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Killing Frogs - Page 5

post #81 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence
For people reading this thread, I think they should know that Jeffrey Dahmer was an older child that mutilated household pets and wild animals. He didn't just kill them, most that time he set out and hunted and stole them, then pretty much dissected them alive. He had other pathology in his background as well.

YES! That was my point, that not every toddler who kills the odd bug (or frog! ) is going to torture cats as he gets older...
post #82 of 256
I've been thinking about this some more, and I talked to my husband about it last night. This is going in a different direction other than when empathy should or could develop, and also whether or not to treat frogs like you would mammals. (I admit, I'm in the speciest camp that thinks frogs are extremely important as fellow vertebrates but insects aren't really on my protection list.)

Maybe someone already brought this up, but I think my husband had some really good insight. He felt that kids he knew growing up who hurt animals had other stuff going on at home or in some aspect of their lives that was bothering them. You mentioned that your son might be micromanaged in other areas at home, maybe you could re-exam that? Also, is there something going on, like tensions in the family about x,y,z? Kids are so very perceptive and so very effected by tensions and issues that might not have anything to do with them directly. None of this is to say that kids who have hurt animals at one time or another are in the path of becoming adult killers, just that something(s) may very well be upsetting these kids and that's a possible way for them to express it.
post #83 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytolittlelilly
Maybe someone already brought this up, but I think my husband had some really good insight. He felt that kids he knew growing up who hurt animals had other stuff going on at home or in some aspect of their lives that was bothering them. You mentioned that your son might be micromanaged in other areas at home, maybe you could re-exam that? Also, is there something going on, like tensions in the family about x,y,z?
I feel bad for the OP- like she is going to be watching every move this little boy makes- waiting for the next shoe to drop...

I do agree that sometimes when a kid hurts animals it is because of problems at home, or due to deep seated emotional issues- but sometimes, it is just because the kid does not fully "get" what he is doing.
post #84 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by joesmom
YES! That was my point, that not every toddler who kills the odd bug (or frog! ) is going to torture cats as he gets older...
frog, cat... what's the difference? Soft and fuzzy and NOT so much soft and fuzzy?

You know, for ME and MY family this may have happend ONCE (may happen once) ... but it wouldn't happen again. I'm mostly shocked that this kid did it more than once?!?!? Sure, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt the first time around... but someone missed the bus to have this sort of thing happen more than once! :
post #85 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by edamommy
frog, cat... what's the difference? Soft and fuzzy and NOT so much soft and fuzzy?
OT. Or least somewhat OT.

Your view is interesting and I would like to understand it better.

So I am curious... where do you (and other gentle mamas who don't like the idea of anything being killed - even bugs) draw the line that it is OK to kill things? Are plants OK to kill, even though they have capabilities you might not have known about, like the ability to signal each other with biochemical "screams" when one is being maimed or killed, as a warning to others nearby? That makes me sad, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying a bouquet of flowers.

Do you mow your lawn? That's done for purely aesthetic reasons, and results in the deaths of toads, snakes, butterfiles, and other insects.

So that you know where I am coming from... I identified myself as a speciesist in a PP. I think killing some species is no problem (e.g., ants, spiders, snakes) and killing others is a problem unless for food (e.g., frogs, cats). My criteria are: if I feel threatened by it (snake) or it's absolutely nothing like me (ant) I don't mind killing it. If it's like me somehow (frogs' cute soft belly :LOL ) I do mind. But I am probably not enlightened, and have never really given this a lot of thought.
post #86 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence
WOW.

It's either a normal developmental thing, or my child is warped and not "normal".

I want to say that I don't put frogs on the same "level" as some of you are, that is for sure. And I guess I don't get some of the comments. I've probably run over more frogs in my driveway and I never give a second thought to their pain and suffering, however I don't want my son killing them for any reason. I just love the description one of the posters gave about the Tonka Truck (this is sarcastic) but more than likely my son got this from the fact he has seen his fair share of frogs, smashed like pancakes in the driveway and road. Not that I approve, but he is FOUR, and they do not have the cognitive abilites that adults have.

I'll just add one more thing to be paranoid about and when the police interview me or Prime Time does in a few years, I will reflect back on all this and if he turns out to be a Doctor working for Green Peace, I'll just have to think it was dumb luck my messed up kid got to that point. Oy.

OTF...why do you run over so many frogs?? I really don't understand that statement. I have frogs, squirells, birds, worms, snakes in my driveway, and I check before pulling out/in, to make sure nothing is in the way. The times I have run over roadkill (already dead) I feel kind of nauseous and sad. I think seeing your words about the frogs that you run over, and how you never care or give it a thought...puts this in a whole different light. It makes much more sense now. If you don't care at all when you run over a frog, why don't you want your son doing the same thing? I'm sure it's going to make it all the more difficult for you son to learn empathy for animals when there are so many exceptions around him.

Count me among those who find this disturbing. I think it is common for kids, especially boys, to behave this way...but, many things in our culture are common and disturbing. Animal abuse is a risk factor for later psychopathy...I think this behavior is right on the edge of very alarming. Since the child is so young, and he may have gotten messages that this is ok, it may not be such a huge warning sign. But, I am with the other posters in that I think it's awful, and it should be troubling to parents and all adults. I guess I am one of those people with a child too young to have a valid opinion...My dd is 18 months, and a few months ago, she used to take great pleasure in pulling the cats tails/fur...but, she is already out-growing the behavior and treating the cats gently. I wouldn't expect to see that kind of thing at age four, and I would be disturbed.
post #87 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunklin'sMommy
OT. Or least somewhat OT.

Your view is interesting and I would like to understand it better.

So I am curious... where do you (and other gentle mamas who don't like the idea of anything being killed - even bugs) draw the line that it is OK to kill things? Are plants OK to kill, even though they have capabilities you might not have known about, like the ability to signal each other with biochemical "screams" when one is being maimed or killed, as a warning to others nearby? That makes me sad, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying a bouquet of flowers.

Do you mow your lawn? That's done for purely aesthetic reasons, and results in the deaths of toads, snakes, butterfiles, and other insects.

So that you know where I am coming from... I identified myself as a speciesist in a PP. I think killing some species is no problem (e.g., ants, spiders, snakes) and killing others is a problem unless for food (e.g., frogs, cats). My criteria are: if I feel threatened by it (snake) or it's absolutely nothing like me (ant) I don't mind killing it. If it's like me somehow (frogs' cute soft belly :LOL ) I do mind. But I am probably not enlightened, and have never really given this a lot of thought.
You know, I've stopped answering these stupid questions LONG AGO, or I should say, VALIDATING my "line" ... Yah, we mow our lawn. Yah, I swat masquitos. Yah, we eat vegtables (doy)... Our line is drawn by intelligent compassion...
post #88 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by joesmom
I feel bad for the OP- like she is going to be watching every move this little boy makes- waiting for the next shoe to drop...

I do agree that sometimes when a kid hurts animals it is because of problems at home, or due to deep seated emotional issues- but sometimes, it is just because the kid does not fully "get" what he is doing.

I don't think she absolutely must watch every move her son makes, but she could do that if she wants to. Really though, I don't think monitoring every little move he makes is, in itself, going to be that helpful for this boy in the long term. I'm of the opinion that watching every move he makes might even make things worse.

I think the fact that it's happened repeatedly, though, probably warrants mom and dad stepping back to take a look at the big picture to see what thing(s) might be troubling him.
post #89 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by edamommy
hmmmmmmmmm my ds is 26 months old. I am not saying that he "grasps" death or the likes, but he DOES understand pain. He knows that he cannot pick up or attempt to pick up the cat or the rabbit as it may hurt them. He knows that his feet are for walking and jumping and kicking balls (etc) and NEVER for hurting an animal or another human. He KNOWS this! He converses about it. He follows the rule... once he pulled the cats tail and got bit... ONCE! And he's never abused the other animals either. Or his friends lizard and turtle. He is VERY curious. He is VERY active. But he truly understands that! And, his best buddy is 4... and he isn't a frog squisher (or whatever) either! SO, are these exceptional little boys?
Here's an idea.. lets tone back the sarcasm.. You son may have learned not to hurt the animals because your cat bit him.. Pain is a great motivater.. Your son and his best buddy MAY be exceptional children.. But the children who do this AREN'T deviants either..

Different children learn mentally developmental things at different ages.. Just as with every other developmental stage..

And your implying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is at best condesending and at worst alienating to people who MAY have agreed with you if you could manage to present your views in a different way.

Warm Squishy Feelings..
Dyan
post #90 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunklin'sMommy
So I am curious... where do you (and other gentle mamas who don't like the idea of anything being killed - even bugs) draw the line that it is OK to kill things? .
For me personally I dont' condone the intentional killing of anything. I have taught my children to respect the trees and plants around us just as much as I have with animals. We don't pick flowers for fun, or squish bugs. Last year my front porch light was out all summer because a nest of hornets had moved in- I won't even kill those.
I will admit though, that I have always been WAY overly sensitive to those things. Seeing a kid carve letters into a tree breaks my heart as much as hearing the frog story. I've been that way since I was a kid
I have an almost impossible time recognizing the frog squishing thing as "normal kid behavior" I even get really, really upset if I see kids chasing ducks. I just think it's mean and can't wrap my mind around being the kid doing the chasing, and enjoying being mean. I just can't.
I do mow my lawn. However, I do it about once a month as opposed to twice a week as my neighbors do. Of course we don't do chem lawn, and I often have big patches of tall grass I leave if there a log or spider nest or something that is obviously a home to someone.
Like i said I think I'm abmormally sensitive, but I've always known that, and it's perfectly OK with me!
post #91 of 256


Quote:
Different children learn mentally developmental things at different ages.. Just as with every other developmental stage..
Quote:
And your implying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is at best condesending and at worst alienating to people who MAY have agreed with you if you could manage to present your views in a different way.
Thank you Pynki. That is *EXACTLY* what I was so obviously ineptly trying to convey. That's all... man, I gotta learn how to say what I mean!
post #92 of 256

Re:

I didn't read all of the responses, so if this has been brought up, just disregard my response.

To the OP--do you have family pets? I have found (in my limited experience) that kids who are brought up with pets do better around other animals because they have a chance to see that animals do some of the same things that we do (mammals or not)--like eat, sleep, etc. They also see how their parents interact and treat animals. They see good examples of behavior around living creatures when parents model feeding/grooming/caring for a pet.
We have an assortment of pets, and when my dd was a little toddler, she would try to pull the tails of the dogs (and was always redirected), but as she grew, she learned to respect them and help to care for them. She understands (even at 3) that they can be cold, hungry, or tired. If she sees the dog shaking (from a thunderstorm) she says: "He's scared." And she'll cover the dog with a blanket when this happens.

If you don't have a pet, why not get a pet frog? If that's out of the question, how about some really good books on frogs? Show your son how they live--how they eat and sleep. If you can't find a good book, maybe a stuffed frog that you name will have an impact. Give him a name, and a "personality". This might help him to make a connection.
Maybe there's a good DVD/video on frogs. Something to help him make a connection.

I would say that the first time he killed a frog, consider it a learning experience. The first time would give you a chance to talk about living creatures, God (if that fits your beliefs), empathy, etc., but after that, it would seem to be a problem.
And I don't know what kind of a problem it would be called--but killing is a problem, especially when it happens repeatedly.

Best of luck to you, I am sure that this is troubling and stressful for your whole family.
post #93 of 256
Quote:
Last year my front porch light was out all summer because a nest of hornets had moved in- I won't even kill those.
See, that's where I draw the line.

Those hornets (and I've been in a similar situation) could *seriously* harm my child.

You can't reason with stingers! :LOL

Myself - I know how to avoid a nest. But one split second, and my toddler could be the centre of a very deadly hornet attack.

I just couldn't risk that.
post #94 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by edamommy
frog, cat... what's the difference? Soft and fuzzy and NOT so much soft and fuzzy?
You missed my point- I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ME :)
...not every toddler who kills the odd bug (or frog! ) is going to torture cats as he gets older...
I meant to say that because he killed a frog at four, we do not have to expect that by the time he is ten he will be torturing cats. Does that make more sense to you?

