Tension at the doctor's office - Page 3

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by Saudades

I think I'd find it odd if my doctor didn't make a little "small talk" with my daughter and maybe even some conversation with me. I think it shows an interest in us as more than just lab rats.

I don't mind small talk really. I mean in the past I have discussed the weather, the high gas prices, and even shoes with my doctor but this was more like questioning my parenting/our lifestyle.

We do live in a culture, probably a world, that values reading and does not value video games, so your doctor's response seems pretty mild to me.

I totally agree about the culture, and I do realize that the way my family lives is often seen as very "out there" for a variety of reasons. I don't care if he agrees with me on these things, I care that he respect our right to live as we wish. He can share his info on reading, soda drinking, or screen time moderation but after I tell him that we are comfortable with how things are regarding all of that I think he should let it go. It will be interesting to see what happens next time...depending on when we see him again.

[guest^]

Greaseball- you are so right that not everyone has a choice of doctors. THat super sucks to me!!

Healthcare is such big business-but we are the ones that are really in control.I interview any doc that might lay a hand on my family. I let them know up front, that this is a business relationship, and that I do the hiring and firing.

That said, I think peds are super vigilant about the child as a whole- to a fault. Our old ped was okay that we didn't vax ds-until he passed 1 yo....then I started to get lots of inquiries about when we would,etc. Flag 1. Then, she would ask dd all sorts of questions when she knew we were HSing her for K-like what's her last name,does she know her address & phone #, dh's work #,.....can she count to 100, write her name...BLAK!!!!!!!

So i fired her. Though I must say that dd was furious with me when I switched to a male doc. I may consider taking dd-not ds-back to her when dd is closer to puberty. I dunno.

I then hired a general doc-finished with peds. And get this....he and his wife HOMESCHOOL!!! I know his wife as they are in our HSing group. She BF her dc till they were preschool age, and don't vax. He is conservative on anti-b's, and understands the stressors in our familiy's life.

I see another doc in the same praqctice-his dc are older and not in the HSing loop, and I feel much better going to him-I think they both understand-w/o anything being said.LOL!

FWIW- if you're commited to seeing this guy, I would maybe provide some info his way about UNs. And I think he was right otinquire about the juice/soda thing-in fact- that may tell you that he knows a *tiny* thing or two about the affects of nutrition.

mp

[UUMom]

Your Dr. may decide for himself to learn about unschooling. (Crossing my fingers for you) Since the odds are against this, it's why I asked if he was open for info in my first post. If you think he is , I' d send him some.

My HCP is very supportive of our 'lifestyle', and think my forwarding info has had something to do with that. But maybe not. Yet, i still shared stuff w/ her, and will continue to do so.

You can wait until next time, but you are also trusting that he gives a damn. He may, or he may not. I think it's very important to share what we know with the people who do we trust w/ certain health care issues re our children.

I'd email him some articles, or send some cool stuff in the mail. At least you would have a clue to his attitude.

We are all a little 'out there' as MDC parents, and I am not sure it's fair to let the ignorant wander....I've always had a lot of luck sharing what I know with my HCP. I am all about respect and trust. If you think your pracitce can handle it, send them info.

It's totally up to you--- and I know it can feel scary-- but it might be that your Dr apppreciates the info. I know mine has. Good luck!

[mamalisa]

Unschoolnma, I read your posts with such interest. You have such confidence in how you are raising your children and guiding them in their learning. I find your view of parenting totally refreshing. But honestly, the first few times I noticed your posts, I thought, "how bizarre". Your way of life as a parent is so different from the regimented, Catholic school, rule filled life I lived as a child. It really took me some time to understand where you come from, so maybe that was where the dr was coming from?

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by mamalisa

Unschoolnma, I read your posts with such interest. You have such confidence in how you are raising your children and guiding them in their learning. I find your view of parenting totally refreshing. But honestly, the first few times I noticed your posts, I thought, "how bizarre". Your way of life as a parent is so different from the regimented, Catholic school, rule filled life I lived as a child. It really took me some time to understand where you come from, so maybe that was where the dr was coming from?

What a nice thing to hear ty, really I can totally understand how odd it must seem to some people, so yea you are probably dead on as to where he was coming from. I was really caught off guard in this case, and I think that is what made me all : about it. In some situations I can sort of sense or anticipate that someone will question etc.

