Is either WOH *or* SAH part of NFL? - Page 2

[Black Orchid]

I appreciate your explanation! I think I understand now.

A couple of months ago (I can't remember which issue) Peggy's editorial was about how she would define NFL... I cannot remember if it specifically addressed WOH, child care and learning outside the home, though.

JMO, but I think we are meant to live as more than a single family unit. Modern life and all that it entails has caused a large separation and today's definition or "Community" is certainly much different than it was thousands of years ago. From my perspective, it is less natural for child care to revolve solely around the mother than it is to have a network of support from the father, extended family and a trusted childcare provider. And I know there are others who see it the opposite way. Perhaps this is an area where MDC/Peggy feel that there is no one truly "NFL/AP" path and hence the existance of support forums for both situations.

It seems that there are some issues, like Circ, CIO and commercial cleaning products for example that there is a clearly defined NFL/AP method. However when it comes to something like learning, which really depends on the individual, MDC recognizes there are different solutions that work and qualify as NFL/AP?

I know you are waiting for an offical answer... I'm just blabbering to help keep your thread warm

[Seasons]

I like your kind of blabber.

Perhaps this is an area where MDC/Peggy feel that there is no one truly "NFL/AP" path and hence the existance of support forums for both situations.

And that could be; it comes much closer to what I personally feel. (I'm a feminist first and APer second, so I believe in choices for women, and strengthening communities and family/women's own economies and abilities, to empower us to have as many viable choices as possible.)

But if so, a Mothering/MDC official statement -- of embracing WOH/SAH equally -- would go a long, long way. How about:

Natural Family Living, as Mothering magazines defines it, embraces the many opportunities and abilities of family members, both inside and outside the home. NFL equally supports parents who work as parent full-time, who combine parenting and other work, and who combine parenting and school. NFL equally supports the learning and social experiences of children at home, with friends and relatives, in commercial daycares and in all manner of schools. NFL encourages equally those parents whose workplace is home, and those whose workplace is outside the home. NFL includes advocacy into a larger community and gentle support of all parents' informed choices.

Anyone else want to propose a "Mothering/MDC position statement regarding WOH/daycare/school," while we're waiting for a response from Cynthia Mosher and/or Peggy O'Mara?

[Seasons]

A couple of months ago (I can't remember which issue) Peggy's editorial was about how she would define NFL... I cannot remember if it specifically addressed WOH, child care and learning outside the home, though.

Here it is, Black Orchid, for issue 130 (I think the current issue) :
http://www.mothering.com/guest_edito...place/130.html

I hate to parse out her lengthy editorial to try to answer my own question, but in the absence of any official answer, I'll take a stab.

These parts of her editorial seem to support the idea that WOH and SAH fit equally within NFL:

First, at its best, natural family living defies general definition because it is about discovering what is natural for each individual. Second, I don’t want parents to think they must follow rules in order to be good at parenting.. . .Natural family living is about optimum survival, but it is not about making rules for proper behavior. That is the last thing we need.. . . What is most natural, it seems to me, is the need to choose for ourselves. I have no disagreement with someone who has examined things carefully and made a decision different from my own. I just want to make sure she has all the information.

These parts seem vaguely anti-WOH (at least for moms):

Children are not routinely separated from adults, and adults work with children in their arms or at their side. I was inspired by tribal societies. . . Attachment parenting is very much a part of natural family living. It appreciates that the first three to five years of life are a critical period for developing trust, empathy, dependency, and optimism...Here are some of the basic ideas of natural family living, as I understand it:. . .• Mothers and babies need to be together, especially during the first three to five years of life.

Peggy ends her editorial by asking for input:

Please let me know what natural family living means to you. Do you find these ideas helpful in your family life? Do they seem impossible to attain? What would you add to the list? Let me hear from you. Let’s foster a broad sense of natural family even as we appreciate its long history and deep roots.

