Is either WOH *or* SAH part of NFL? - Page 5

[Hannah's Mom]

Originally Posted by em&namama

no it's definition fit

abandon= to give up to the control or influence of another person or agent, to withdraw protection, support, or help from

Is that not what you are doing whether it is daycare or a babysitter? I was also not saying it's wrong just imo it's wrong for such a long duration at such young ages. I also didn't infer you were handing them over to a child molester. I was simply saying if you were at a park with a bunch of other women and your child got hurt on the other side of the playground who would be the "best" to go comfort your child. Even if it's someone the child knows and trusts it's always going to be mom. On the flipside as a mom I couldn't help but rush over there to comfort my child.

Not that I owe you any sort of answer or explanation, but, as I said in an earlier post (BTW, did you even *read* the other posts on this thread), I leave my children with their father. However, even if I did leave them with a babysitter or a daycare center, I would not be abandoning them, even under your edited definition of "abandon." I neither give up control over them (by choosing their provider, I am exercising control), or withdraw support or help from them (I am always available to support or help my children).

I think that you *knew* that the word "abandon" is loaded and chose to use it for that purpose. And I don't know what dictionary you are using, but here are *complete* definitions from a few:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=abandon
1.To withdraw one's support or help from, especially in spite of duty, allegiance, or responsibility; desert: abandon a friend in trouble.
2.To give up by leaving or ceasing to operate or inhabit, especially as a result of danger or other impending threat: abandoned the ship.
3.To surrender one's claim to, right to, or interest in; give up entirely. See Synonyms at relinquish.
4.To cease trying to continue; desist from: abandoned the search for the missing hiker.
5.To yield (oneself) completely, as to emotion.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...andon&x=4&y=15
1 a : to give up to the control or influence of another person or agent b : to give up with the intent of never again claiming a right or interest in
2 : to withdraw from often in the face of danger or encroachment <abandon ship>
3 : to withdraw protection, support, or help from
4 : to give (oneself) over unrestrainedly
5 a : to cease from maintaining, practicing, or using <abandoned their native language> b : to cease intending or attempting to perform <abandoned the escape>

[nonconformnmom]

Yes it is difficult when you are 1 and all you want is your mama. It is also difficult when you are 30 and find yourself in a situation where you wish you had your mom there to offer her support and unconditional love and hugs.

Precisely! All the more reason to nurture strong and lasting attachments with BOTH parents so that the child learns to bond with a rich support network that will see them through the rest of their lives.

1. Child attached to Mom such that 'there is no substitute'

2. Child attached to Mom
AND attached to Dad or cherished caregiver.

Which child is more attached? Which one would YOU rather be, considering the fact that any one of us, mothers and fathers, could be taken from our children at a moment's notice? (Not to be morbid or anything, lol!)

[Oh the Irony]

an odd post

this is a bit odd to bring up, but i did want to mention the glorification of wahms that i see all the time.

i am now a freelance wahm in the publishing industry. so, i have responsibilities of the sahm and i work 20-30 hours a week.

it is not always elegant when i have a deadline. my children would perhaps be better off in a childcare situation when i am working.

i just wanted to add that to the mix, because i think people have an overly romantic view of wahms.

[Oh the Irony]

Originally Posted by nonconformnmom

Precisely! All the more reason to nurture strong and lasting attachments with BOTH parents so that the child learns to bond with a rich support network that will see them through the rest of their lives.

don't go forgettin' all of the single mamas now.

[member]

I think the PP who mentioned the formula to WOHM analogy is spot on.

I think the Mommy Wars and any perpetuation of the Mommy Wars is beyond classist. Many, many women have always worked outside of the home. In this country. Before WWII. Slavery, servants, factory workers... Even if there is concrete evidence tomorrow that somehow proves that SAHM are the best moms and all other moms are selfish, evil wenches, there are still going to be women who *have* to work for pay. That's capitalism based on the GDP, and if that peeves you off, get in the streets.

I won't even go into the whole idea that a woman should NOT want to WOH. Who care's if she loves her job, she's talented, whatever.

Always it comes down to the woman. Where's the father or coparent? Is he/she abandoning his/her children as well? In the "abandonment" argument shouldn't both parents be at home to raise the child in order to be real, full parents? But, hey, there's that gotta work for food and rent thing I mentioned above, so even in 2-parent homes it seems like someone is only contributing a facade of parenting.

[Seasons]

Excellent post, Selu Gigage.