I hope that he was coming from a place of genuine concern, and that after me stating more about our lifestyle, things will feel less adversarial. Thanks for the kinds words. Thanks for all the responses thus far everyone!

[UUMom]

Oh, I think he was certainly quizzing you and not just making small talk about the reading. That's why I wondered in my first post if he was worth educating. Do you think he is?

[moominmamma]

I'm a family doc and I agree that the AAP's tips on 'monitoring homeschooling' are appalling. I'm not a pediatrician, and I live in Canada, so I'd never seen them before. They're awful.

But I also think it's incredibly simplistic, and probably rather short-sighted, to expect a doctor to concern himself only with the realm of the physical. That's to deny that there's a mind/body connection, and to ignore the influence of lifestyle and diet on health.

Among other things, pediatricians are charged with monitoring children's development. The famous Denver Developmental Scale from birth to 3 covers four broad areas: social, gross motor, fine motor and language. Clearly some of these are not "physical", but it is widely accepted that they're within the scope of pediatrics. Would it be inappropriate to ask one of the items on the DDS, whether your baby reaches for a toy if it's out of reach? Would that be a judgement on your parenting, in that it's designed to evaluate whether your baby has access to toys? Nope, it's just a somewhat simplistic question to help figure out whether your child's fine-motor development is falling within the normal range.

It is easy to misconstrue questions asked in good faith as judgements on parenting choices, especially if they're coming from the context of a different set of assumptions on childrearing. For instance:

"What is his bedtime?"

... is likely the first half of a question designed to figure out how much sleep your child is getting and to relate that to issues of physical and mental energy and general health. If an 8yo is going to bed at 7 pm and getting up at 7:30 am under protest, the pediatrician would be led to wonder why the child is needing so much sleep, and that would raise a bunch more questions about physical activity and other indicators of fatigue (like the loss of ability to concentrate on activities like reading, reluctance to participate in physical chores, loss of interest in and resistance to soccer practices, etc.)

If you assume that because the doctor assumes your child has a fixed, parent-led bedtime, that this is an attempt to judge your parenting ability, and answer

"He goes to bed whenever he wants!"

the doctor is not getting the information he was searching for.

The questions and answers about juice and soda that were described in the original post strike me as similar. You assumed the doc was setting out to judge your parenting and as a result didn't give him the information he wanted. He asked how much juice and soda your child drinks and you didn't tell him. Studies have shown that children who get a large proportion of their caloric intake in the form of simple sugars are at a much higher risk of obesity. Hypothyroidism is also correlated with obesity. Presumably the doctor wanted to know in order to inform and predict.

It sounds to me like your pediatrician is a health care provider, while you want a sick care provider. I'm surprised, because most of the unschoolers I know appreciate a doctor who is holistic in his orientation to health, who does not take physical issues out of their human context, who instead wants to understand the perspective and meaning of physical issues to the patient, who wants to understand whether diet and lifestyle are playing a role in maintaining or undermining health.

My guess is that because your pediatrician does have that holistic orientation that he's one of the 'good guys'. Although he may wrongly assume that all kids have their bedtimes and soda quotas set by their parents, he is probably worth educating out of those assumptions. He may not be an authority figure attempting to judge your parenting; he may genuinely be interested in understanding you and your family and the context that your ds's health fits into so as to provide better the sort of care that you need and want. I think the more gracious answer to the juice/soda question would have been something like:

"I can't say for sure, because my approach is to offer healthy choices and healthy models, not to set fixed limits. I would guess that on average he drinks maybe 2 or 3 glasses of juice or soda a day. Does that sound about right, ds?"

Miranda

[lilyka]

thank you for weighing in Miranda. I was intresting to hear things from your side. you sound similar to our Dr. I guess despite my Dr. asking question that sound questionable or beyond his scope and even when he asks us for the zillionth time if we wil be getting vacines today (never pushy) that it is only because he really does care about the health and well being of his patients andn ot because he is lokoing to turn us in . If i ever think he is being to prying or pushy or whatever I simply ask him "what do you hope to learn from that question?" he has always been more than wiling to share and sometimes very happy that someone cares enough to ask. And I have been surpruised at his reasons for askin

once I even answered and asked "what would you tell me if I had answered the other way?" he just laughed and gave me an speal about things to be cautious of in those situations. usualy his questions do have a mission. some he just asks out of habit and he admits that and I understand that. he has a zillion patients. everyone wants him to be thier Dr.

