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post #81 of 163
Thanks Lisa,

My 'out of context' question came from Heartlight's post where she said:

"They occasionally have the gall to imply that Steiner or the schools are somehow racist, based on out-of-context statements attributed to Steiner or the ominous color theory."

I just couldn't see how such a comment could be made in a context that would be acceptable, and wanted clarification.

Thanks for all your efforts and time in answering these questions. The link was very informative.
post #82 of 163
Britishmum,

First of all, I am not the best person to defend Rudolf Steiner (or Waldorf education, for that matter). I haven't read any of his work (yet), but do know Steiner is well published. I know he believed in humanity and love and kindness. He did not espouse hate of any kind.

But I think it may also help to remember this country's own evolution when condemning someone as a racist. (Would you discount all of Thomas Jefferson's ideas because he owned slaves?) Rudolf Steiner was born in 1861 and died in 1925. That is the context in which any questionable statements should be judged. (Remember that this country had institutionalized racism until the 1960's, if not later.)

The more important question to me is how Waldorf schools conduct themselves. Waldorf schools promote diversity (giving financial aid to encourage it) and do not condone or engage in institutional racism. On the contrary! I have read many books and visited many schools (my daughter attends one) and I know there is no hidden agenda. If I had any hint that there was, I would not hesitate to withdraw my daughter, and I certainly would not continue this debate.

There is another Waldorf list that is not maintained by those who wish to bash Waldorf education. A search of its archives can reveal the other side to the critics' claims. For example, see http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa....dorf&P=R12227. This post addresses claims of anti-semitism and racism. People interested in other questions can perform searches of the archives and get information from people more knowledgeable than me. They can also subscribe to the Waldorf list and post questions of their own, if they are so inclined. Then they can get the other side to the story.

I really think it is a shame that such a beautiful educational method comes under such vicious attacks.
post #83 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by heartlight

I really think it is a shame that such a beautiful educational method comes under such vicious attacks.
That's interesting. What is it that you find so beautiful?

a
post #84 of 163
Heartlight - thank you for the link.

I don't see this sort of discussion as making attacks on a system, but opening it up to debate. I believe that any educational system needs to be able to stand up to such scrutiny.

Somebody mentioned in one of these discussions (I can't recall who) that it is a shame that Waldorf education is coming to the fore in this information age, as it enables people to set up websites to criticise it. I don't see that the information age should be any threat to any worthwhile educational system. On the contrary, it should be of great assistance in spreading the word! If advocates of a system fear information being freely available and different viewpoints given, then there is something very wrong.

I believe that we should let the cynics be cynical and the critics be critical, and see how the system stands up to such scrutiny.
post #85 of 163
I'm with you Britishmum! I am finding this conversation fascinating and very informative. There are a few people in my life who have been closely associated with Waldorf schools in the past and I am now very eager to ask them about their experiences. It is too bad that some people get so defensive when the opinions of others conflict with their own.
post #86 of 163
ITA

I find, once again that I am total agreement with BM.

a
post #87 of 163
I would love to see a debate about Waldorf Education and a thorough exploration of Anthroposophy by people who *care* about the future of Waldorf schools.

What bothers me about the most vocal critics is that they are lashing out in anger based on bad personal experiences and therefore cannot be trusted to paint the whole picture any more that we can trust the die-hard Anthroposophists.

If you really resonate with what Waldorf offers, go try it out- ask questions. Find a good school- there are many, many out there. Many schools deliver what they say they are, a beautiful, soulful education.

If you like the PR but think Steiner is bizarre, what should you do? Whine? Whine over the internet? Create a website and whine? Attract other whiners so you can all whine ever louder and in unison. Whine your "points" over and over and over ad nauseum? Please, forgive the people who hurt you and put your precious life's energy into something you can really feel good about. Something other than angrily tearing someone elses work down.

The question stands:

WHAT CAN YOU DO TO CREATE SOMETHING BETTER? IF YOU WERE SO ATTRACTED TO WALDORF EDUCATION IN THE FIRST PLACE, THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SOMETHING GOOD THERE.

Step outside of your need to do the whole expose thing and find the real human good in the Waldorf movement and see what you can *build* from that. Find the good in all the Waldorf materials and work with that. Create a Neo-Waldorf movement. (What a great idea!) Or just forget about Waldorf.

Be your own visionary, or at least put down the axe.

