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Is either WOH *or* SAH part of NFL? - Page 3

post #41 of 209
Well, like I said previously - that really, really hurts.

I was really hoping for something less judgemental, maybe a shred of supportiveness...
post #42 of 209
I think that it is important that babies form an attachment to a primary caregiver early in life.

I do NOT think that caregiver has to be the mother.
I do NOT think babies can only be attached to one person.
I do NOT think that the attachment must be formed between the hours of 9am and 5pm M-F.

I DO expect Mothering to support WOHMs in our efforts to be AP and NFL.
I DO expect Mothering to support ALL mothers in those efforts, and not to privilege SAHMs over WOHMs or vice versa.
I DO expect Mothering to rise above the petty divide-and-conquer mommy wars and see a bigger picture for the good of all children.

I have been very disappointed in those expectations.
post #43 of 209
Wow, this is all very surprising to me. I feel so naive... I didn't know that Mothering isn't necessarily on the side of the working mama. When that article came out a few months ago about bringing baby to work, I did feel a little slighted, since I don't have that option at all (and don't even really have that option in my area even if I switched jobs)... I think my mother guilt about leaving my baby to go to work took over on that one though, and I just mostly accept all the criticism for it, because I feel like I deserve it.

How sad.

But regarding the chat with Paggy the other day, I was actually there and asked a question on this topic, even though I was completely unaware of this thread until today. I went to mommychats.com to try to look at the transcript, but it's not up yet. I'll post my question and answer from her in the working mamas forum when it becomes available.

Generally though, she seemed genuinely sympathetic to my plight, and then she said she didn't want to offend me but... [interject all the stuff about maybe changing jobs so I can work at home or take him to work, read Nursing Mothers, Working Mothers, etc.] She seemed very respectful about it all, but again... I feel like I deserve to be criticized for working, so my judgement is a little skewed.
post #44 of 209
Great post gm.
post #45 of 209
Laura you do not deserve criticism, you deserve support. WOHMs bust our asses to provide for our kids, then do a double at home, and all we get is criticism on all sides. I am so sick of it.
post #46 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by guerrillamama
Laura you do not deserve criticism, you deserve support. WOHMs bust our asses to provide for our kids, then do a double at home, and all we get is criticism on all sides. I am so sick of it.
You and me both sister. Add into that the way its been acceptable to criticize and condemn single parents here at MDC and I'm well.... gonna stop here.
post #47 of 209
Wow-
This is such an interesting thread. Thank you for posting it, it really opened my eyes. As a feminist I am always saddened when there is this great divide between SAHM and WOHM. Why is supporting SAHMs mutually exclusive of supporting WOHMs? When we take sides and fight amongst ourselves it weakens society’s understanding of mothering as important work and focuses on a rather limited set of choices for women to pursue in their lives. Isn’t that against feminist principles? What saddens me the most is that I feel that AP and NFL support is especially important when mothers WOH. Many times WOHMs are isolated from other types of mothering support because of their commitments outside the home. Are AP or NFL really all or nothing concepts? Does the title of Mother have an asterisk next to it if you WOH? I was a proud SAHM when my DD was an infant and I am a proud WOHM now. I honestly don’t think that my choice to do either made me a better or worse parent, but I do think that I made the choice to do both out of my commitment to NFL. Whoever it is at Mothering who seems to think that there are all these resources out there for WOHMs is completely wrong- there is very little out there for mothers who seek to maintain an AP or NFL focus while WOH.
post #48 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by guerrillamama
I think that it is important that babies form an attachment to a primary caregiver early in life.

I do NOT think that caregiver has to be the mother.
I do NOT think babies can only be attached to one person.
I do NOT think that the attachment must be formed between the hours of 9am and 5pm M-F.



Another SAHD family here (I am full-time WAHM in my own translation business) lending support to these ideas. See you in the next feminist mamas thread...
post #49 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragana



Another SAHD family here (I am full-time WAHM in my own translation business) lending support to these ideas. See you in the next feminist mamas thread...

SAHD family here, too! Read my first post and you'll see. Remember that no one can define what is right for your family or NFL or AP. No one. This is one person's definition of something that is very subjective.

Are there places that support WOHMs who are AP without judgement? Not that I have time for another board, but it would be nice to know... Maybe a Yahoo group (I love getting the messages in email format and being able to read them offline)?
post #50 of 209
It really saddens me to see WOHMothering (because nobody seems to care about the damage done with excessive WOHFathering/Coparenting) treated with the same attitude as formula-feeding; if you absolutely have to, we'll pity you and sympathize with you, but do you really have to? and if you voluntarily do it, well, you're just bad.

Honestly, I get it (and I feel that way myself) with regards to formula feeding; the evidence that shows formula is inferior is indisputable. I just don't think that's true with WOHM (and again, we're never talking about WOHParenting, nevermind how much is sucks for coparents to go off for 40-80 hours a week, missing so much of their kiddo's life, because it doesn't matter, there's a mother around, who needs anyone else? and nevermind that in much-lauded tribal societies everyone worked a lot closer to, or out of, home, and thus never really left one's children for such long periods of time, and we weren't ever designed to raise children in isolation - let's just ignore all that for the moment).

That said, WOHM can be, and often is, done for the wrong reasons (wrong either because there's a better choice, or because the better choice has been denied by society): because one has to because society doesn't value parenting; because one feels pressure to from family and friends; because one wants to keep up with the Joneses; because one didn't really want children in the first place (that one happens far too often, in my experience). But it can also be done for good, valuable reasons that are entirely compatable with Attachment Parenting and Natural Family Living: because one wants to; because the non-lactating coparent is better with the kids; because one feels it's important to continue life and work to provide a good example for one's children. There are, of course, grey areas, too, such as being in a profession that doesn't really allow for one to take several years' hiatus, and one is trying to do the best one can given what one has to work with.

The research that I've seen and trusted paints an interesting picture; attachment matters, and attachment parenting works. And WOHM doesn't damage kids; resentment does. Resenting having to work damages kids; resenting having to stay home damages kids; being relatively content with and secure in one's choice, either way, helps kids. Either SAH or WOH can be done well, in a way that fosters attachment and growth, or it can be done poorly, in a way that impedes growth and fosters sickness; why not help WOH be done well?

There are some dividing issues in AP and NFL, such as formula feeding for convenience, crib sleeping and crying it out for convenience, yelling and spanking unabashedly - I just don't see how working outside the home out of consious and conscientious choice or out of necessity qualifies as such a divider.
post #51 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by guerrillamama
I think that it is important that babies form an attachment to a primary caregiver early in life.

I do NOT think that caregiver has to be the mother.
I do NOT think babies can only be attached to one person.
I do NOT think that the attachment must be formed between the hours of 9am and 5pm M-F.
.

My dh is the primary caregiver, so hip hip hooray to the above. We know it works, don't we ladies?
post #52 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by guerrillamama
I DO expect Mothering to support WOHMs in our efforts to be AP and NFL.
I DO expect Mothering to support ALL mothers in those efforts, and not to privilege SAHMs over WOHMs or vice versa.
I DO expect Mothering to rise above the petty divide-and-conquer mommy wars and see a bigger picture for the good of all children.

I have been very disappointed in those expectations.
:

I've found that certain NFL things are a necessity if one WOH. There are the financially beneficial things like cloth dipes and breastfeeding, and the things that keep us together despite hectic schedules like ebf and co-sleeping.
I don't really look to MDC for support as a WOHM. I have a wonderful support system irl, which includes the my children's caretakers when dh and I are at work.
I think I have to stay out of this now. I've edited my post too much already..
post #53 of 209
Thread Starter 
If I quoted all the profound, innovative, supportive, AWESOME ideas that have been posted, I'd go on for pages. Just...

Let's NOT lose each other in this fray, gang. Whatever we feel about Mothing/MDC or its policies, the important connection is us, LOTS of other intelligent, loving, attached parents in different circumstances, who want to continue supporting each other, promoting a variety of viable choices for all families, and making "work" work for our families.
post #54 of 209
SAHD family here too!

That's disturbing, but I suppose not altogether surprising. The whole notion of "not to offend, but here are all the things you should do to change your life, and by the way, the reason you feel bad is because you're hurting your child"....! I don't think I can comment on that in a manner consistent with the User Agreement, so I won't.

That perspective ignores (among other points): (i) that many mothers enjoy their work and find that it enriches their lives and by extension the lives of their families, (ii) that, although mothers' work as mothers is always valuable, many mothers have other skills that are socially useful and want to use them to make other folks' lives better too, (iii) that we set women up for failure when we tell them that it is all on their shoulders to make the "right" choices for their family, as if they operated without any societal constraints, (iv) that financial independence gives women and children important choices [how many women in abusive relationships who post in Parents as Partners are constrained in their ability to deal with that situation by their financial dependence on their abuser]. I could go on.

I don't think I would walk away from this forum, because one of the things I enjoy is the diversity found among parents helping parents here, and the ability to learn about and from people whose lives may be either similar to mine or very different. I don't feel my choices to be undermined, because I'm pretty secure in my choices, and I take what is useful to me. This is disappointing, however.
post #55 of 209
Wow, by the time I posted that, there were umpteen more posts I hadn't read yet!

Arwyn, that is an awesome point about resentment. Thanks for that.
post #56 of 209
My apologies for being off-topic: wow, there are alot of families in here with the father as the at-home caregiver! Could we possibly start a thread somewhere to get to know each other better? I don't "know" anyone, in real life or in my online communities, that have a SAHD situation and I would really like to explore strategies and experiences with some of you. I'm new here; which forum would be appropriate to start a thread in? Parenting Issues?
post #57 of 209
I think it would get moved from Parenting Issues. I'd suggest either the WOHM forum (wait, where's my :?) or Finding Your Tribe, although I find it's easier to lose your tribe than to find it on that one, since things get buried.
post #58 of 209
I think it would probably be fine in Parenting Issues, as long as it stuck to OT posts about parentning issues unique to a SAHD/WOHM situation. Or parents as partners if it was regarding the relationship.

It IS neat to see so many of us in the same situation and I would LOVE to learn more about you guys, how it is working and discuss the unique issues we all face!
post #59 of 209
I'd love a SAHD discussion - can someone PM me or cross-post here if it starts? There have been short ones in the past, but maybe more people in our position now.
post #60 of 209
There is a thread in WOHM started by Black Orchid that might serve as a good start ...
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