So anyway thanks for weighing in.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Oh, I think he was certainly quizzing you and not just making small talk about the reading. That's why I wondered in my first post if he was worth educating. Do you think he is?

Well maybe. It seemed like he had a view on homeschooling already. When we said we were homeschoolers he said "Yea, I know but..." or something similiar. It was the tone more than anything really. Condescending. The more he sees us the more he will be filled in on unschooling lol.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

My guess is that because your pediatrician does have that holistic orientation that he's one of the 'good guys'. Although he may wrongly assume that all kids have their bedtimes and soda quotas set by their parents, he is probably worth educating out of those assumptions. He may not be an authority figure attempting to judge your parenting; he may genuinely be interested in understanding you and your family and the context that your ds's health fits into so as to provide better the sort of care that you need and want. I think the more gracious answer to the juice/soda question would have been something like:

"I can't say for sure, because my approach is to offer healthy choices and healthy models, not to set fixed limits. I would guess that on average he drinks maybe 2 or 3 glasses of juice or soda a day. Does that sound about right, ds?"

Miranda

Thanks for responding!

I do think that because I was rather caught off guard I was more on the defense. The tone he used was more of a problem for me. How we say things matters I think, and I think we tend to get back what we give. His tone was preachy, and I reacted with a defensive tone that must have said "back off". It certainly could have gone better on both ends I think. Live and learn lol.

Another thing is that we weren't coming from a perspective of "help us, we are sick and need info" but more of a "We just need to check this one thing and carry on." And that after we answered his questions (other than the drink question that admittedly I did not give a clear answer on... it would have to be an vague estimate at best anyway) the answers did not seem to be up to his approval ...I do not need his approval, KWIM? I think the statement that bothered me the most was about PS2 playing (Saying that "PS2 isn't school though, right?") Why on earth is that related to anything he and I would need to discuss?

Anyway, still sorting through all of this. All the comments are helpful in doing so

[Arwyn]

Devil's advocate for a second: maybe with the "PS2 isn't school though, right?" thing he was trying to figure out whether your son was playing educational games - and thus should be counted as "school time".

I also want to second pretty much everything Miranda said. Drs may not always chose the best, least offensive ways of checking, but it is part of their general job to screen physical, mental, and emotional health. Although I don't think that should be called a "holistic" orientation. My mom (a family practice MD) definitely does all that, and firmly believes in mind/body/spirit connections, but she is most definitely not what I would consider holistic in her approach to medicine. She calls herself "humanistic," and I agree. Much better than a thoroughly technocratic approach, but still not what should be called holistic.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Kylix

I think in order to avoid such a situation next time, I would respond with "I'm not sure what this has to do with ds' thyroid/blood test. We are here to talk about that and not PS2/sodas/school" if the doctor started in on the 20 questions again. Really, it is none of his business and not in the scope of his expertise.

Kylix

ITA

[Wilhemina]

I guess *I* would prefer a sick care pediatrician and not one "charged" with monitoring my child's "development." The choices and models my pediatrician deems healthy seem to fall in a very narrow AAP-restricted mainstream range. I feel like my dh and I are "charged" with monitoring their development and hire health care providers (and other professionals) to assist in that on an ad hoc basis.

I also have serious doubts about my ped's knowledge of the "mind-body connection." When she asked how much cow's milk my dd drank at age 2, I answered "none - she still breastfeeds and drinks some organic soymilk. She does enjoy yogurt and cheese, though." Knowing we are vegetarian, she said, "Well we need to be sure she gets enough animal protein. I know, give her ice cream - she won't turn her nose up at that." (Understand that her charted growth and development were on-target, there was no specific concern about her health.)

That being said, what you said, Miranda, makes sense. I will try to be more open in my dialog with my pediatrician and less defense. After these 6.5 years I *should* know that diplomacy is not her strong suit. However, it is hard when I know from my experience with her that my openness is not reciprocated. (You should have heard what she said about birthing #2 in the water at a free standing birth center attended by a CNM - I fear if she known my plans before hand she might have called some child protection authority. Even holding my very healthy and happy infant nursling in her hand, who had received two thorough exams from qualified nurses prior to her own examination at @ 7 days, she considered sending us to the hospital for a "work up." There was NO specific concern, other than her birth had not been hospitalized.)