Visualize beautiful things.
post #88 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by isis
What bothers me about the most vocal critics is that they are lashing out in anger based on bad personal experiences and therefore cannot be trusted to paint the whole picture any more that we can trust the die-hard Anthroposophists.
No. Of course we can't. Their job is to critisize, not trumpet the cause!

And that is why the debate is useful. We see each other's view, and trust ourselves to construct the picture.

We should not ever trust any group / person to put the "ballenced" picture. That is our job as recipients of open debate.

a
post #89 of 163

Creating something better? I'm trying

Hello to everyone!

Once again, I want to thank the folks at "Mothering" for hosting such an informative, lively and mostly congenial debate/discussion on this board. As I mentioned earlier, there are precious few places on the internet where such debate is allowed and even encouraged. Someone here suggested that readers of this thread check out the discussions on the SJU list. When and if you do, please note that SJU is the *official* Waldorf education discussion list and debate and probing questions are not encouraged there. In fact, people who ask too many questions or who stir up too much debate are unsubscribed. (If you don't believe me, please read the list description. It states that a general approval of Waldorf is expected of all subscribers. People who probe too much or disagree with the "party" line are either kicked off or the moderator closes the thread. Not exactly "free and open" discussion!)

That is why the Waldorf Critics' List was started. It is, I believe, the single place on the Web where people can openly debate the pros and cons of Waldorf education. And if you think that the list is ONLY for critics, well, you haven't spent any time there! I have been on the list for about 4 years (came on as a Waldorf advocate!) and much of that time, there have been equal number of critics and advocates engaging in often-heated but almost always interesting discussions.

Someone here -- was it heartlight? -- commented that "there must be something good" about Waldorf if even the critics were attracted to it. My response is, once again, that I don't condemn or even criticize everything about Waldorf. (In fact, I once started a thread on the critics list called "What I Like About Waldorf Education!") For the record, I like the emphasis on play in the nursery and kindergarten; the lovely wooden, wool, cotton and silk toys and play frames; the baking and cooking; the tradition of storytelling; the fact that children of both genders learn to knit and sew and play the recorder; that children play outside in most kinds of weather.

The things I do not like is long, and include: Waldorf teachers often have little to no training beyond the Waldorf seminary course they are required to take; Waldorf child development theory has not changed in more than 80 years and is not based on modern understanding of how humans develop and learn; Waldorf pretends to be flexible, but is in fact rigid; children who *want* to and *can* read before the age of 7 to 9 are actively discouraged from doing so, and made to feel ashamed; Waldorf teachers often attempt to discourage children from critical thinking before the age of 14, because that is what Steiner said: the "artwork" done in Waldorf schools in nursery through at least grade 4 is not really "art" at all, but a series of rigidly dictated spiritual exercises aimed not at allowing expression of creativity, but at putting the child in touch with the supersensible world; Waldorf science is not the science accepted by the mainstream community; myth is taught as fact; punishment and discipline often are "medieval," and include shaming children by placing dunce caps on their head, making children stand in front of the class with their "silver swords" (arms) crossed over their chests, or having them turn their shirts inside out; Waldorf teachers' belief in karma can prevent them from intervening in bullying situations ....

Underlying ALL OF THIS is my basic complaint, which is that Waldorf schools do not disclose to parents the full truth about the education and training that the schools offer, which is this: Waldorf schools are the parochial schools of Anthroposophy. Just as Catholic schools teach and guide children according to the tenets set forth by the Roman Catholic church, so do Waldorf schools teach and guide children according to tenets set forth by Steiner's church. The difference? Roman Catholic schools OPENLY ASSERT their philosophy with signs and crucifixes and openly garbed (often) clergy. They believe in their philosophy and methods, and describe them openly.

Waldorf schools, however, pretend to be non-sectarian. Parents of all -- or no -- religious faith or path are told that the school is suitable. If Waldorf was open and honest about its strict adherence to "Steiner says," well, then people such as myself would avoid it, and there would be no Waldorf critics. (Or at least, very few.) I am convinced that if Waldorf would stand up and proudly proclaim the truth, parents would flock to enroll their children! Even Eugene Schwartz (Waldorf master teacher, author of "Millenial Child" and a major force in the Waldorf movement) agrees. He has said, in public, that Waldorf schools need to own who they are, and to tell parents that children at the schools will have "one religious experience after the other." At the now-famous 1999 Sunbridge College lecture. Schwartz basically warned his fellows in the Waldorf movement that even parents who do not have the whole truth know, instinctively, that something is going on of which they have not been told.

