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Is either WOH *or* SAH part of NFL? - Page 6

post #101 of 209
... I don't think you can decide to be a parent and refuse to do what's necessary to be the best parent. Choices to me is being able to decide when I want to leave my career to have children or whether I want to have them at all. You can have it all but there's good, better and best. It seems to me that AP and NFL is all about being the best and in tune to what's natural to use as your guide. It is not natural to abandon babies and children at such a young age even though many people now believe it is.
I suppose I should just take the money I've been saving to adopt and go buy something frivolous for myself, since I'm apparently selfish for wanting (needing - it seems like a need to me) to be a mother without being independently wealthy or having a husband to support me so I can stay home. (And no, WIC and welfare are not options after adopting internationally.) : Or maybe I should go buy a lottery ticket. Spill hot coffee on myself and sue? Buy a tent, become a nudist breatharian and teach my child to be too? My personality doesn't lend itself to working freelance, and we have to have food and shelter...

I will be a good mother, as AP as I can be. I will carefully choose the best caregivers I can afford. I will be a mom, and I refuse to feel guilty about working to support my child!

I come here (and have lurked for years) to learn and to grow. I will continue to come here for those same reasons.

I respect sahm's, and I think wohm's deserve EQUAL respect, no matter what their situation is. All of us here do the best we can, and shouldn't be made to feel guilty for that. We are not in any way "abandoning" our children!
post #102 of 209
Originally Posted by sweetbaby3
As i was reading this thread again, something occured to me. What occured to me was this thank God my husband doesnt lurk here, he would be crushed to think that perfect strangers, people who are completely clueless, would be so critical of me, our parenting and his ability to nurture. For the last ten years, i have worked either at night, or the weekends, while my husband was home, more commonly known as "tag team". This arrangement was so our children were either in my care or his, and on my days off, both of us. We sacrificed alot, so our kids could be in the care of either parent. My husband who was brought up in one of the most dysfunctional homes one can imagine (including really being *ABANDONED* by his own father) took great pride in his ability to parent alone with our me as his security blanket. To really know what each cry meant, what the subtle nuances of nuturing really mean. That he could comfort and rock our babies, to heat the breast milk to just the right temperature. To help with homework while carrying the baby in a football hold. That he was able to keep the kids on some sort of routine, and most importantly that he was so much more than just a paycheck.

So to those of you who think i am wrong and criticize me, my husband and his ability to parent and nurture simply beacuse he cant lactate, as my beloved grandma would say (and she was a working mom before it was the fashion, after WW2) go fly a kite.

Amen, sister
post #103 of 209
post #104 of 209
Thread Starter 
Note that there is a similar thread, inspired by this one, going on in Working Mamas: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=292200

Neither Cynthia Mosher nor Peggy O'Mara has posted in that thread, either, but FWIW, moderator lauren posts at #27 on page 2 of the thread. I'm never sure how much authority mods have to speak about official Mothering policy. (Note that on page 1 of THIS thread, Cynthia says that it -- my question -- is one for Peggy O'Mara directly.)

Anyway, some moms in the other thread have some great perspectives and ideas to add.

(I'm not criticizing another thread, just citing it, and favorably, so I *think* I'm still within the User Agreement. I'm never quite sure about that stuff.)

Back on topic: my preschooler can now say (partly because of my boyfriend's coaching) that "Mommy has a great job! Mommy's a ____!" I'm pretty darned honored by her pride in me. And someday I hope she'll similarly boast about herself using "mommy" and "job"* in the same sentence.

*[or another, perhaps unpaid, responsibility such as church/volunteering, showing her awareness of herself as a woman in a larger community, before, after and during her nursing years -- such as performed by the many terrific SAHMs I know]
post #105 of 209
I want to add my voice to this discussion as a WOHM (well, still in classes but WOH )

I have not felt like I dont belong here because my dd is in daycare - its been other aspects of my life that made me feel less-than-in-the-crunchy-crowd. But this is such a large community and while there are those who dont believe moms should work, I just see them as part of the holier-than-thou group that thinks themselves above reproach.

For the most part I have learned so much by reading the posts here. I honestly can say that I am a better mother because of MDC. I would have not known where to begin with GD, for example. And because my time is so precious, I have learned more here in 1/2 hour of reading than I would have reading a single book.

