Is either WOH *or* SAH part of NFL?

[Seasons]

This is a sincere question, in the context of my true bafflement about what is "allowed" here (as well as various statements in various threads saying that SAH and/or homeschooling is part of NFL).

Cynthia says in post #6 of the "how do you know you belong at mdc?" thread in this Q&A forum*, that

We want the forums to represent the spirit of Mothering, not anything and everything that works for others.

Well, it seems from Mothering magazine, including the weekly Mothering email and its promos ("Stayin' Home and Lovin' It," for example) that Mothering has a definite, pro stance on (1) mothers/parents staying home with children, perhaps working from home, versus working outside the home, (2) childcare being performed by parents and secondarily extended family, and (3) homeschooling (versus outside-the-home schooling). I don't read Mothering any more, because the families there don't look anything like mine. Those emails, too, seem aimed at families other than mine; I don't see ads/articles about pumping, or dating after becoming a mom, or choosing the best daycare. This is not a criticism of Mothering/MDC -- I read the UA and know I'm not allowed to do that in a thread -- but merely my explanation of why I sincerely question what Mothering's opinion of WOHMs is, because I don't see families like mine in Mothering.

MDC includes a WOHM forum, and that seems to mean that "Mothering's spirit" includes working moms, but, well, without criticizing, I'll just say that other mamas have been surprised by the rules here lately, so I thought I'd better ask, here in the right place for questions. It's kinda like having a friend whom you thought truly supported your choice to have a career as well as kids, but then you find out that the friend merely pities you, and is refraining from citicizing you because she figures you "have to" work and don't really have a choice.

So I'm asking for specific reassurance that Mothering magazine either specifically approves of moms working outside the home (and using commercial daycare, as I do, and eventually commercial schools), or that Mothering specifically takes NO stance on whether mothers should WOH and/or use commercial daycare.

Are working moms celebrated here? (“Be the best WOMAN you can – be a mom AND a professional!”) Merely tolerated? (“We at Mothering encourage informed decision-making regarding vaccinations, and we actively lobby against them, but we believe individual families must decide the issue for themselves based on their particular circumstances. Similarly, we believe children should be with their parents as much as possible, but if a particular family can’t or won’t do that, we allow discussion of balancing home and work.”) Discouraged? (“Just as we’d strongly prefer you suggest – to a member who asks - aloe rather than Coppertone, we strongly prefer you SAH rather than work, use relatives for occasional childcare rather than use commercial daycares, and homeschool rather than use public schools. We permit peer moderators to restrict your advocacy of Coppertone, working, etc., as not within the spirit of NFL – but we won’t outright ban such talk.")

I looked for a Mothering statement of principles and saw, on the website,

Mothering celebrates the experience of parenthood as worthy of one's best efforts and fosters awareness of the immense importance and value of parenthood and family life in the development of the full human potential.

I looked at the MDC UA and saw

MDC serves an online community of parents and parents-to-be considering, learning, practicing, and advocating attachment parenting and natural family living. Our discussions on the boards are about the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support and information.

Neither seems to answer my Q: does “natural family living” include WOH, commercial daycare and public schools?

*is it okay to quote CM herself, from another thread, as long as I'm not discussing that thread, and I'm not criticzing a mod decision? I just re-read the UA and it SEEMS okay...

Again, this thread ISN'T a criticism, just a query, please.

[Cynthia Mosher]

Are you expecting a response from me? Or is this a discussion you want to have with the general community?

[Seasons]

It's a query to you, posted as a public thread because i suspect other members may be interested in the answer.

[Cynthia Mosher]

This feels more like something you should ask Peggy O'Mara since she is the ultimate spokesperson for the entity known as Mothering. You could do so in her chat tomorrow. If you can't attend perhaps you can get someone else who will be in attendance to ask for you.

[captain optimism]

If this is helpful, Mothering (print journal) recently ran a very nice article about moms bringing their children to work. It featured the moms of Mothering magazine, wearing their babies in slings and nursing them at their desks.

[Seasons]

I can't attend; would someone PLEASE ask my question for me? Thanks!

Just copy and paste (abbreviated format for chats):

Does NFL address WOH (vs SAH), commercial daycare (vs childcare by relatives) or public schools (vs homeschooling)?

[Seasons]

If this is helpful, Mothering (print journal) recently ran a very nice article about moms bringing their children to work. It featured the moms of Mothering magazine, wearing their babies in slings and nursing them at their desks.

Respectfully, no, that doesn't help, nor the articles about home-based businesses. I work in an "ordinary" office where my child cannot come; my work and home lives are entirely separate. This kind of WOH -- the usual kind -- has its own issues, addressed often in the WOHM forum here, but not in Mothering that I saw. I'm NOT saying Mothering is wrong to ignore women like me; I'm just asking where Mothering stands (in part so I don't say something "wrong" and get banned).