People I know who have worked in Waldorf schools -- both as teachers and as teachers' aides -- have talked about how faculty at the schools work to keep parents who are unaware of the depths of anthroposophy in the school from delving too deeply. One statement sticks out in my mind. "Parents who are not anthros. just can't handle the truth," she said. "They'd be scared away if they knew teachers made decisions about their kids by what's revealed in their nightly meditations on the child's destiny. They wouldn't get it and they wouldn't like it. So we don't tell them." Another former teacher said that she was told that as long as she did not dedicate her life to Steiner, she would not be accepted by the rest of the teachers. Another one told me that she was disturbed by the way parents and children were talked about in faculty meetings, which are closed to parents. "Parents were looked at as baggage that the teachers had to carry to do their job with the children," she told me. She remembered how other teachers at her school spoke of a child conceived through in-vitro fertilization as "not quite human." "They said {the child} was 'transparent, without a real soul,'" she said.

By joining the ever-growing public outcry for Waldorf schools to be honest about who they are, I believe I *am* doing what I can to create better Waldorf schools. Yes, I was attracted to Waldorf schools, but I was attracted by deceptive advertising. If Waldorf schools delivered what they offered -- a progressive, arts based, non-sectarian education -- I would not be spending an hour writing this. My children would still be at their former school. I could use this time for something else. Unfortunately, that is not the case. So here I am.

Lisa
post #90 of 163
Not much to add because British Mum and Alexander seem to articulate my feelings/thoughts on a very consistent basis and I don't wish to introduce too much redundancy onto the thread . . .

Thanks and encouragement to those who continue to offer their personal experiences, convey information, and impart knowledge in the face of sharp criticism and discouragement.

This discussion has been immensely helpful to me in that it has brought to my attention the fact that I need to do a great deal of research and investigating before determining the course of my daughter's education.

Quote:
First of all, I am not the best person to defend Rudolf Steiner (or Waldorf education, for that matter). I haven't read any of his work (yet), but do know Steiner is well published. I know he believed in humanity and love and kindness. He did not espouse hate of any kind.
Heartlight, I do appreciate your posts as well. I question, respectfully, how you can know what Steiner believed if you haven't read any of his work?

Mary
post #91 of 163
a,

Thanks for the idea. I think I'll start a thread about the wonderful things about Waldorf education.

Mary,
I have not read any books authored by Steiner, but many of the books I have read quote him extensively and discuss his philosophy. And I'm pretty confident that if he actually espoused hate, we'd be hearing about it from the critics!
post #92 of 163
Man #1 is walking down the street. He smells the aroma of well-made pizza, walks into the pizza parlor and orders a pizza with everything on it. He has had pizza before so he knows what to expect. Sits down, eats the pizza and is satisfied. Goes home.

Man #2 is walking down the street. He smells the aroma of well-made pizza. Difference is, in his secluded country they don't have pizzas. The smell is good and he is hungry so he goes in. They ask if he wants everything on it. He is hungry and is feeling open so he says yes. Then he sits down to eat his pizza. He takes his first bite and is SHOCKED to find olives. They don't eat olives in his country. He takes another bite and is HORRIFIED to find pepperoni- they are vegetarians in his country. With his third bite he finds pineapple and that is the last straw! He storms up to the counter, airs his grievances and demands the list of ingredients (which had been posted in the window the whole time) and claims that he was tricked into eating the pizza by the suspiciously attractive aroma.

The clerk behind the counter has been helping to make these pizzas for years, spent a lot of love and sweat to help create the parlor and keep it going. She struggles to be composed, and says simply: "YOU ordered the pizza."

Question: should man #2 quit his job, move nextdoor and spend all his time going though the garbage bins behind the pizza parlor?
post #93 of 163
Isis, an interesting analogy.

I think what some people are pointing out is that sometimes the pizza contents are not posted honestly on the shop window. I can't comment on this, not having personal experience, but it seems reasonable to me to warn others to do their research. If their research throws up nothing that worries them, great. If it throws up things that put them off using a school, that's great too.

As I said before, no system should worry about people going through their 'garbage'. If the system stands up to such scrutiny, there is no need to worry. If it doesn't, such scrutiny will serve one of two purposes. It may inform the individual, who may inform others, or it may cause the system to want to make changes within.

Why would you worry about a system that you approve of being scrutinised, or criticised? Feedback is the way that we learn, it is not always comfortable, but it is ultimately a positive thing.
post #94 of 163
Actually, my problem with the critics is not based on their scrutiny, but on the attempts to scour the world's 800 or so (I'm pretty sure that's a correct ballpark number) Waldorf schools, and find stories of the worst possible instances. Then they try to paint the "problems" as being pervasive or representative of the situation everywhere. I see that as malicious.

