Is either WOH *or* SAH part of NFL? - Page 8

[em&namama]

And again Trish thank you for helping me to see the other side which I still hadn't understood after so many years. I now understand it a little better and it will enable me to better support moms who do work out of the home. You expressed my true beliefs so well and brought them together in a way that they weren't conflicted in my head anymore. While I understood women's desire to work I never imagined that desire could be stronger than their desire to care for their kids. What you made me realize is that for many women it's equally as strong as the other and when you traced it back I was able to see that one is just as natural as the other. If there were more people like you around mommy wars would become fewer and far between

Thanks for not taking offense and being willing to read through my words, as poor as they may been, and seeing my true intent.

[KateMary]

This has been an interesting discussion and I am so relieved by Cynthia's response-even though I don't need anyone's approval to know I am doing the right things for my family.

I just wanted to add that if Mothering wanted to do a story on WOHMothering and the AP lifestyle, a good angle would be how daycares are becoming a lot more AP-friendly (at least in my experience-this may vary by region). My dd's daycare requires cloth diapers, they do no disposables at all, they require whole, healthy foods, and are very progressive with potty learning and discipline. Of the other places I checked out, none allowed a baby to CIO for naps, even if they didn't go AP in other areas.

Just an idea in case Peggy or anyone else is checking out this thread! Sorry a little off topic but it would be great to see some WOHM focus in a Mothering article!

[Seasons]

it would be great to see some WOHM focus in a Mothering article!

That's not off-topic at all!

daycares are becoming a lot more AP-friendly

What great news! I can't say what things "used" to be like, but I've been pretty pleased with the daycare choices available to my family now, in the 21st century. When your providers can "talk" Sears with you, it's a good sign!

(It's probably partly because of mass-market parenting magazines that care providers know of Dr. Sears; a certain mainstream mag runs his column. So if Mothering started running regular stories on HOW woh parents make AP/NFL work (not merely that we exist, but how, giving support and info), that could spread beyond parents directly, and improve daycares and workplaces and awareness further. Just sayin'. With my usual subtlety. :LOL )

[Mynn]

Just adding applause to the rocking families in this thread.

[kaydee]

Thanks for chiming in Cynthia. What you say is encouraging although, like Seasons, I would really like to hear an official MDC/Mothering "policy statement" on this issue that is thoroughly clear.

Originally Posted by Nate

Umm, no one is arguing that SAHMs also have a tough row to hoe. We all do. And I'm not even arguing that SAHMs are looked down upon by many (although I won't go so far as to say almost everyone), and that there are unique disadvantages to SAH.

But this thread isn't about recognizing the problems (or advantages) of SAHM. This thread is about asking Mothering magazine, and MDC, to recognize that

a) WOHMs are an active part of this community.
b) it IS possible to WOH and AP/NFL
c) WOHMs also need the support & encouragement of Mothering and MDC.
d) Mothering and MDC could reach and help many women--and help defuse the Mommy wars--by actively recognizing and reaching out to ALL mothers, and by using their status as the "voice" of NFL to educate their readers on these issues.

em&namama--If you have been reading MDC for 2 years, then you will have seen many, many posts from mothers (WOHM, WAHM, and SAHM) that express a desire for the government and businesses and culture to make our society more family friendly. This is for the benefit of all parents, whether they work outside of the home or not. I find your complaints that WOHMs aren't doing enough to support SAHMs baffling (and not really germane to this thread). Further, if there weren't so much out-and-out denigration of WOHMs on the SAHM board, perhaps you wouldn't see so many of us over there, and perhaps threads wouldn't get closed. Do you read the WOHM forum? I rarely, if ever, will see anyone talking trash about SAHMs as a group. We deserve the same courtesy from our sisters who choose a different path in this regard.

[PaganScribe]

Originally Posted by em&namama

Thank you also for recognizing that contrary to what many WOHM's believe SAHM's have it just as hard if not harder.

Why, oh why, oh WHY is it so hard to not do this? Why does who has it "harder" always have to come up?

You don't have it harder than I do. I don't have it harder than you do. One way is not harder or less hard or any such business. Our ways are just DIFFERENT.