ETA: Yikes! I wrote more than I meant to. Hope I'm not hijacking your thread, UnschoolnMa

[Sasha_girl]

Originally Posted by laralou

It isn't just unschooling, it is respecting children as people capable of making their own decisions.

Exactly! I've spent my morning chewing on some answers I wished I'd given at a family gathering yesterday when homeschooling was brought up. Laralou's remark is what I kept coming back to.

Why is it that my parenting decisions are taken as an insult to someone elses? I don't vax, they do, so they're defensive about their reasons for vaccinating. I breastfeed, they don't, so they're defensive about why breastfeeding didn't work out for them. We homeschool, they don't, so I must be completely anti-public school (which, you know, I actually am, although I keep those opinions on appropriate boards) and must be educated about how much my children are missing out by learning outside of ps.

It really bothers me when something becomes the "norm" to the point that anything else is considered crazy, yet nobody ever wonders exactly why the norm is what it is. Ask them about the history of public schooling and they look at you blankly. That's just how it's done, you know?

I'm sorry to rant on your thread, Unschooln. I think that, with homeschooling being as fast-growing as it is, your doctor should at least be a little knowledgable in the different styles.

[Sasha_girl]

Originally Posted by laralou

She inspires me in the confidence she has in her children to turn out great on their own. I am terrified that I am making huge mistakes by doing or not doing all kinds of things. I get worried that when I let him play unrestricted, ds will turn into a video game freak like some guys I know who still live with their mothers at 35 and can't keep a relationship or a job because all they really want to do is play video games. But I also worry that if I limit them, they will become forbidden fruit. Not to hijack your thread, UnschoolnMa. It just hit a nerve because I get a lot of comments about how much ds plays and they make me nervous because I worry they are right.

ITA! My kids don't play video games but I have those same clouds of self-doubt in my mind about different stuff. It's so nice to come here and be inspired.

[Sasha_girl]

I'm really serial posting here, so I apologize. I've just had several personal epiphenies on this thread.

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I really really really do not consider it my doctor's job to know about my education, social life, and interests. Nor her business. I mean, just on a friendly level I might enjoy discussing myself with her like I would with anyone else, but quite honestly if my doctor were to ask me (in the absence of associated problems that she could offer medical solutions for) how I'm getting along with my husband, how many friends I have, what I do on Saturday nights, what my hobbies are, what I learned today, etc., I would be really taken aback. And I *really* don't consider my doctor an expert on education. I think if I asked my doctor what she thought about my son's education, she'd look at me funny. At least I hope she would. I mean, it's just not her job. She's trained to diagnose and treat illness and injury, why would I assume she should be able to advise me on anything else? Why would I want her to anyway? I'm sorry, that is just a very foreign concept to me.

I have never thought of it this way. What an awesome point.

[Sasha_girl]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

I don't care if he agrees with me on these things, I care that he respect our right to live as we wish. He can share his info on reading, soda drinking, or screen time moderation but after I tell him that we are comfortable with how things are regarding all of that I think he should let it go.

I agree. I think what bothers me is the insinuation that a homeschooling parent makes all of these arbritrary decisions, just a kind of fart in the whirlwind, kwim? :LOL The alternative parents I've been lucky enough to "know", either IRL or online, are some of the most informed people I've ever seen.

It just bugs me that if you do the mainstream stuff you're informed; you know, those little CDC vax sheets they hand out, or because you went to public school, or whatever; but if you choose to do non-mainstream stuff it's because you don't know any better.

Can you tell I"m feeling a little outnumbered IRL? :LOL

[laralou]

Originally Posted by Wilhemina

I guess *I* would prefer a sick care pediatrician and not one "charged" with monitoring my child's "development." The choices and models my pediatrician deems healthy seem to fall in a very narrow AAP-restricted mainstream range. I feel like my dh and I are "charged" with monitoring their development and hire health care providers (and other professionals) to assist in that on an ad hoc basis.

I agree with this. And I pick doctors who respect me as being in charge.

I had my cancer misdiagnosed 3 times by 3 different doctors so I am quick to inform that I am in charge of my health and the health of my children.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by Sasha_girl

Can you tell I"m feeling a little outnumbered IRL? :LOL

I totally understand how that feels :LOL

Thanks everyone! I am so glad I posted this thread, and so grateful to everyone who is posting. I've vented, thought, vented, learned stuff, and still am. Good stuff man...