For me it's more like if Isis's analogy included Man #2 finding what he thought was a cockroach in his pizza, broadcasting that he found a cockroach in his pizza and that therefore no one should buy pizza from anyplace in the world which makes pizza in a similar fashion because it contains cockroaches. In fact, he gathers information from all over the world and whenever he hears of someone else who has had a bad experience with pizza, he uses this to proclaim that all pizza is disgusting. (By the way, if I found a cockroach in my pizza, I certainly wouldn't eat pizza from that place again. And I would carefully inspect pizza I bought from anywhere else before eating it too! But I wouldn't spend my life on a slander campaign trying to ruin the pizza industry.)
post #95 of 163

cockroaches in pizza/deception in Waldorf

"heartlight" and others,

Comparing critics of Waldorf education with folks who just h ad the misfortune to find a cockroach in their pizza is not a very accurate of true analogy.

Try this for a better one: You're on the road and you're hungry. You see a very pretty, bright sign that says "Vegetarian fare."
You go inside, sit down, and ask for a menu. You enjoy looking at all the healthy and -- you hope! -- tasty offerings. The waiter comes over and you order a big green salad and a loaf of crunchy French bread, along with iced tea. Then you sit back and wait for your meal.
Some time later, the waiter returns. He places in front of you a plate containing a big, fat, juicy cheeseburger, a mound of french fries and a Coke.
"Wait a second," you say. "This is not what I ordered! I ordered a salad, some bread and ice tea. "
The waiter looks at you as if you are crazy. "Well, that's not what we serve here," he tells you. "We only serve cheeseburgers, fries and Coca-Cola."
"That's insane!" you cry. "It says on the sign outside that you are a vegetarian restaurant. How can you say you are a vegetarian restaurant, when you serve meat!!!"
The waiter shrugs. "You should have known ahead of time that that is what we serve," he says. "It's your fault you didn't know."

Now *that* is a more accurate analogy. Waldorf schools -- and I use the plural on purpose -- are like a chain of restaurants that hang up a sign offering one thing and then deliver another.

As much as heartlight and others here claim to the contrary, MY experience is far, far from unique. It is not just a case of one upset parent, or one patron with a fly in her soup. Far from it. What is most striking about those who have issues with Waldorf schools is the variety of schools from which they come, and the fact that those schools are located all over the world. I am personally acquainted with critics from the East Coast, from the mid-West, from the West Coast, from Canada, from France, Germany, Holland and Brazil. Our experiences, and those of our children, are VERY SIMILAR or the SAME, because Waldorf is a system that has amazing uniformity. Waldorf schools all over the world are run basically the same way -- by a faculty that is required by charter to be comprised mostly of anthroposophists -- and according to the same teachings: those of Rudolf Steiner. Which is why a mother of children in Brazil can discuss what happened to her children with a mother from Washington State, US and a parent in Canada, and they all shiver in recognition at what the other is saying.

Frankly, Heartlight, I don't know that I can ever convince you that I was once in your shoes, and that is is not a flaming anger at Waldorf education that drives me to speak out at what I think is wrong with the Waldorf system. Instead, I am driven by a desire to prevent what happened to my children -- and to those of many, many, many others -- from happening to yours! I realize I am saying things that you don't want to hear; it is much easier to believe that Waldorf schools are the utopian places that they advertise themselves to be than it is to hear unpleasant things. (I well remember when I came onto the Waldorrf critics list as a Waldorf supporter. I basically thought that everyone who was criticizing Waldorf just had an unfortunate experience at his or her particular school and was taking his or her "sour grapes" out on the rest of us, who loved Waldorf. How I wish that were true.)

People are, of course, free to believe what they want to believe. I ask only that parents considering Waldorf look at the whole picture, which includes what I and other critics have to say. Once you have, you may well decide that Waldorf *is* the absolute best place for your child. In that case, you have made your decision with your eyes wide open, and you will be fully cognizant of the fact that anthroposophy drives everything about Waldorf, from what snacks children eat on what day to the color of the classroom walls to the stories told in each grade. You will know in advance that the science offered is not the same as science recognized throughout the world (the National Council on Science Education says Waldorf is teaching the worst superstition) and that if your child wants to think critically before the age of 14 or to read before the age of at least 7, he or she will be discouraged from doing so and that the school may suggest "curative eurythmy" to stop this abberant behavior. You will already be aware that teachers will conduct a "child study" on your child and that you will not be allowed to read or to listen to the results. You will know that decisions about your child may be made based upon his or her Zodiac sign, "temperment" and "karma." You won't be surprised to learn that Waldorf teachers believe in gnomes and fairies, because you will already know.