MOTHERING is hard. PARENTING is hard. It's hard, any of the myriad ways that it can be done. Why does there have to be this fight about who has it harder?

[Nate]

[Lucky Charm]

Originally Posted by em&namama

contrary to what many WOHM's believe SAHM's have it just as hard if not harder.

How so? Is this your opinion, your experience? I think all moms can have it hard whether they are at home or go to work.

Now if you are talking about the emotional element of possibly being available to your kids 24/7 day in and day out, with little chance to recharge you batteries, i think that might apply to moms that work, to all moms. Parenting can be hard. staying home doesnt necessarily make it hard and neither does working. Then there are some people that would find anything difficult. I dont want to speculate on what you are really getting at, because i am not sure what it is. (it might be nothing, or something).

[mahdokht]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

This is so true. I am a sahm more by necessity than choice. We both would rather my partner be the sahp. I've been thoroughly roasted in the sahm forum. I thought it was going to be about the joys and challenges of that choice without judging anyone else's choices, but I was wrong.

I want to work. I thrived when I was in school this past year. Everyone has different strengths and passions. I don't understand the mommy wars.


I have more to say, but don't know if it violates the ua.

I was really dissappointed when I saw that forum. I spoke against it every time it was suggested. I just recently went looking for support for student mamas and discovered that there was a sahm forum. I think the majority of women here are sahm's and that is def. the mainstream culture of MDC, I don't see why we need a sahm forum.

Anyway..... sorry for the wohm that feel excluded, dissapointed and all those other bad feelings.

[RedWine]

In defense of he SAHM forum...

it is definitely needed. There are issues that are SAHM-specific, just as there are issues that are WOHM specific. If there's going to be a forum for WOHM, then there should be one for SAHMs. I visit the SAHM site all the time, and am very happy it exists!

However, I agree there should be no "roasts" -- on either side!!

[kaydee]

Originally Posted by RedWine

In defense of he SAHM forum...

it is definitely needed. There are issues that are SAHM-specific, just as there are issues that are WOHM specific. If there's going to be a forum for WOHM, then there should be one for SAHMs. I visit the SAHM site all the time, and am very happy it exists!

However, I agree there should be no "roasts" -- on either side!!

I am a WOHM, and I agree with you; I can see where there would be SAHP-specific concerns and issues, and how it would be beneficial to have a supportive forum. I just wish the focus stayed on SAHPs and their issues, and didn't keep turning to us WOHMs (yes, I said "WOHM," not "WOHP," because that's what I usually see) and our "shortcomings."

[em&namama]

Originally Posted by sweetbaby3

I dont want to speculate on what you are really getting at, because i am not sure what it is. (it might be nothing, or something).

Why oh why does everyone want to pick out every little word and see something negative in it? You're right it's absolutely nothing!! Hard, in and of itself, is all relative. Is this what this board's about? Reading, nitpicking and trying to find offense in anything someone says?

If I hadn't received quite a few personal messages from people who have quietly encouraged or supported me from this thread I think I would never visit here again. I am sure that would make some of you happy. I will instead choose to believe that there are many more people like them on this board.

[guerrillamama]

em&namama, I have posted things which people took the wrong way, or which they took the right way but which I should never have said. I have posted things with nothing but good intentions, which I later realized were ignorant or even offensive. on topics I admittedly knew nothing about, such as WAHMing, homeschooling, and Judaism. When people let me know that I was out of line, sometimes it was not in the gentlest way possible but you know what? I'm a big girl. I can take it. In each instance, I apologized for my ignorance, acknowledged that I had a lot to learn, and listened to the rest of the conversation with humility. At least that's what I've tried to do, I don't know if I've hit it 100%.

I really recommend this strategy, I think you'll get a lot more out of the boards this way.

You used loaded words in a discussion on a very loaded topic. It should have been obvious that people feel passionate about this, and it should have been no surprise that people responded passionately. No one attacked you personally, just disagreed with you vehemently. You can take it with humility or defensiveness, your choice.

[kira]

Wow! Lots of intersting posts. I'll probably repeat alot, but just some thoughts.

