Killing Frogs - Page 4

[USAmma]

I have a spirited child and I hate it when people judge her or me (and my parenting) when the fact is she is just developing differently than other kids. A little faster in some areas, a little slower in others. I'm sure your ds is the same-- and he'll get it someday about the frogs and empathy.

It was so easy for me to judge other people before I had kids of my own. When Abi was a baby and toddler, I used to think to myself, "My child will never do . . ."and sure enough that has come back to bite me every time. :LOL

[OnTheFence]

Originally Posted by USAmma

I have a spirited child and I hate it when people judge her or me (and my parenting) when the fact is she is just developing differently than other kids. A little faster in some areas, a little slower in others. I'm sure your ds is the same-- and he'll get it someday about the frogs and empathy.

It was so easy for me to judge other people before I had kids of my own. When Abi was a baby and toddler, I used to think to myself, "My child will never do . . ."and sure enough that has come back to bite me every time. :LOL

O yes, I know exactly what you mean. My oldest is 8. Out of the three children I have now, she had more of my undivided attention, I was so overly AP, she was a vegetarian, I did Montessori at home with her for three years -- the list goes on and on, and I said "she will never do ...." or I would put it off on my "great" parenting that she would choose not to do XY&Z. Let's just say, I've eaten a lot of crow.

[oceanbaby]

While i am not condemning anyone, I do not think that killing animals for fun past a certain age of reason is normal.

I can agree with this, but I do not agree that the "age of reason" is 4. While my ds has not done the kinds of things we are discussing, I would not be concerned if he did. I would be upset, and I would communicate as much to him. It is not okay in our family to hurt animals, but I would not think that he was disturbed.

He still asks me to if we can go visit Thomas on the Island of Sodor. He's still trying to figure out why I can't make the rain start and stop. He has absolutely no concept about death. We were in fact just today talking about what would happen if the car crashed (as I explained I couldn't read his book to him while I was driving), and when I tried to explain that we would get really hurt, he said that we could just put a band aid on.

So if he were to step on a frog, it would be coming from a place of ignorance and curiosity, not one of deriving a sick thrill by killing a living creature. Repeated behavior absolutely should be addressed, which the OP is doing. But at this age I just can't accept that it is a sign of a disturbed child.

Since he is my oldest I can't say yet at what age it would really begin to concern me. But having a 4 year old (just turned 4), I can say it is older than that.

[mamakay]

Four is still really, really young. Barely out of toddlerhood.
I'm not sure that all the men who claimed they never thought of killing a bug or a snail or a frog would even remember what they did or didn't do when they were four.
I'd just see it as a teaching opportunity.
I'd find a tadpole spot and take him there sometimes to watch how they grow. Get him a cute froggy stuffed animal. Turn him into a bona fide frog lover.

[edamommy]

hmmmmmmmmm my ds is 26 months old. I am not saying that he "grasps" death or the likes, but he DOES understand pain. He knows that he cannot pick up or attempt to pick up the cat or the rabbit as it may hurt them. He knows that his feet are for walking and jumping and kicking balls (etc) and NEVER for hurting an animal or another human. He KNOWS this! He converses about it. He follows the rule... once he pulled the cats tail and got bit... ONCE! And he's never abused the other animals either. Or his friends lizard and turtle. He is VERY curious. He is VERY active. But he truly understands that! And, his best buddy is 4... and he isn't a frog squisher (or whatever) either! SO, are these exceptional little boys?

[joesmom]

First I will say that the thought of my son smashing a frog makes me very sad. He has never done anything like that. He does not kill spiders or worms or bugs- although he swats flies for my mom sometimes. Once we were outside & he stepped on an ant & I told him I thought it was disrespectful to step on a bug when WE were the ones in HIS home... He is now a major bug rescuer & will come & tell me when he finds a spider in the house, before my mom gets to it, because she usually kills them.

Having said that, I do not in ANY way think that your son is messed up, sick, or twisted for what he did. I think he is young & he does not really comprehend that dead is dead & that animals- even frogs!- feel pain. I think as long as you continue to tell him that it was wrong, that will go a long way to ensuring that he does not do it again.

When I was little I pulled the legs off a daddy long legs because they continued to move afterwards- & I can remember squishing gypsy moth worms because their guts were bright green. I am not proud of that & I have not told Joe about it but I am telling you, just to reassure you that not every child who hurts small creatures will grow up into a cold blooded serial killer. Jeffrey Dahmer, yes, but how many more times have we heard the neighbors of a convicted murderer say, "He always seemed like such a NICE boy?..."