(Frankly, I am not a cat person, & it makes me just as sad to hear about frogs being hurt as it does to hear about cats being hurt.)
post #95 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by edamommy
hmmmmmmmmm my ds is 26 months old. I am not saying that he "grasps" death or the likes, but he DOES understand pain. He knows that he cannot pick up or attempt to pick up the cat or the rabbit as it may hurt them. He knows that his feet are for walking and jumping and kicking balls (etc) and NEVER for hurting an animal or another human. He KNOWS this! He converses about it. He follows the rule... once he pulled the cats tail and got bit... ONCE! And he's never abused the other animals either. Or his friends lizard and turtle. He is VERY curious. He is VERY active. But he truly understands that! And, his best buddy is 4... and he isn't a frog squisher (or whatever) either! SO, are these exceptional little boys?
Not sure why you are getting so defensive in this thread. Your boy sounds wonderful. You are lucky he understands how to treat animals at so young an age. Many little ones are still not sure. To condemn a mama just because her little guy is exploring what he can do is not supportive at all. The OP is looking for support not negative judgement. Your boy sounds great. I think everyone writing herein can agree that all boys are not into killing. And, yes, some people go overboard and kill animals as a precursor to killing people. But, this little guy is 4. He is most likely just exploring and he will outgrow it, especially with a mama who is concerned enough to write in mdc and ask for help (not judgement).

You know, I am not even slightly religious but I do think the golden rule is a good one: if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
post #96 of 256
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edamommy
frog, cat... what's the difference? Soft and fuzzy and NOT so much soft and fuzzy?

You know, for ME and MY family this may have happend ONCE (may happen once) ... but it wouldn't happen again. I'm mostly shocked that this kid did it more than once?!?!? Sure, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt the first time around... but someone missed the bus to have this sort of thing happen more than once! :
I am really getting quite offended by your comments. I wish this thread would be closed at this point.

I frankly don't think you are getting it, I've tried to express that I see where you are coming from as a parent of one single child. I assure you I haven't missed the bus. I hope in a few years if you ever have a situation with your child that someone does not talk so condescending and judgemental to you.

I will definitely think twice before ever asking a very specific parenting question in regards to my own children in this forum again.
post #97 of 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoesmummy
Those hornets (and I've been in a similar situation) could *seriously* harm my child.
yeah, you're probably right. My kids and I all got used to it being there, and have not had an incident...
post #98 of 256
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joesmom
I feel bad for the OP- like she is going to be watching every move this little boy makes- waiting for the next shoe to drop...

I do agree that sometimes when a kid hurts animals it is because of problems at home, or due to deep seated emotional issues- but sometimes, it is just because the kid does not fully "get" what he is doing.
I don't think my child killed a frog because of problems at home or deep seated emotional issues. As I said, he is micromanaged enough in other areas, probably when he really shouldn't be and I am not going to do anymore in that area than I have been.
post #99 of 256
never mind
post #100 of 256
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven67
OTF...why do you run over so many frogs?? I really don't understand that statement. I have frogs, squirells, birds, worms, snakes in my driveway, and I check before pulling out/in, to make sure nothing is in the way. The times I have run over roadkill (already dead) I feel kind of nauseous and sad. I think seeing your words about the frogs that you run over, and how you never care or give it a thought...puts this in a whole different light. It makes much more sense now. If you don't care at all when you run over a frog, why don't you want your son doing the same thing? I'm sure it's going to make it all the more difficult for you son to learn empathy for animals when there are so many exceptions around him.
I can't believe you just asked this. Like I am purposely mowing frogs over for entertainment. LMAO.
I live in an area that is near watershed and wetland. Frogs are everywhere. Tree frogs, hundreds of them are on our house each nice, other species of frogs and toads are out everywhere -- sidewalks, roads, driveways. Sorry, I am not going to be sweeping off my 2-3000 square feet of driveway everytime I go out of the house to use the car to spare frogs, crickets, worms or other things like that. So to me its unintentional killing. My son however did it with thought in mind, whether that be out of curiousity, etc. I want to add again, I don't see frogs the same way some of you do -- I definitely do not put them in the same bracket of birds, cats, or dogs.
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