(1) I've stopped buying Mothering Magazine (a magazine I in fact love), because it almost seems to me like Marie Aintoinettes saying "Let them eat Cake!" (Remember the article about the mother who spent all her time sewing costumes for her little girl - not criticizing the mother, that was very creative, but what percentage of the population could consider spending that much time sewing their child's toys? Totally out of touch of the reality of most mothers' lives. And, for balance, I don't see any articles about poor, homeless women trying to AP their baby/child - but I know this exists, and that it's very, very important. Who will be their voice?). So, the magazine was making me feel like one of the poor peasants listening to Marie Antoinette speaking so flippantly from her gorgeous, artificial, pristine copy of a peasant village.

(2)Is there any other magazine that supports stay-at-home moms? Everything I've seen seems to support working mothers, and I've read that writers are admonished by editors to skew things towards the working mothers' side. So, it seems that we really need, in the interest of balance, at least, something that supports stay-at home mothers and TEACHES that it is an option, and a good one for children and mother.
It seems like everything in society is pressuring mothers to be a working mother - the loss of power a non-earning mother has, the loss of status, the magazines and books, ect..... Only, in this comparatively small world of AP are the roles reversed.

(3) Haven't I often read that not only do baby monkeys deprived of a mommy figure end up violent, but also baby monkeys deprived of other age companions to play with? How is a working-at-home mother supposed to find time to make sure her children have adequate time with other children -in the way our society is set up.

(4) I think the problem is the way our society is set up, as people here have noted. Women are not supposed to choose between staying at home and not working vs. working away from home. Everything is supposed to be all mixed up - and children witnessing the work done in society by mothers and fathers while being cared for by both. True feminism would adress this - not women comparing themselves to men to decide what feminisn should be, but asking, as bloody and birthing women with passions, energy, ect... what is it we want and how will we as a group go around getting it? How will we make children a part of the adult world, rather than excluded (so that stay-at-home mothers must then be excluded )

(5) I have more to say, but my child needs me. Since the reality is many mothers need to work or face homelessness, and others feel a strong desire to, maybe it would help if Mothering Magazine published a monthly feature on businesses that support AP parenting, how, ect...along with a list of such businesses in the US. RThen we could support those businesses with our money, and encourage new ones. And a monthly feature on how women manage to combine earning money with AP parenting.

(6) But, please, remember, Mothering Mag needs to push back hard on all the influences pushing non-staying-at home mothering - because no'one else is. But I agree that we need to be inclusive.

[snuggly mama]

Having read through all eight pages of this thread, I felt I really wanted to say what was on my mind. I am a SAHM, partially by choice and partially by necessity since my youngest dd has many complex special needs. It saddens me that mothers, who all perform some of the hardest work there is, cannot seem to get past the titles we apply to each other. I don't identify my friends by their status as SAH or WOH -- they are simply my friends who happen to be mothers. The WOHM often struggle with exactly the same issues I am facing each day, and they handle it with grace and grit as would I. Their children are bright, engaging, happy and attached. Sometimes they cry when mom goes off to work -- but sometimes my children cry when I go off to run errands or have time for myself. I deeply resent the idea that there is a "right" way to parent all children, that there is a "right" way to create an AP family. The fact that we are here, discussing the topic so passionately, means we each care very deeply about our children and want to do the very best we can, whatever that means for each of our familes.

I was happy to see that Cynthia posted a response that was inclusionary of WOHM, but like others here, I think this needs to be more fully embraced. In a magazine that is forward-thinking in many ways (vax, circ, etc.), embracing the many faces of AP can only be beneficial. It is the idealized version of motherhood, perpetuated by the media and others, that so isolates us from each other.

[Cullens_Girl]

it's been interesting watching this thread evolve. you mommas speak eloquently.

[kaydee]

On another, but oh-so-related note: The next time any of us lobs a grenade in the Mommy Wars, let's pause and ask a few questions:

Why aren't there "Daddy Wars"?

Why don't we hear fathers constantly defending their choices about WOH and having children?

Why aren't fathers getting asked if they "have" to work or if they "choose" to?

Why are the contributions of fathers (even monkey fathers! :LOL) so often downplayed or even denigrated?

Who does this double standard really serve? (Hint: the answer isn't "us mothers".)