Always it comes down to the woman. Where's the father or coparent? Is he/she abandoning his/her children as well? In the "abandonment" argument shouldn't both parents be at home to raise the child in order to be real, full parents? But, hey, there's that gotta work for food and rent thing I mentioned above, so even in 2-parent homes it seems like someone is only contributing a facade of parenting.

The response I've sometimes seen to this is "but-but-but the woman is the only parent who can breastfeed!"

Leaving aside the very real population of families who don't breastfeed (including adopted kids, kids who are weaned, moms who can't for whatever reason nurse), there are many responses:

-Kids are adaptable. Some kids reverse cycle, nursing at night. (Mine does.) They get just as much breastmilk as kids of SAHMs do. (In fact, studies suggest that because nighttime milk is higher in fat, night-nursing kids are arguably *better* fed.)

-Some babes, who drink milk during the day (such as mine before 6months old), can drink pumped milk, and some moms are fortunate enough to have a workplace that allows pumping. Pumped, refrigerated milk is only marginally less nutritious than direct-from-the-breast milk, a margin that is eliminated when you factor back in those nighttime nursings.

-Many (most?) babes reduce or eliminate their daytime nursings near the end of their first year. At that point, SAH and WOH moms are nursing "the same" to their babes.

But more politically speaking, I'm -- curious? vaguely troubled? -- that the breast has become this century's uterus as a "biological mandate" for women to stay home, out of the workplace.

--Seasons, still nursing her reverse-cycling preschooler, and working full-time

[koofie]

I just wanted to add my two cents. I am a single mamma who MUST work, however, at some point I would be interested in homeschooling/unschooling my child IF I am able to.

I do feel that right now, ieven IF I were able to stay home, my daughter would be better off in her daycare. At her daycare, which is run through her provider's house, they do cool stuff like crafts and play games and play on the swingset outside, stuff that I know I would LOVE to do with my daughter, but probably wouldn't at home because I am just not set up well to work with small kids. I spend a lot of my time off reading or doing solitary things. I love to spend time with my daughter, but I am not really comfortable going to play groups and stuff because I am shy. My daughter is also very quiet, and it takes her about .5 to 1 hour to warm up to people before she is ready to look at them, much less play with them. At her daycare, she sees the same kids everyday and plays with them readily, wheras she is still shy around our neighbor (also 2) whom we see about 2x per week.

Due to my daughter's personality and my own, I think she is better off in a daycare that is loving and happy. She thinks of Mina, her provider, as "Mina Mommy" and is nearly as comfortable there as at home. Right now I feel very comforable leaving my daughter at her daycare. sure she is missing out on some things because she is with me, but at the same time she is gaining so much that I could not give her, or at least not as regularly as she is getting it now.

[Belleweather]

I am a married soon-to-be mama who works because she enjoys it.

I work in a law firm that does public interest representation for children with special health care needs so that they can get thealth care coverage that is adequate to address their needs. I'm also a full-time law student.

Last year, I represented a family whose baby had severe GI problems and could only eat one specially made formula, which Medicaid and WIC wouldn't pay for and the family absolutely couldn't afford. That baby would have literally starved to death without our help. Six months ago, I secured insurance benefits for speech and occupational therapy for a severly autistic seven year old boy who had been cut off by his insurance company. Two months later, he said his first word - 'mama'. I've worked for benefits to keep children out of institutions, to pay for open heart surgery, and to cure diseases that you'd never think you'd see in the civilized world.

My baby can be brought in to breast feed, can take EBM, and can be cared for by her Daddy or another loving caregiver and can bond with me during the period I'm not at work. But I don't know *anyone else* who has the training and experience to do what I do all day. And if you, or Mothering Magazine, or anyone else in the world is of the opinion that my ability to breastfeed is more important than the lives of those other children, then in my humble opinion you need to sort out your priorities. And I really hope that you're never in the position to need my services.

I wouldn't walk away from MDC due to their exceedingly regrettable stance on WOHM. But I will make a commitment that neither I nor my family will be giving them or their advertisers one red cent. And I'll be informing the other AP-involved business in my area who carry and recommed their magazine of their stance as well. I love the community here, but I don't believe in economically supporting people who think that I'm a second class citizen or that I will be a second-rate mother.

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by asherah

Ugh.
I have been avoiding this thread, but I feel compelled to speak up.

A year and a half ago I e-mailed an editor at Mothering about the issue of wohm. I was working and dh was a sahd.. was wondering why wohm issues were rarely if ever addressed.

I was told the policy of Mothering was to support sahM.. and I emphasize the M... until a child is 3. I was told that given this policy, Mothering was not willing to be inclusive of Wohms.. because that would be like saying you advocate breastfeeding and then being inclusive of formula feeding. That is a direct quote.

I was told there were other magazines that serve wohm, so Mothering felt it was important to serve and support Sahm exclusively. (yeah, like I can stomach Working Mother. Ugh)

This is why I did not renew my subscription to Mothering. I did not write back to ask about at least including wohm of children over 3.. and addressing returning to the workforce while upholding ap/gd/nfl principles... because it seemed futile. I had my answer.

So why do I stay here? The presence of the wohm forum seems to suggest there is a desire to include wohm here... though I do not post there anymore, after discovering that some people lurk there merely to make themselves feel superior. I am not about to pour my heart out anymore about my work/life balance issues so that others can use my struggles as ammunition in the mommy wars.

I can't say I am thrilled about this thread. I feel that forcing the issue may well result in the loss of the wohm forum, and a formal statement that wohm are in fact NOT included in the mission of MDC. In which case I would have to leave.

Not that this place isn't full of some really cruel, awful, nasty anti-wohm sentiment and mommy war snipping. It is. But at least it has become pretty much confined to the sahm forum so it isn't always in my face.

Why was there a WOHM forum and not a SAHM forum for so long then???

(Not saying this is not true....just wondering why)

Sorry if this has already been answered....I haven't made it through all of the posts yet...

[asherah]

My real, heartfelt response to the accusation that I am abandoning my child would get me banned. Though on some levels it would be worth it... to just once.. really let it fly here.

Thankfully, the amazing responses by some of the amazing women here have lent me self control.

And see, that's why I stay. Despite the fact that it is ok to say things like that to sister mamas here. Can't have harmless innuendo, noooo... but we can say things that strike poison at the very heart-center of another woman. Can't call someone too strongly on their racism or homophobia.. cause that would hurt their feelings.. but we can spew such base toxin at other women it makes them choke on their tears..

I stay for women like Selu and Guerillamama and the other awesome, amazing beautiful mamas who teach me and give me strength.

I stay to learn about gd, to get advice on living and parenting more mindfully.

I know I am not going to get any support here as a wohm. I also know that it is perfectly acceptable here to be cruel and ugly to wohms. I ALSO know that some people can only feel good about their own choices by being cruel and ugly to others.

Luckily, I don't need the official validation of MDC, Peggy O or anyone else.
If that gets me kicked out of the official ap/nfl club, oh well. The fact is that I am the expert in what's right for MY family. I am glad to learn from others.. but I don't need anyone's validation.

The women here I do connect with give me hope there is a way to build bridges and make things better for all kinds of families.

If others don't want to cross those bridges, well, they can eat my dust.


An old Romani saying:
"The dogs bark, but the caravan passes on"
None of the barking in here will derail my caravan.

[asherah]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

Why was there a WOHM forum and not a SAHM forum for so long???

I think Cynthia has answered that question over and over and over again in various discussions of the issue.
So I won't be going there.

[singermom]

Originally Posted by asherah

I stay for women like Selu and Guerillamama and the other awesome, amazing beautiful mamas who teach me and give me strength.

The women here I do connect with give me hope there is a way to build bridges and make things better for all kinds of families.

Asherah, you are one of the reasons I stay.

Mia

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

Why was there a WOHM forum and not a SAHM forum for so long then???

(Not saying this is not true....just wondering why)

Sorry if this has already been answered....I haven't made it through all of the posts yet...

Sorry... :

[tricia80]

Proud Wohm Here!!!

I applaud all the SAHD's.... they rule

Who said MOMS can be the only one at home...

SOCIETY....


Well im not here to please society... im here to love and cherish my family.. yes im out of the home and..... what makes me any less of a parent than a SAHM.. why will my child be screwed up because she is raised with one parent or her mama works...

oh yeah statistics.. which are highly suspicious 95% of the time...

I am a MOTHER whether i sahm or wohm or wahm... i RAISE my dd.. someone else may care for her but I RAISE her..

this is sad on a site that is supposed to be PRO-Mothering that this divide is here... How about some SAHM's help WOHM's by support.. or if u know a mama who wants to or has to work offer low care child care and care for that child AP style...

always ppl judging... well guess what.. u have NO right to judge me or any other WOHM/WAHM etc...

NO ONE IS PERFECT SO GET OFF YOUR (general your) HIGH HORSES...

lets help each other... woman have been put down long enough by men.. why are we doing it to each other...

[asherah]

Mia

[member]

Originally Posted by asherah

And see, that's why I stay. Despite the fact that it is ok to say things like that to sister mamas here. Can't have harmless innuendo, noooo... but we can say things that strike poison at the very heart-center of another woman. Can't call someone too strongly on their racism or homophobia.. cause that would hurt their feelings.. but we can spew such base toxin at other women it makes them choke on their tears.

So much word to this. Mama, this is so spot-on, I want to cut & paste it everywhere.

Originally Posted by asherah

I stay for women like Selu and Guerillamama and the other awesome, amazing beautiful mamas who teach me and give me strength.

I stay for you, hlvdatsi. It's the strong-living, fabulous mamas that keep me coming back.

Have a vision not clouded by fear. --- Tsalagi proverb

[guerrillamama]

asherah

I just want to give props to a friend of mine who will probably never see this, who lurks here occasionally but has never posted, as far as I know. She is pretty mainstream by the standards of most people here. She does a lot of AP stuff but not the whole laundry list; she's not very GD, and she's not NFL at all. If she did post here, some of you would probably flame her to bits.

She's a SAHM and happy to be one. But she has never given me the slightest bit of judgment or pity, only love and support and friendship. If not for her help, I'm not sure how I would've finished law school. She has never tried to tell me what to do; she respects me enough to trust my ability to make the best decisions for me and my son. She never makes me feel like a charity case, just a friend and a sister. She seems to think that we're on the same side - that we should be helping each other raise our kids, instead of competing or cutting each other down. Isn't that nutty?

Thanks onni if you're reading this.

We don't have to give into the divide-and-conquer if we are smart enough to see past it.

[musingmama]

Originally Posted by asherah

And see, that's why I stay. Despite the fact that it is ok to say things like that to sister mamas here. Can't have harmless innuendo, noooo... but we can say things that strike poison at the very heart-center of another woman. Can't call someone too strongly on their racism or homophobia.. cause that would hurt their feelings.. but we can spew such base toxin at other women it makes them choke on their tears..

I stay for women like Selu and Guerillamama and the other awesome, amazing beautiful mamas who teach me and give me strength.

I stay to learn about gd, to get advice on living and parenting more mindfully.


The fact is that I am the expert in what's right for MY family. I am glad to learn from others.. but I don't need anyone's validation.

The women here I do connect with give me hope there is a way to build bridges and make things better for all kinds of families.

If others don't want to cross those bridges, well, they can eat my dust.


An old Romani saying:
"The dogs bark, but the caravan passes on"
None of the barking in here will derail my caravan.

I have been a little stunned lately by soo much bs around here.... I really value the advice i get here and definitely do not come here to judge other mamas... I thought we were all on the same page with that, but I have come to see that some mamas need to stay entrenched up on their patriarchial cushioned pedestals so they can feel selfrighteous glee and superficial power b/c they make "the right choices" or some such thing.... but really if they were so secure in their life choices, why would they feel the need to go out of their way to cut down and demean other mamas?!

[chalupamom]

I have just read this whole thread and I don't even know where to begin.

And so I won't. I feel like I've been through the wringer on this one so many times that my heart is actually hurting. And guess what? I'm not working for pay right now. That's right. A bonafied SAHM is hurt and angry and crying because so much of what I know to be true is being completely disregarded and invalidated by a person and a company for which I previously had a great deal of respect. So much of my past and, possibly, my future has been condemned.

Is Mothering just another voice telling so many women that they aren't good enough? Add it to the cacophany, maybe it'll blend in.

Turning the computer off now.

[Lucky Charm]

As i was reading this thread again, something occured to me. What occured to me was this thank God my husband doesnt lurk here, he would be crushed to think that perfect strangers, people who are completely clueless, would be so critical of me, our parenting and his ability to nurture. For the last ten years, i have worked either at night, or the weekends, while my husband was home, more commonly known as "tag team". This arrangement was so our children were either in my care or his, and on my days off, both of us. We sacrificed alot, so our kids could be in the care of either parent. My husband who was brought up in one of the most dysfunctional homes one can imagine (including really being *ABANDONED* by his own father) took great pride in his ability to parent alone with our me as his security blanket. To really know what each cry meant, what the subtle nuances of nuturing really mean. That he could comfort and rock our babies, to heat the breast milk to just the right temperature. To help with homework while carrying the baby in a football hold. That he was able to keep the kids on some sort of routine, and most importantly that he was so much more than just a paycheck.

So to those of you who think i am wrong and criticize me, my husband and his ability to parent and nurture simply beacuse he cant lactate, as my beloved grandma would say (and she was a working mom before it was the fashion, after WW2) go fly a kite.