I am used to not quite fitting in anywhere. But this is the only place that I know of where I can say that dd has never slept alone, that at 2 she still nurses to sleep and that we dont believe in punishment without anyone thinking Im

AP WOHM are a rare breed. We need a place to and lick our wounds.
post #106 of 209
Huh. And also wow. And a lot of other word-less reactions. There's a lot of pain here, and thus, not surprisingly, a lot of beauty. It's been a trip, following this thread; thank you.

I want to revisit the formula comparison. The problem as I'm seeing, the reason there's so much animosity, is that there are those, apparently including many of the PTBs here, who do see WOHMing (and again, I'm not hearing any complaints from that side about WOHParenting in general) the same way many of us see formula feeding. They see it as not just "SAHMing is best" (which I also disagree with, but at least allows wiggle room) but "this way is good; all other ways are bad, if sometimes necesary".

And reading some replies to that accusation (that WOHMing is never good) read exactly like many defenses of formula feeding. And when it comes to formula, those defenses are just wrong, so it's easy for those who feel the same about formula and WOHM to apply the same types of filters, if you will. To make the same judgments.

And I think they're wrong. Formula is never as good as the real thing; WOHMing and SAHMing don't exist on real/not real (or, for that matter, natural/unnatural) continuum, so there isn't a clear and obvious better choice. So a defense of a choice to be a WOHM can sound exactly like a defense to choose formula feeding and still be a valid, truthful, accurate statement and the defense of formula be wrong.

But I think that's the difference. That's the source of the vehemence. There are those of us who think SAHMing is "real" mothering, and anything that involves WOHMing is less-than, and there are those of us who think that it's not that binary.

I don't know that we can, any of us, change each other's minds. I don't think the evidence is there, the way it is with nursing, so support SAHMing as an absolute, and I know it isn't there to support WOHMing or daycare as an absolute either (because it's not an absolute). But I do know that persuading someone who is believes in an absolute to see complexities about that issue is practically impossible.

Not that I think this should stop us from trying, nor should this stop us from getting what we can out of a place like MDC.

I don't know. I just thought it was a striking similarity, and I guess I'm hoping someone wiser than I can use this to help us heal this wound between us.

I have to stop tweaking this, so I'm sorry if there are any problems; bees are trying to fly in my window.
post #107 of 209
Sorry if I repeat what someone else already said, I haven't had a chance to read every reply...

I'm so sad to hear all the negative things regarding WOHM's. I'm a SAHM right now, but I used to be a WOHM. Both are tough, but I feel like we're doing the same job...being a mommy. Why does it always come down to whose doing the better job raising the kids- the WOHM's or the SAHM's? I definately see pros and cons to each. After doing both I honestly couldn't tell you which is "better", but I do know that I've made my decisions based on what's best for MY family. I see SAHM's whose kids are terrible (behavioral wise and emotional wise) and have seen WOHM's whose kids are wonderful, loving, kind, etc. I just wish we could all get over ourselves and support each other in the toughest job anyone could ever have...being a mommy.

That being said...I used to work in a daycare in the toddler room and I've been a nanny for 4 different families (all with kids under 4). I've always loved the fact that I could be a part of loving those children while they were separated from their moms. I don't feel like I ever took on the role of mom, I don't think anyone could ever replace a mom. I felt really appreciative/blessed/lucky that these mamas let me take care of their most beloved "possession"- their children. I know that even though these women worked, that they didn't love their children any less than a mom who stayed home. I hope that the kids I took care of learned that their are other people out in the world that can love them/nurture them/teach them. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense, but I just want you guys to know that as someone who used to care for other people's kids, I did not take that responsibility lightly.

I hope you WOHM's stay at MDC. We can all learn so much from each other.

post #108 of 209
The ugly myth of the SAHM.

In many "tribal" societies, 3 year olds are taking care of 1 year olds. It isn't all crafts and playgroups. Adults work, small babies are slung, and the rest of the kids tend to each other. Life is hard.

I SAH, because it makes most sense for our family. My dh would be an amazing SAHD. It offends me to hear people claim a dad could never be good enough. My dd's dad IS.

And while I am the primary caregiver, my dd has shown a NEED to have other adults in her life. All three of her grandparents, and several close friends of mine, are a major part of her life. She loves to spend time with these people. She'd absolutely thrive if any of these people cared for her while I worked. She loves them. They love her. They *add* to her life.

Obviously we can all think of less-than-ideal daycare scenarios, but we can also think of plenty daycare scenarios that serve children well.
post #109 of 209
Originally Posted by singermom
Asherah, you are one of the reasons I stay.

Me too.
post #110 of 209
I am very sad that there has not been an official response to this thread. I am especially sad to read that it looks like Mothering does not support the individual choices made by women (and men) in our society about whether to work or stay at home.

Originally Posted by guerrillamama
I do NOT think babies can only be attached to one person.
EXACTLY!!!!! Not only is it possible for babies to attach to more than one person, I think it is very unnatural for a baby/child to form an attachment to only one person. And I think it is ludicrous to imply (or flat out say) that someone must be with another 24/day to form an attachment.

The truth is, our entire societal structure is very unnatural. It is not natural for a child to socialize only with one person (or family) all day. It is also not natural for children to play with other children all day. It is not natural for women or men to be alone in a house with their children for most of the day. But we have to live in the world we are born into, and we have to learn to adapt to day-to-day life in our society. We have to do what makes us happy, whether that means staying at home or working outside the home. First and foremost, we have to survive - financially, mentally, emotionally. That means different things to different people.
I really hope some of what has been written will be changed, and Mothering's official stance will turn out to be support of WOHMs, WAHMs and SAHMs (or SOHMs, anyone?) The implication that a mother cannot be attached to her children if she's away from them for 40hrs/week really bothers me.
post #111 of 209
Originally Posted by em&namama
no it's definition fit

abandon= to give up to the control or influence of another person or agent, to withdraw protection, support, or help from

Is that not what you are doing whether it is daycare or a babysitter?
By your definition, my dh abandons dd and I every day. Yet, she is just as attached to him as she is to me. So, I'd have to say I completely disagree.

As a SAHM my choices become more and more difficult because of the direction society has taken. I also hear numerous WOHM say that they wish or could only dream of being a SAHM. They no longer have that choice because society has make it very difficult to afford. So on my side, so to speak, I question our real ability to make a choice.
I do agree with this. But I also know SAHMs who wish they could WOHM, but can't afford to, due to costs of training to pursue their passion, for example.
post #112 of 209
yep, great points!
I also think that it isnt fair to kids to say that they need the mama to be always there catering to them 24-7 (obviously a newborn needs 24-7 close attention), having her kids be the be all and end all reason for her existence. I think it places a lot of stress on children when they are made the center of your (you in a general sense- this inst directed at anyone in particular) world. Of course your kids are a huge wonderful, integral part of your life, but its a heavy weight to place on them when they are your whole life. I think mamas and dads both teach their kids through examples by their nonchildren centered aspirations, work, goals, and dreams, etc....
and I am labeled a SAHM presently cause thats what works for our family, but I do not see that as my job for the rest of my life. there are lots of other parts to my identity!
anyway- its late, hope that made some sense!
post #113 of 209
In many "tribal" societies, 3 year olds are taking care of 1 year olds. It isn't all crafts and playgroups. Adults work, small babies are slung, and the rest of the kids tend to each other. Life is hard.
I've always wondered exactly what "tribal" societies she's talking about. The Yanomamo is South America? The Masai in Africa? I hate this essentialist, often racist talk of "tribal" societies. Physical punishment, circumcision, child rape, and domestic violence are all things prevalent in many tribal societies. I've never seen any talk of a specific tribe.
post #114 of 209
Wow--we may not have heard from the PTBs yet, but there have been some AMAZING posts from some beautifully articulate women. Thank you GM, Selu Gigage, Seasons, Dechen, and everyone else who expose the flaws in the idea that full-time SAHM is by definition what is best for a child or family.

Will an official voice chime in soon????

I'd rather know what the real stance of Mothering and MDC are on this issue before I give them any more of my $ directly (through subscriptions) or indirectly (by being a member, which makes MDC more attractive to advertisers).