[asherah]

Originally Posted by Shonahsmom

Asherah? Mean? :LOL

Asherah is one of the kindest, wisest and most loving mommas on MDC.

em&namama, whatever you know to be your honest intention of the word "abandon" you missed the mark hugely. I was very offended by your post.

To all the other mommas here that have contributed to this thread with such eloquence and truth, you are all why I continue to stay. Thank you!

Thanks so much for the support, sweetie. You made my day.
But I am not at all upset about the remarks directed at me here, nor do I plan to respond to them.

I am glad that Guerillamama and others are willing to try to do the gentle educating I just don't have the patience for right now. I admit to being very worn down by the mommy wars/wohm bashing rhetoric that goes on here. But I am also so heartened by some of the reaching out that has taken place via this thread.

There are truly some wonderful people here.

Cynthia- I am very glad for your input on this issue, and if there are further words on it from you or Peggy, I am looking forward to hearing them.

[Arwyn]

kaydee, you're showing your true colors: you're obviously not a mothering-essentialist!

I agree with you, although I think it should be expanded to all coparents, and indeed all society. Care work isn't valued enough/at all. Which is why there are mommy wars; because traditionally, women do most/all of the caring, and young humans require the most care. If - no, when! - care is valued more, more men/coparents/villages will start caring. (Although I think the converse is true also: when more men start performing care work, care will be valued more. The sexism implied by that sucks, but I think it's true.)

Was that too off topic?

I've been really happy to see how much effort is being made to steer this conversation back on track and toward civility (not always easy, but the group has risen to the challenge). Y'all rock.

(btw, am I the only non-senior member who sometimes feels weird posting responses in Q&S?) ETA Not that that apparently stops me... :LOL

[RedWine]

Originally Posted by kira

Wow! Lots of intersting posts. I'll probably repeat alot, but just some thoughts.

(1) I've stopped buying Mothering Magazine (a magazine I in fact love), because it almost seems to me like Marie Aintoinettes saying "Let them eat Cake!" (Remember the article about the mother who spent all her time sewing costumes for her little girl - not criticizing the mother, that was very creative, but what percentage of the population could consider spending that much time sewing their child's toys? Totally out of touch of the reality of most mothers' lives. And, for balance, I don't see any articles about poor, homeless women trying to AP their baby/child - but I know this exists, and that it's very, very important. Who will be their voice?). So, the magazine was making me feel like one of the poor peasants listening to Marie Antoinette speaking so flippantly from her gorgeous, artificial, pristine copy of a peasant village.

(2)Is there any other magazine that supports stay-at-home moms? Everything I've seen seems to support working mothers, and I've read that writers are admonished by editors to skew things towards the working mothers' side. So, it seems that we really need, in the interest of balance, at least, something that supports stay-at home mothers and TEACHES that it is an option, and a good one for children and mother.
It seems like everything in society is pressuring mothers to be a working mother - the loss of power a non-earning mother has, the loss of status, the magazines and books, ect..... Only, in this comparatively small world of AP are the roles reversed.

(3) Haven't I often read that not only do baby monkeys deprived of a mommy figure end up violent, but also baby monkeys deprived of other age companions to play with? How is a working-at-home mother supposed to find time to make sure her children have adequate time with other children -in the way our society is set up.

(4) I think the problem is the way our society is set up, as people here have noted. Women are not supposed to choose between staying at home and not working vs. working away from home. Everything is supposed to be all mixed up - and children witnessing the work done in society by mothers and fathers while being cared for by both. True feminism would adress this - not women comparing themselves to men to decide what feminisn should be, but asking, as bloody and birthing women with passions, energy, ect... what is it we want and how will we as a group go around getting it? How will we make children a part of the adult world, rather than excluded (so that stay-at-home mothers must then be excluded )

(5) I have more to say, but my child needs me. Since the reality is many mothers need to work or face homelessness, and others feel a strong desire to, maybe it would help if Mothering Magazine published a monthly feature on businesses that support AP parenting, how, ect...along with a list of such businesses in the US. RThen we could support those businesses with our money, and encourage new ones. And a monthly feature on how women manage to combine earning money with AP parenting.

(6) But, please, remember, Mothering Mag needs to push back hard on all the influences pushing non-staying-at home mothering - because no'one else is. But I agree that we need to be inclusive.

: