Something's gotta give with the "gay" signatures - Page 4

[Victorian]

I don't think that any member of an oppressed group should have to watch what she says because she should be worried about offending a member of the oppressing group because that person is someone she needs as an ally. I really, really hope that isn't what you were saying, because that was the only relevance I could find to this situation from your anecdote.

no, you misunderstood my point. They were asking for us to be understanding and stand on their side when a very unfair law was in the works. But they were unwilling to do the same to others. I do agree that they should not have to do something for "hetro-points" or something, but IMO they were shooting themselves in the foot. I realize that the dominate culture has a lot of advantages over the non-dominate culture so please don't try to twist my words in that way. But I also think that members of the non-dominate culture should be willing to see that not ALL of the members of the other group are against them, in fact some are very much working to make it better. When the news was on showing gay partners getting married in Multnomah County, I called my dd into the room and told her with tears in my eyes that she should remember this day because something big and wonderful happened. When they decided to revoke the licenses, I cried. I can't count how many measures that I have votes against to insure rights for gay people. I have attended gay rights parades and signed this and that. I have even took a shift calling people to encourage them to vote pro-gay in the latest election. I realize here that I am a member of the "oppressing class" but I do try to look at things another way. I do agree with the above poster that a lot of us have been oppressed.

And to assume that I have never been oppressed, made fun of, the butt of jokes, an outsider, would be wrong. And for me to assume that I don't have an extreme amount of previledge based on my color and sexual preference would be wrong on my part.

But because I am hetro, I am the enemy? Maybe we need a bigger way of looking at the world.

And the reason that I choose the word "Attack" is because the OP did not just say that "some of the sigs" were offensive. She took one and labeled that mama as all sorts of things including homophobic and sexist. THAT IMO is attacking that mama.

V.

[Faerieshadow]

I have to say I empathize with Kincaid's OP. Yes, I have found all the gay sigs to be generally supportive... and I totally appreciate the effort a lot of you all out there put forth to show that support.

Maybe this is a bold thing for me to say... but I think perhaps it is the actual "claiming" of being a lesbian when you (general you, non specific) aren't that may be seen to invalidate those of us that are. I personally don't dwell on it but I do know several lesbians IRL who would be incensed to see someone try to portray themselves as one falsely, because they would see it as making a mockery of who they are, and they would be very validated in those feelings, as was Kincaid.

[TiredX2]

I'd also like to point out that there is a good chance the people "you" are thinking of (with offensive and/or confusing sigs) will never see this conversation.

So, go ahead... drop a PM

[wasabi]

Originally Posted by Viola

I see Kincaid's point too and agree with her. My personal feeling is that this would never have gotten this far if it were a race issue. We've had problems just having discussions about issues of privilege in the past and things got really heated.

I do recognize that the sigs are basically meant to be supportive and some members are now feeling hurt because they feel like that support is being rejected. But arguments about how you shouldn't feel offended because this is meant to support you never get us anywhere, as others have intimated.

I also see nothing wrong with Kincaid's original post and didn't think she was at all defensive until there were responses telling her she needed to lighten up. As someone not involved in this situation at all it seems mainly that those who know the not gay but have gay siggies aren't offended because they know those women and their intentions but others clearly are offended and that should be respected I think.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by Victorian

And the reason that I choose the word "Attack" is because the OP did not just say that "some of the sigs" were offensive. She took one and labeled that mama as all sorts of things including homophobic and sexist. THAT IMO is attacking that mama.

I went back to read the OP and I think you didn't read very closely. the OP attacks the signature as heterosexist, homophobic and annoying. (Which is an evaluation of the signature, not the mom.) The mom took umbrage. But that doesn't mean the OP attacked her, it didn't mention her by name. this I believe fulfills the UA protocol.

[mama ganoush]

i too see the op's point, and initially, before i heard the story behind them, i felt that way too.

now they remind me of that movie In or Out starring Kevin Kline as a gay high school teacher. There's that scene at the end where he is being denied his
Teacher of the Year award, and everyone in the audience starts showing their support by standing up and yelling "hey, i'm gay too", in this really small, hetero community.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by Victorian

no, you misunderstood my point. They were asking for us to be understanding and stand on their side when a very unfair law was in the works. But they were unwilling to do the same to others.

I can definitely see why the juxtaposition of bumper stickers would bother you. I would have been offended by the stickers asking for acceptance while having a sticker that was taking a shot at me. And maybe the point is to offend me and give me a "taste of my own medicine" but a lot of assumptions are being made. Or maybe they were just zero population growth people and it was coincidental.

[Faerieshadow]

Originally Posted by TiredX2

I'd also like to point out that there is a good chance the people "you" are thinking of (with offensive and/or confusing sigs) will never see this conversation.

So, go ahead... drop a PM

I'm not sure if this was addressed to me or not.. but I'll answer anyway. :LOL

Just want to clarify that I said I didn't say *I* was upset over anything, just that I understand Kincaid's point of view as being a valid one.

[merpk]

Okay. Read the thread.

I'd changed my sig as a sign of support. Gay/lesbian friends and family members is not the same as being so myself. And I'm not.

Not wanting to make anyone uncomfortable. Not like anyone understood my sig change anyway :LOL (okay, except for you, kama )

So am stating my support clearly and unambiguously ... and changing my sig back.

[merpk]

Oh, and any NY'ers reading this thread, see this thread. Be there or be square.



(trying to get the word out any way I can )

[darsmama]

I always thought the "Thank you for not breeding" stickers were tongue in cheeky like the "People who listen to country music shouldn't breed" etc.

Oops

[darsmama]

I never changed my signature, but I too support everyone

You all have taught me a lot and made me question things I never have!

[Victorian]

O/T

Hi Katie!! When are you comin' up to PDX for coffee?

V.

[kama'aina mama]

I will change my sig if it offends anyone. Please let me know.

Edit to add: Nevermind. If there is a chance it gives offense (which there is, and I have been made aware of it..) I will change it. Thank you for speaking up. If I offended anyone I am sorry.

[Kincaid]

I did not intend to attack anyone. I just said if the signatures are supposed to be "supportive" - I was not finding some of them to be.
If the intent was instead to be funny, sarcastic, witty, provoking, or in-your-face... then some of them were! But supportive of gay folks? Not so sure on all of them.

And when I said I don't find some of them "supportive" I felt really attacked. Told I did not have a sense of humor. That everyone is oppressed and for me to get over it. Again, this is contrary to what people were saying the signatures were for.

I definately did not want to belittle or attack anyone. I have said a couple of times I want us to communicate, listen, and understand each other. The people defending their "support" signatures have in turn made some smarmy remarks rather than try to really talk it through.

And heavens, I definately did not mean to minimize in any way the experiences of bisexuals or anything like that. Gosh! Me saying I find something homophobic should not mean anything against bisexuals.

I should not have to be apologizing my a$$ off to simply say I found something offensive to my identity. This is not about biisexuals or married folks or "fat people"! It is only about me not feeling supported by some of the "support" signatures. If they were meant for support, and some of us don't feel them that way, then why argue it you know?

[Mothra]

If I was walking through the mall and saw a woman wearing a wedding ring and holding hands with a man who was also wearing a wedding ring and the woman was wearing a tshirt that said, "I'm a lesbian and my husband is too", I'd think all of those things about that woman. We always want to give people the benefit of the doubt and think that they are NOT racist, classist, homophobic, sexist, etc. We do this at the expense of those who are oppressed. We leave it up to them to explain how they are being oppressed and offer extensive evidence. We don't believe them.

I didn't see anywhere that Kincaid said that you check your sexuality at the door when you get married. What I saw her say is that when a woman is partnered with a man, even if she is bisexual, she will benefit from heterosexual priviledge. Then I saw paquerette deny that heterosexual priviledge even exists. If that isn't oppressive, I don't know what is.

[willowsmom]

I'm willing to put money on the fact that the signatures are a result of a mixture of things: wanting to be supportive but not knowing what to say and the desire to be witty.

I agree with TiredX2...if you have a problem with PARTICULAR signatures and not the whole shabang...pm that person and talk it out. Your thoughts and feelings on this matter are valid and understandable...

And like Pynki said...not all people in "hetero" marriages are living the life of all "hetero" people. I should know...I'm ALSO a bi woman in a hetero marriage. Given the chance again...I wouldn't be married to a man and would be a lesbian. What I'm saying is...you don't know everyone's specific story. And unless you ask...you'll never know. So instead of making sweeping generalizations (not that *you* were...but it has been known to happen at MDC)...grab a cup of tea or coffee or whatever and PM the person...that's what it's there for. Meet someone and perhaps you can learn something from each other. Best case scenario of course.

Peace,
Jenn


ETA: I didn't think you were attacking either...Your feelings are valid and welcome.

[Oh the Irony]

kincaid, i know you put much thought into discussing this.

i did not read your post as an attack. you are speaking your truth.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

I have to say, that when I started reading this thread, I was a little bit scared. It seemed to be the begining of a war on MDC, but am so pleasantly surprised to see the insightful discussion going on. I know that this has really opened my eyes to think long and hard about what things I say could be hurtful even if said in a joking way. I was sincerely thinking of adding gay support to my sig, in support of the lesbian mamas here, and also with regard to my support for my friend who recently "came out of the closet" so to speak. But I think that I will take more time before I do to make sure that it is thoughtful and supportive, and not about jumping on the bandwagon. I have ot say that it did seem like the "cool" thing to do when I started seeing all the gay sigs. : , but I realize that it is a much more serious thing than that. As usual, you MDC mamas blow me away with the depth and inteligence with which you discuss such important issues.

[shishkeberry]

i'm another who would appreciate a PM if my sig is offensive. i really hope it's not, because i sure didn't intend it to be :