I can remember the boys in my 9th grade gym class hitting a turtle with a baseball bat, & I am getting sick to my stomach just typing that. I can't understand THAT type of cruelty AT ALL, but I don't think your son belongs in that category!

I was thinking, IF he does this again, what do you think he would do if you burst into tears? Because I know when Joe stepped on the ant, he could tell by my voice that I was appalled. It had a big impact on him I think.

Good luck to you, & please don't worry about your son growing up to store body parts in his basement. I can only imagine the struggles you have had, raising a son with bi polar disorder- my mom's 70 year old friend has this & it is a very hard illness to cope with.

[joesmom]

Originally Posted by edamommy

SO, are these exceptional little boys?

I would say more likely, they are normal, healthy kids. Just like the OP's kid.

My son, as I said above, has never smashed a frog, but he DID go through a biting stage. He bit several people, hard. None of his cousins went through that stage, but that does not make them right & Joe wrong. It makes them different. The worst thing we can do, is hear about a kid hurting an animal & then put a label on him... that will help to MAKE him turn into what we think he will become. Does that make sense?

I am gonna stop now, since I realized it is after midnight & Joe is still up. :

[USAmma]

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[UUMom]

I am having trouble sleeping, thinking about this, and I have decide that instead of editing my words, I am trying to figure out why my words are bothering me- at 4:16 AM. So I've decided to not edit, but to soften my position.

While I know all boys don't kill animals, and we shouldn't assume they do/will, or completely accept that its 'normal'-- gosh that's a loaded word- I do think it's possible for a young child to have poor impulse control and not understand the full ramifications of his/her actions. If this is an isolated case, then I think a parent can chalk it up to a child who didn't get it. I personally would keep an eye on a child who killed an animal. I prob would micromanage for a time, just to see what was going on for him.

I wouldn't worry 'forever'. Impulsive things do happen whem you're little- that's a given. However, if my child was absorbed in killing small animals, or deliberately went out hunting frogs to kill them, then I would consider it something to worry about and address. I also think its possible for a child who enaged in this behavior to become a kind and loving adult, as people have related in this thread. Yet I would still wonder about the feelings of a small child engaged in this sort of thing.

[Ceinwen]

I would say more likely, they are normal, healthy kids. Just like the OP's kid.

I really don't see what all the deep introspection is.

It's not like he's 12 and setting cats on fire. Yes, it's not nice or great that's he's squishing frogs - but like the OP said maybe I don't place the same level of importance on frogs that others are.

And as for bugs - I live in Northern Ontario where there are TONS of mosquitos and blackflies. From an early age kids are taught to swat and kill flying things, because guess what? They bite like a !@#$ and really hurt.

And ITA, like one pp said - 4 is just barely out of toddlerhood.

He knows that he cannot pick up or attempt to pick up the cat or the rabbit as it may hurt them. He knows that his feet are for walking and jumping and kicking balls (etc) and NEVER for hurting an animal or another human. He KNOWS this! He converses about it.

I guess my dd is really slow then. :LOL She's 28 months and she doesn't converse about *anything*. As far as she's concerned, her feet are under her control and she's still figuring out what they do. And she totally does not understand the concept of pain.

And while I am *not* generalizing (as I do not know *all* two year olds) I can say that the majority of the toddlers in our AP playgroup don't either.

[edamommy]

Originally Posted by zoesmummy

I really don't see what all the deep introspection is.

It's not like he's 12 and setting cats on fire. Yes, it's not nice or great that's he's squishing frogs - but like the OP said maybe I don't place the same level of importance on frogs that others are.

And as for bugs - I live in Northern Ontario where there are TONS of mosquitos and blackflies. From an early age kids are taught to swat and kill flying things, because guess what? They bite like a !@#$ and really hurt.

And ITA, like one pp said - 4 is just barely out of toddlerhood.



I guess my dd is really slow then. :LOL She's 28 months and she doesn't converse about *anything*. As far as she's concerned, her feet are under her control and she's still figuring out what they do. And she totally does not understand the concept of pain.

And while I am *not* generalizing (as I do not know *all* two year olds) I can say that the majority of the toddlers in our AP playgroup don't either.

I'm so glad to know so many emotionally advanced boys, then!

[Ceinwen]

That wasn't very nice.

I was just saying that I think it can take several years for empathy to develop, and that my dd wasn't there yet.

[OnTheFence]

Originally Posted by joesmom

I am not proud of that & I have not told Joe about it but I am telling you, just to reassure you that not every child who hurts small creatures will grow up into a cold blooded serial killer. Jeffrey Dahmer, yes, but how many more times have we heard the neighbors of a convicted murderer say, "He always seemed like such a NICE boy?..."

I was thinking, IF he does this again, what do you think he would do if you burst into tears? Because I know when Joe stepped on the ant, he could tell by my voice that I was appalled. It had a big impact on him I think.

For people reading this thread, I think they should know that Jeffrey Dahmer was an older child that mutilated household pets and wild animals. He didn't just kill them, most that time he set out and hunted and stole them, then pretty much dissected them alive. He had other pathology in his background as well.

[UUMom]

That's a good question--"Why all the deep introspection?"

But i think the answer is a simple one- we're all thoughtful parents who think.

Otherwise what's the point of any of our introspection and discussion here?

Love, Jack Handly

[Brisen]

Originally Posted by edamommy

If my ds EVER so much as kicks dirt towards a frog he'll not see the light of day for weeks!

Hey, kids are animals too. They deserve fresh air and sunshine just as much as any ant, frog, chicken, or pig. :

I agree with those who have said this behaviour would be a concern in an older kid; 4 is young to understand everything. Oh, and just to "qualify" my opinion, I have two boys, 5 and 3. The 3 yo squished a couple of ants when they started coming into our house with the warm weather, and he didn't really know what they were. (He was 2 the last time he saw ants, or any bugs other than the occasional spider.) He now carefully picks them up in tissue and puts them outside. My 5 yo has never squished anything, and admonishes other kids who do so -- even the bully kids who have pushed him around, hit him, and teased him over things of less significance. So I'm not a mom of thoughtless, horrible, critter killin' kids just trying to make excuses.

[Ceinwen]

But i think the answer is a simple one- we're all thoughtful parents who think.

Well duh. Thanks for the clarification...

I am so trying to not take this personally - I was only trying to say that the answer to the question/problem was relatively simple and people were getting *way* off track with the comments.

No wonder people hesitate to come here for help.

[UUMom]

Hey- don't take that personally. I was trying to be ironic by stating the obvious.

And maybe it's Jack Handy-- or maybe I'm too old for that joke to work with younger people.

[Ceinwen]

I'll apologize then.

I didn't take it in the manner intended.

But I do intend to find out who Jack Handy is... :LOL

I'm still learning the intricacies of online discussion.

[UUMom]

Jack Handy was a character on Saturday Night Live, who used to pretend to be be deep by stating the obvious or the absurd in a soft, comforting voice and then going on say something really ridiculous. There would be soothing ocean sounds or Muzak in the background. So I was trying to pretend i was deep by being obvious. :

Sometimes my jokes are too deep---or too dumb. Here are some of Jack's Deep Thoughts:

:LOLhttp://www.scoopy.net/humor/deep.htm

[cmb123]

Jumping in late, I just read this whole thread.
This stood out...

Originally Posted by OnTheFence

I want to say that I don't put frogs on the same "level" as some of you are, that is for sure. And I guess I don't get some of the comments. I've probably run over more frogs in my driveway and I never give a second thought to their pain and suffering, however I don't want my son killing them for any reason. .

And also another post the OP mentioned that they do kill bugs and other "nastys" in thier family.
I guess if you as a parent have no problem with that, it could be confusing to a 4 year old as to what's OK to kill and what's not. If you are running over frogs and squishing them with your car, why can't her do it with "his" car? Right?

In my house it's not ok to kill anything exept mosquitos ( i know some will think that's hypocritical, i think it is too, but we have a West Nile virus here). My kids have been taught to respect all living creatures, and have been taught the roll these creatures have in our world. None of my kids are animal killers- but each of them are obsessed with creatures of all kinds (right now my son is obsessed with butterflys) they observe them, read about them, talk about them- but never kill or intentionally hurt. But that's becuase that's what OUR family believes. Different families have different ideas about what's OK. As for boy's will be boy's...My son is the most compassionate of my children when it comes to creatures.

So I guess I'm just saying, if you want it to sink in with him that killing the frogs is NOT ok with you, than you should maybe show some compassion for the ones you squish it the driveway? I think kids learn best by following parent examples.

Even though to me what you've descibed so far and his age doesn't sound like he's gonna end up on America's Most Wanted...I do want to add that my brother IS a sociopath, and did find great pleasure in harming and torchering animals as I child. I wouldn't just brush it off (not that you are) I'd just keep track and watch for other warning signs.