If this club doesn't consider me a full member, I don't want to join.
post #115 of 209
I wasn't going to say anything more on this but it just simply amazes me how things can not only be taken out of context but total words and phrases put in it's place. Some people have a gift at wording things just right and some find it much more difficult to express exactly what they are trying to say. In order to reach understanding conversation must ensue. Conversation can't be had when people choose to get defensive instead.

It's a shame that the very people who want support and understanding don't want to help others understand they simply want to attack in defense.

I never attacked anyone for their choice to work or not work. I never said you could not AP and work at the same time. If you choose to use one of the other definitions for abandon then the one I used and clarified then don't make it sound like I used the same definition you are choosing to use. The definition I used has no negative connotation to it. I abandon my kids to go to the store and yes I do abandon them to go to work two nights a week for a few hours. At almost 5 & 6 I feel they are emotionally equipped to handle me being away for a time. In fact, I would be doing them a disservice at this age to not let them be separated from me. I never, ever condemned SAHD's and if anyone had bothered to ask instead of attack I would have clarified that in my difficulty in expressing exactly what I was trying to say I was using SAHM as a generality for SAHP.

I also stated that I wasn't talking about all working mothers. I stated specifically that I was talking about kids at a young age. I am sorry but I don't feel a baby who is 4-6 weeks old is emotionally prepared to be left with someone other than mom or dad for 10 hours a day. That baby just having come out of the security of the womb just 4-6 weeks before is just starting to feel secure in their world. To all of a sudden switch it up again just doesn't seem fair to me when they cannot possibly understand.

I also never stated dads cannot have a wonderful bond with their children and that they cannot AP with their child. I simply stated that kids do have a unique bond with their mothers but also a unique bond with their fathers. No child bonds to each parent for the exact same reasons. I am different than my husband plain and simple.

It's funny that it's not till Herthelde posted on post #100 something that finally someone acknowledged something I said. Women, whether they be SAHM, WOHM or WAHM, often don't have choices. There are women working who want to be home with their children, there are women working who wish they were working doing something they loved but can't, there are even women at home who wish they could be working doing something they love. There are probably some who are doing exactly what they want to be doing.

I consider myself a SAHM simply because my kids are either in my care or my husband's care even though I clearly have a job outside the home. It's funny I don't have issues that require support that stem from my working. I do have issues that I wish I had much more support on as a SAHM. I visited the SAHM forum on this site and all I see are WOHM's coming in there getting offended and posts getting locked. Just like working moms wish there was cheaper more affordable daycare I wish that women who choose to stay home with their kids received some kind of subsity assuming they were once working individuals and assuming they will go back to work once their kids are old enough to at least go to school. It seems for working moms it's all about them and helping them to go to work but nobody says why don't we help moms who want to stay home with their kids do that too. The government would love to give me free childcare to get a job (which costs money) but they don't want to give me anything to raise my kids. The message I get is we'll sure as heck support you to work but we don't support your choice to stay home and raise your kids. A small portion of that daycare cost would go a long way for us. But working mothers don't care about that. In fact their first response to financial stresses of SAHM's is well get a job. I have a job thank you and 30 or 40 years ago I would have had massive support. I also wouldn't be in the lower income tax bracket struggling to make ends meet.

Support goes beyond just saying you have your choices and I have mine. You guys are all great at saying I think it's wonderful that you stay home but do you really support SAHM's by fighting for things to make their lives easier and to enable it for those who want to do it?

Lastly my OP was merely presenting a view on why there might be silence on this issue from the powers that be. I never said it was their view and I never said I completely agreed with any view. I do believe that some options are better than others but most people do. You made your choice because clearly you feel it's the better choice or you would have made a different one unless you're one of the many women who probably don't really have a choice. I don't need to belittle anyone to make me feel better about my choice. I made my choice based on what I believe is the best. Of course if you feel like you are a constant victim of SAHMs' comments then it really doesn't matter what I say because you will still feel like a victim. If you're looking to feel attacked well you'll feel that too. That seems par for the course on this board. Thread after thread someone is offended. It doesn't matter which forum it's in.
post #116 of 209
Why don't you just apologize for using a harsh ugly word like "abandon?"

You hurt a lot of feelings, yet you keep defending yourself.

Abandon is an ugly word. Dictionary definition aside, the word has ugly, negative connotations, expecially in the context of children.

Child "abandonment" is a CRIME. Your protests that the word is not ugly seem very disingenuous.

You are brand new here. You have 12 posts.. and you come slamming into a thread where members of a community are hashing out painful issues (not great NETiquette), and you hurt a lot of people.

Apologize for it, and I might actually care what else you have to say.
post #117 of 209
I am quite surprised that Mothering has a policy against WOHMing and for SAHMing as a rule. I will ask about this as it does not seem to ring true. Peggy wrote in Natural Family Living that "Honoring the mother-child attachment does not necessarily mean giving up working when you have a child. Women in all societies have always worked." While Peggy does make suggestions about working and the needs and care of children, this seems to me to be inclusive of mothers who work.

As far as I know Mothering does not have an official stance in this regard. But here's the official line of Mothering's purpose:

Mothering celebrates the experience of parenthood as worthy of one's best efforts and fosters an awarenessof the immense importance and value of parenthood and family life in the development of the full human potential of parents and children. As a readers' magazine we recognize parents as experts and wish to provide truly helpful information on which parents can base informed choices. Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents, and we encourage decision making that considers the needs of all members of the family. We explore the reality of human relationships in the family setting, recognizing that raising heirs of our civilization well is the prerequisite of a healthy society.
There are wonderful parents that work out of their home, that work in their home, as well as wonderful parents that stay home with their children and do not work. And there are terrible parents who work outside the home, who work inside the home, and who are SAH parents. A stance for or against WAHMing, WOHMing, and SAHMing would be too huge a generalization and would, I think, just create more ammunition for the mommy wars that so many of us wish would stop. Mothering advocates the rights of the child and that would seem to be the official stance of importance whether you are a WOHM, WAHM, or SAHM. Not all parents fulfill the rights of their children in the Mothering sense. So to uphold one of the labels as the ideal is pretty superficial.

I don't think the issue is policy-ed so that a line can be drawn to say who is and isn't supported full stop. Certainly, in making decisions in the best interest of the child(ren), what is necessary and even possible will be different from family to family based on the myriad of circumstances presented to the parent/parents.
post #118 of 209
Well, cool. I hope that is the case.
However, if it is, I also hope Peggy will make sure EVERYONE at the Magazine is on board.
Because I absolutely DID get an e-mail making that statement from someone there.
post #119 of 209
You are completely correct I have 12 posts but I am hardly new to MotheringDotCommune. I have been reading posts for over 2 years on this site quite regularly. I only recently registered so that I could post and ask questions and participate.

You are asking me to apologize for using a word that in my OP was not used in the manner you are suggesting. You are asking me to apologize to people for accusing them of commiting a crime. Whether you believe it or not it was not meant in that spirit. If you refuse to believe me then it's your problem not mine and there's nothing I can say or do because you've already made up your mind even though you don't know me. Quite frankly I am not used to dealing with people as mean as you sound. I will apologize and say that if someone got offended or someone's feelings got hurt by my choice of the word it wasn't my intent. But I won't apologize for a crime I know I didn't commit and neither would you.

It seems like your lack of netetiquette as you say doesn't seem to matter. Even if someone feels like I was being too judgemental I hardly think I came across as mean. You come across as being extremely harsh and hard. I guess the difference is that you have been posting much longer and people do know you and they may know a side of you that I clearly haven't seen in this thread. How would you feel if you were to come back at me and say I wasn't trying to be mean I was just mad and I were to tell you it sounded disingenuous and that your intent was to be mean even after you denied it? Are you really mean or would you like for me to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're a very nice person who is mad, frustrated or hurt? That's all I was asking for is the benefit of the doubt but I certainly won't beg you for it just so that you will care about what I say.
post #120 of 209
I'm not saying you didn't asherah. Something similar occurred regarding Unassisted Childbirth and the editor made a mistake. I have worked for Mothering for several years now and I never take anything as policy from anyone without hearing it from Peggy herself.

What I'm trying to convey here is that considering Mothering has had articles in the past about working mothers, articles written by working mothers, and hosts a forum here at MDC for working mothers (and by working I mean those who must go out of their home and leave their children in the care of someone else) it should be obvious that working mothers are embraced by Mothering and are supported as parents just as much as anyone else.
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