If all of those things -- and too many more here to list -- are OK with you, then Waldorf would be a good fit. (Well, unless your child is gifted or learning disabled, but that is another post.) I am not OK with those things, just as I would not be OK with my children receiving a Catholic education where they would be taught to believe in the tenets of the Catholic church.

I am asking only for what is right, and that is for Waldorf schools to fully inform parents before they enroll.

If Waldorf schools did so, I wouldn't have to.

Lisa
post #96 of 163
Maybe others are fooled, but I am not. Lisa, let's face it PLANS (aren't you the VP?) are on a smear campaign because they ;/ are mad and want to gather as many others as they ;/ can find and exact revenge.



Let's put this into perspective.

Waldorf schools are PRIVATE.
No one HAS to enroll their children.
Everyone is FREE to read Rudolf Steiner and make their own choices.
post #97 of 163
........and free to read about the experiences of others, good and bad?
........and free to write or talk about their experiences, good and bad?

Why is such a discussion a 'smear campaign', any more than the criticisms of public schools, or government, or any other 'system'?

I am not on either side of the fence on Waldorf, just interested to hear others' views and discuss. It seems to me that there is some good in the system, and some questionable practices. But this attitude of being upset by honest criticism concerns me and makes me wonder if the system is incapable of standing up to scrutiny?

Personally, I'd prefer to hear what people view as the good in the system, rather than attacks on those who disagree.
post #98 of 163
Heartlight and Isis (and other Waldorf supporters),

I have not done my own research on Waldorf/Steiner/anthroposophy so have not yet developed an informed opinion.

That being said, I am interested in the supporters addressing specific concerns and complaints that Lisa has clearly outlined in her posts.

Can you give textual evidence that the philosophies Lisa attributes to Rudolf Steiner are incorrect? Or how about factual or empirical evidence that the manner in which she contends anthroposophy manifests itself in the Waldorf classroom is inaccurate?

To begin with, can you explain/refute/rebut the following? (to paraphrase a bit)

--Rudolf Steiner's promotion of the idea that blond hair and blue eyes are linked to superior intelligence and that the darker races are not only less intelligent but also less spiritually evolved.

--That Waldorf teachers belief in karma can prevent them from intervening in a 'bullying' situation between students.

--That the science offered at Waldorf is not the same as the science recognized throughout the world (the National Council on Science Education claims that Waldorf is teaching the worst superstition).

--Rudolf Steiner's belief that dark colors, especially black, are less spiritually acceptable and that for this reason are not permitted to be used by younger children in Waldorf schools. And that those children with black hair and dark skin color are not allowed to accurately depict their own images using these colors.

These are just a few, but provide a starting point. Lisa has taken the time to itemize quite a number of complaints against Waldorf education, so there are many to choose from and address. I would like to see this happen.

Thanks,
Mary
post #99 of 163
As I've said before, I am not the best person to answer such questions. Also, it is pretty hard to prove the non-existence of something. I don't think Lisa has proved anything either.

Anyway, I will reiterate that there is a Waldorf list, of which I gave the web address for the archives: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/waldorf.html. If you have concerns on these issues, you may search for the answers there yourself. You can also go to Lisa's website for the critics point of view. Better yet, go to your local school if you want answers to particular questions that could affect your child. I have already done all of these things and satisfied myself. I do not care to dignify these claims further by addressing each one. The information is easily accessible for those interested.
post #100 of 163
I am interested in seeing this conversation continue, but I am concerned about personal attacks that have taken place throughout this thread. I asked that we all be gentle with each other, but I've noticed personal attacks have continued to be an issue.

I will just ask that everyone please go back and edit any posts you may have that contain possible personal attacks. If this thread does not continue with gentleness and respect, I will need to close it.

That doesn't mean that the discussion has to end. It simply means that new threads on various subjects that have been brought up on this thread will need to be opened. Actually, this thread is getting long enough that it might do us some good to close it anyway, just to ease reading. But I would like attacks to be edited in any case.

Thank you all for your help in keeping these boards a safe and gentle place to discuss these important issues.

Sierra
(your mod)
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