The Mothering contact page (http://www.mothering.com/sections/ab...ontact_us.html) gives contact addresses:

Mailing Address
Mothering Magazine
P.O. Box 1690
Santa Fe, NM 87504

Editorial
Email: [e-mail]

Letters to the Editor
Email: [e-mail]

So maybe if we don't hear from her or Cynthia here soon, we should email? Seems a shame to have such an important discussion limited to private messages, though, rather than in a public thread in a forum intended and named exactly for Questions and Suggestions.

[mamajama]

I hope it can stay public. If not, would you be so kind as to publicly post the response here?

[asherah]

Ugh.
I have been avoiding this thread, but I feel compelled to speak up.

A year and a half ago I e-mailed an editor at Mothering about the issue of wohm. I was working and dh was a sahd.. was wondering why wohm issues were rarely if ever addressed.

I was told the policy of Mothering was to support sahM.. and I emphasize the M... until a child is 3. I was told that given this policy, Mothering was not willing to be inclusive of Wohms.. because that would be like saying you advocate breastfeeding and then being inclusive of formula feeding. That is a direct quote.

I was told there were other magazines that serve wohm, so Mothering felt it was important to serve and support Sahm exclusively. (yeah, like I can stomach Working Mother. Ugh)

This is why I did not renew my subscription to Mothering. I did not write back to ask about at least including wohm of children over 3.. and addressing returning to the workforce while upholding ap/gd/nfl principles... because it seemed futile. I had my answer.

So why do I stay here? The presence of the wohm forum seems to suggest there is a desire to include wohm here... though I do not post there anymore, after discovering that some people lurk there merely to make themselves feel superior. I am not about to pour my heart out anymore about my work/life balance issues so that others can use my struggles as ammunition in the mommy wars.

I can't say I am thrilled about this thread. I feel that forcing the issue may well result in the loss of the wohm forum, and a formal statement that wohm are in fact NOT included in the mission of MDC. In which case I would have to leave.

Not that this place isn't full of some really cruel, awful, nasty anti-wohm sentiment and mommy war snipping. It is. But at least it has become pretty much confined to the sahm forum so it isn't always in my face.

[mamajama]

wow, Ashera, that sounds so sad. I didn't realize there was such anymosity between mothers all trying to do their best for their families ("families", last time I checked, include the mothers as well.). Maybe it is futile. There is so much I have gained over the years checking this place out that it would be unfortunate for sure to have to sign out on principle.
I do believe an official statement is in order. I'd hate to be posting and knowing that the people running the joint are sighing and shaking their heads behind my back simply "tollerating" my presence.
If the wohm forum was abolished to coincide with an official statement saying that MDC does not support or encourage working mothers, I would rather know this than wonder and make a jacka$$ out of myself.
Then again, aren't most of the moderators and women working for the website and magazine wohms?

[Seasons]

Thank you so much for posting, asherah .

We have our answer. I'm not surprised, just very sad. And, given the restrictions of the User Agreement here, I'll leave it at that.

[nonconformnmom]

: and/or

[Harper]

Wow.

I would hate to lose this place--really it is my connection to my mama side when I am at work!!!!

Honestly, the outcome of this thread might affect my place at MDC but it WILL NOT effect whether I am an attached parent or practice NFL. I AM AN ATTACHED PARENT AND I DON'T NEED SOMEONE ELSE TO VALIDATE THAT.



Edited to change an effect to affect but I'm still not sure if I got them right. Great way to screw up a strong statement. Affect/effect is my downfall)

[guerrillamama]

Originally Posted by Seasons

Thank you so much for posting, asherah .

We have our answer. I'm not surprised, just very sad. And, given the restrictions of the User Agreement here, I'll leave it at that.

: Bad news.

[guerrillamama]

Originally Posted by Harper

Honestly, the outcome of this thread might effect my place at MDC but it WILL NOT effect whether I am an attached parent or practice NFL. I AM AN ATTACHED PARENT AND I DON'T NEED SOMEONE ELSE TO VALIDATE THAT.

We x-posted, but this bears repeating. Speaks for me too.

[tricia80]

wow this saddens me as a mother who comes here to have some communication with mothers who believe in what most others around me think are looney....

[tricia80]

it also saddens me that mothers are pitted against each other...

we should be helping each other...

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by asherah

Not that this place isn't full of some really cruel, awful, nasty anti-wohm sentiment and mommy war snipping. It is. But at least it has become pretty much confined to the sahm forum so it isn't always in my face.

This is so true. I am a sahm more by necessity than choice. We both would rather my partner be the sahp. I've been thoroughly roasted in the sahm forum. I thought it was going to be about the joys and challenges of that choice without judging anyone else's choices, but I was wrong.

I want to work. I thrived when I was in school this past year. Everyone has different strengths and passions. I don't understand the mommy wars.


I have more to say, but don't know if it violates the ua.

[2babybees]

As a newcomer to this board but long time subscriber of Mothering I am also saddened by these words. I have been reading this thread hoping to hear more positive words from those "in charge" but I believe their silence on this issue and the words from Asherah probably are the answer. What a sad notion in community of AP/NFL.

[fyrflymommy]

I would think that MDC supports working outside the home if it is absolutely necessary, and daycare if you have no other choice. Public schooling...would probably depend on the school?

Donning my flame-proof suit here....I agree with Peggy that it's important for a child to be w/ their mother for the first few years of life. The stay at home dad issue I would think has to do with the fact that babies and toddlers were meant to be breastfed and men cannot do that.

fyrfly

[nonconformnmom]

Fyrfly wrote: The stay at home dad issue I would think has to do with the fact that babies and toddlers were meant to be breastfed and men cannot do that.

There are many, many flavors of NFL and at-home caregiving. Yes, fathers cannot breastfeed but they can bring the baby to the mother's workplace so that she can breastfeed during the day, as we do in my case. I also pump twice a day at work and my husband gives her expressed breastmilk in a bottle the few times that she gets hungry while I'm away.

And? Reverse cycling. Many breastfed babies of working mothers simply switch their primary feeding hours to be during the night when mama's milk is within easy reach.

[Europeanmom]

Some poster mentioned that there were other forums aimed at woh-ap-m's. Are there really?

I've come to love MDC and don't think I'll leave, but are there any forums for working moms who want to practice AP and NLF?

Thanks, Season, for asking this important question, and thank-you to you and others for digging up the answers Good job.

[AmandaBL]

I'm also a WOHM but I have a different perspective. (I'm going off of my own deffinition of AP & NFL here, obviously. I think a clear def from mothering may be helpfull, but impossible.) I'm not ashamed of working, but I don't celebrate it either. I work 3 days a week. My girlfriend keeps my son 2 days & my mom keeps him 1. He usually gets to come to me to eat a coupple times a week, but the other times he's bottle fed EBM. I agree with mothering on this one. It's awesome that dads stay home & I think as far as non-mom childcare goes that's super! I sure do considder myself AP but these are areas where I think I'm not meeting the ideal. I think it's great that we all make a real effort to be great parents weather we can do everything exactly right or not. At the same time, I'm willing to admit to myself that it would be BETTER if my baby nursed at the breast each & every time he's hungry. It would be BETTER if I was home with him all the time. I don't expect Mothering (the ONLY magazine that stands up for AP & NFL that I've found) to tel me that these things (that may be very necessarry, but are not the "goal") are celebrated.

[guerrillamama]

Further info on Peggy O's stance on WOHMs. The following quote is from her recent chat, in response to a WOHM who was missing her new baby.

I don't know what to say without making you feel worse. I think it is important to be with your babies in the early years. If we simply cannot do this, then we have to deal and cope with the feelings. If there are options, then we must look into them. If you have working because you have to that is one thing. If you are working because you think you should or because of pressure from your spouse or others that is another thing. Only you can sort that out and the ache you feel missing your baby, the gut pull from the invisible umbilical cord is real and for a reason. But, only you can figure out what your real choices are. You could also read some old books, Mothers at Home and Sequencing by Cardoz (I'm forgetting the spelling.) Imagine other options.

I found this quote pretty UNsupportive but wasn't sure whether or not to interpret it as anti-WOHM. Now that I have a bigger picture, I do.