[cozymama]

Ditto Seasons..... bringing your baby to work is an option only availabe to a VERY limited number of women. And it is not the same at WOH and using a daycare. Neither is a woman who WOH and has a SAHD. Each has it's own issues.

Seasons, I can't answer your question, but I'd point out a previous thread (originally in Parenting, but I think ended up somewhere else? Perhaps was locked?) which referenced "data" O'Mara cited relating the severe psychological problems (neurosis and psychosis) of a prolonged seperation between women (only women, not men) and their children under the age of 2 (and then under 5). Although I do not believe O'Mara specifically referenced daycare or WOH, this was implied and assumed by many posters, including myself. I believe it was from a Mothering chat-- actually if anyone knows how to get the transcript.........

[I use the term "data" in quotes because I read the original research the reference came from and believe the study is often poorly understood and interpeted.]

: : : :

[Seasons]

Found the link, displaced*mama ! http://mommychats.com/mothering/peggy2.htm

I think the parts to which you refer are here (quotes by Peggy O'Mara):

The attachment period is the first 3 to 5 years of age. Research shows that if there are severe separations from caregivers in the first three years of life, we get psychosis. In the first five, neurosis. This is in the extreme, but it points to the importance of mother baby contact during the first 3 to 5 years of life.

Quality time is a myth. We need lots of time with the ones we love. What if you said to your friend or husband, Honey, I love ya, but let's just spend some quality time togehter. We don't need to see each other all the time.""

And here is the MDC thread that discussed the chat, specifically the first quote above: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...ight=psychosis

[snoodess]

:

[Seasons]

Was anyone able to ask my, or a similar, question at the chat? Any answer?

If not, (asked to Cynthia or anyone who knows), is there a way to PM or EM Peggy? I'd very much like to know the answer -- especially, but not only, because we're supposed to "represent the spirit of Mothering/NFL" here in the MDC forums, and there are negative consequences for not doing so, but it's not clear what NFL entails (on this issue). I don't know the rules that I've agreed to adhere to.

[mamajama]

I would imagine that since there are forums for WOH, Public Schooling etc that you would not get banned for talking about them here.

[Seasons]

I would imagine that since there are forums for WOH, Public Schooling etc that you would not get banned for talking about them here.

Maybe not, but there's a big difference between the WOHM forum existing like

-- CSection Support, which appears to aim at "CSections are not part of NFL. We at Mothering do NOT promote c-sections and in fact lobby against them, but if a mom has no other choice, then okay, you are permitted to do it and ask for support here, but please no opining that c-sections are a preferable choice in birth."

or like

-- Breastfeeding Support and Advocacy, which appears to aim at "Breastfeeding is part of NFL. We at Mothering actively promote breastfeeding, believe it is best for mother AND child, and we discourage anti-breastfeeding discussion - such as opining that formula is a preferable choice in infant feeding."

You see? Is WOHM encouraged/celebrated/lobbied for here, or is it merely tolerated/pitied and working mothers "supported"? I think it's a fair question for me, as an MDC member, to ask what Mothering represents, and if that includes me.

----------------------
Where is the forum for Public Schooling, btw? I see only "Learning at Home and Beyond," and "Learning At School" - subforums of Waldorf, Montessori, Other & Comparisons.

[mamajama]

Originally Posted by Seasons

or like


You see? Is WOHM encouraged/celebrated/lobbied for here, or is it merely tolerated/pitied and working mothers "supported"? I think it's a fair question for me, as an MDC member, to ask what Mothering represents, and if that includes me.

----------------------
Where is the forum for Public Schooling, btw? I see only "Learning at Home and Beyond," and "Learning At School" - subforums of Waldorf, Montessori, Other & Comparisons.

Oh I was just paraphrasing on the public school thing...sorry. I think it is a fair question to ask what Mothering represents on this issue and I'm interested in a response as well I do think, however, that there would also be a sticky or some such thing in the wohp section that says "we here at Mothering do not support wohp as a choice but rather to be done only in the most dire circumstances....etc" (or some such other mallarky.) But there isn't. I try to live by the motto (one of my faves) "better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission" I do see your point though.

[kaydee]

Originally Posted by Seasons

Is WOHM encouraged/celebrated/lobbied for here, or is it merely tolerated/pitied and working mothers "supported"? I think it's a fair question for me, as an MDC member, to ask what Mothering represents, and if that includes me.

I would be very very VERY interested in hearing the official Mothering and/or MDC responses to this question.

I think there are some parents here who consider themselves AP & NFL who clearly believe that mamas should be home with their children, and that anything other than mama's care is sub-par.

Other parents here seem to believe that parents can work ouside the home and employ quality child care and that there is no conflict between this and AP & NFL.

There may be no standard definition of AP & NFL, but what is Mothering and MDC's definition?

[Medusa]

Excellent question Seasons! I too would love to hear an official statement.

[LukesMommy]

Can I quote a quote? Seasons, you quoted Peggy O'Mara saying:

Quote:
Quality time is a myth. We need lots of time with the ones we love. What if you said to your friend or husband, Honey, I love ya, but let's just spend some quality time togehter. We don't need to see each other all the time.

And I honestly thought, "Hey, that's not a bad idea!" (the telling your significant other that you don't need to see each other all the time)! :LOL

In any case, I, too, am interested in MDC's official position on WOH and daycare and public schooling.

Although it doesn't necessarily apply to me, it applies to my belief that mothers are not just mothers, they are women, too, and by being well-rounded human beings, they teach their children a valuable lesson. For each woman, a choice exists (in an ideal world) to WOH, SAH, or WAH. I don't think anybody should be criticized for their decision (or, even more so, for their necessity, if that's the case) to WOH! Judgements of character based on personal life choices are hard for me to swallow...

[nonconformnmom]

Ummmm ... and if I may be so bold, what about mothers who work while the father is the stay at home caregiver? Is the NFL/ Mothering stance that 'anyone other than the mother' is sub-par? Or that anyone other than a parent is sub-par?

Personally, I do not feel myself as any less of an attachment parent because I work outside of the home. We have made many sacrifices to ensure that a parent is at home caring for our children. It just so happens that I have the greater salary and advancement potential of the two of us, so my husband quit his job to be the primary at-home caregiver.

(I'm asking in all sincerity -- not trying to be snotty or anything. Being new here, I certainly don't want to get off on the wrong foot! )

[Black Orchid]

Doesn't the existance of the "working mothers" and "Learning outside the home" forums indicate MDC's support for families who do these things? Or is there some unsupportive sentiment being sensed?

I am working mama, have posted in that forum and my DD will probaby be in a school eventually. I don't think that makes me less attached... Maybe less natural in the sense that I am not with her for part of the day, but I would think that even in primitive societies there are/were women who tended to the children (babies and teaching) and women who did other work in the community based on their skills...

Also, not every human is based with the same strengths and personality. In our home, my DH was much better with my DD when she was colicky and he has much mroe patience with toddlerhood than I do. It is partly because of my upbrining, but also because our personalities are different. So, my working and his SAHPing is the right thing for us in that it uses maximizes our strengths and makes for a better home. How can it not be natural to do that?

Anyway, I guess my point is that I'm wondering where this question is coming from... is there some vibe here that I'm not getting?

[Seasons]

Or is there some unsupportive sentiment being sensed?

Now, this is just MY opinion, just MY sense. (I DON'T know MDC/Mothering's opinion/policy; that's why I'm asking.) But I've seen an increase in comments, across several MDC forums, stating that SAH/homeschooling is an integral part of NFL, that WOH is "not NFL," that WOH/daycare/public schools are all worse for children than those services provided by moms [the comments I read all said "moms," not "parents"]. I'm not going to quote these other comments -- that would be against the User Agreement -- but *I* have seen a lot, and it's on the increase.

Then Cynthia Mosher, chief of MDC, states that these forums should "represent the spirit of Mothering," which is a pro-NFL magazine, and I note that the User Agreement says that MDC is for "attachment parenting and natural family living." But NFL isn't defined anywhere that I can see. And that's odd -- shouldn't a parenting philosophy address something -- work -- that is so much a part of every family's life? (Not that every individual in every family works. But everyone is impacted by work, from the adult who chooses to be a part of her larger community & be a role model for her children by being a paid professional as well as a parent, to the adult who chooses to parent full-time but who relies on another person's work to do so, to children who see parents working and form opinions about their own future work and may experience daycare because of parents' work.)

Then there are some, um, other questions raised -- again, I won't cite to other threads because that's against the rules -- about what is within NFL, and what is allowed at MDC. There's been some confusion on several issues.

So I posted this thread. And then I was reminded of the Mothering publisher's public comments that seemed to me to directly oppose WOH and daycare. And I thought again, hmmm. Why isn't the statement of whether (Mothering's view of) NFL is inclusive of WOH, posted anywhere? (Maybe it is, and I'm just blind. But others on this thread seem like they don't know it, either.)

Sorry for the soapbox -- I really intended this as a sincere question thread -- but you asked why I posted the thread, and it does have a complex history.