Tantrums worldwide? - Page 2

[Dechen]

Teenagers are crazy everywhere.

I bet toddlers are too.

Certain life stages are more tumultuous than others.

[Marsupialmom]

I think any child/person stressed out can throw tantrums. One of my dad’s friend brought a Vietnamese family over this guy talks about how the child cried for a month.

[MamaE]

Originally Posted by meemee

i feel one of the worst things that progress has created is the nuclear family. children are not meant to be raised alone. not even the shy child, the loner child.
...
for children an extended family is great. for adults it is really hard. too much politics. for adults a nuclear family works out better. but for young children and older people - an extended family is irreplaceable. it honestly takes a village to raise a child.

ITA with this and I have thought a lot about this as well. I believe the invention of the nuclear family and, in particular, in this country, the geographical distance between the nuclear family and the extended family is the reason why many women choose not to practice Attachment Parenting. I don't condone CIO in any way, but when they are alone all day long with no help, I think many women can't see another way at night - they simply have nothing left to give (or feel they have nothing, anyway). I know CIO is mainstream too and some are just doing it because that's what everyone else is doing, but I still think parenting styles evolved out of so-called self preservation. When you have only 2 hands, what's a girl to do? That said, DH and I both live far from our families. We are all alone in this town, and I AP - night and day. But, I admit, sometimes I find myself totally exhausted and drained and just yearning for the type of culture where the women would congregate all day long and just share childcare. Where if my toddler needed something, there were 20 other hands to say "here you go, sweetie." I also think that in this type of culture, women would teach other women how to mother, by example. We don't have that here. You go home from the hospital and you're on your own. You can either parent the way your parents did, the way (you think) your friends do, or find your own way (that's what I ended up doing - amen for MDC!!!!).

But, I digress. I know someone else mentioned Leidloff's Continuum Concept and that is exactly what I thought of when I saw the OP. I wondered if this idea that children don't tantrum in other cultures came from that book? Personally, I liked the book, but I don't consider it to be scientific in any way. It's an anecdote and has to be taken as such. Leidloff claims that the Yequana (I think?) children don't tantrum or exhibit the normal toddlerisms that American kids do. OK, maybe so, but one culture, one woman's observations? Maybe that culture is an anomaly. Maybe they all possess the "laid back" gene. Who knows? Or, maybe it's because childcare is shared there, probably all day (and night) long. I can't imagine there are many cultures like that left. The nuclear family has become the norm and so, I would guess tantrums are the norm as well.

I also agree that tantrums are an aspect of temperament. I think most moms would be horrified to be told that their child tantrums because of something they are doing or not doing in raising them. Just the number of posts about tantrums I see in the GD forum from AP moms who presumably bend over backwards to meet their children's needs tells me that they are part and parcel of toddlerhood - and I would think that's true the world over.

Interesting topic!!

[Dal]

I wonder if we all mean roughly the same thing by the word "tantrum." It just seems so sad and strange to me that it is normal for someone to be prone to hysterical wailing, kicking, thrashing, screaming and the like -- often several times each day. Something just seems wrong with this. It just seems so extreme to me. Maybe once in a rare while, but for this to happen frequently? Over minor upsets even? Something just seems wrong there. That is my gut response. Perhaps it will change as I live and learn.

I have absolutely no problem with healthy emotions or with crying. I don't try to stifle Simon's cries, though I do try to prevent unnecessary crying and melt-downs. I guess that's what I'm getting at. Are tantrums the result of too much built up stress and an environment that is lacking something important for the child (which I would guess are things such as variety, space, nature, freedom to explore)? I know that if Simon is too tired, he'll get upset over something that wouldn't normally phase him. So I'm wondering if tantrums are like this, but on a grander scale.

In my case, I don't want the help of my extended family. They are mainstream; I don't trust that they would treat Simon with the respect that he deserves or model healthy relationships and ways of being to him.

I really don't want to offend anyone with these thoughts and feel very badly that I have done this. I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to avoid this -- at least for the most part -- as we'll soon be entering the time that it seems to begin (if we haven't already).

We really want to form our own group of friends who are like family (only chosen!) and help to make things as ideal for us as possible. We're planning to do this somewhere in B.C. starting sometime within a year or so!

I have heard about the Continuum Concept ideas -- in brief -- and will spend more time looking into them -- whenever I manage to find the time.

[Flor]

Interesting topic. I have to agree that "more hands" would reduce tantrums. I don't take ds places by myself at this age. I take my poor mom with me everywhere if I have to get something done otherwise I feel like I am setting up ds for a tantrum. I know he doesn't understand about standing in line or having to check the prices before I chose an object. We were in line at a store the other day, and he wanted to go look at something. I told him I had to pay, so he took the item from me, walked over to an empty cash register and slapped it down on the counter :LOL . He sorta got it that I had to give it to someone at the counter. The fact that there was no one there didn't faze him. soon he was ready for tantrum, if my mom or dh had been there, they'd have walked around with him. Those tantrums were he is frustrated with his own skills, those are harder to avoid.
I have lived in Mexico and I lived with a toddler (of course, not ALL toddlers) but he seemed to have more free range of the world than a lot of toddlers I know. He wasn't expected to sit still and be nice. He was allowed to run in the stores (with the other tots it seemed) and hide in the racks. It seemed more dangerous to me(for example, being allowed to climb out of his car seat when he felt like it), but he happily explored.

[Mothra]

The main problem I have with much of the writing about attachment parenting is that it ignores entire cultures and focuses on very specific, narrow aspects of often unnamed cultures. I do not believe it is possible to isolate one behavior and say that this behavior does or does not occur in a particular culture because of x, y, or maybe z.

Babies in Romanian orphanages do not cry. What are they doing right so that the babies don't cry? Well, the babies are never picked up and held, so they have learned that crying doesn't get them anything and they don't bother. That is an extreme example, but I use it to illustrate that you can find whatever it is that you are looking for.

Instead of looking to "other cultures" to find ways to deal with tantrums or eliminate them altogether, I think we're better served to look at our own culture and work with what we have.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by meemee

i feel one of the worst things that progress has created is the nuclear family. children are not meant to be raised alone. .

That is just soo true. They are not meant to be raised alone. Also, there should not be a choice between working - and not seeing your children the entire whole day - or being at home caring for them. These things blend in very naturally in other cultures.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by Mothra

Instead of looking to "other cultures" to find ways to deal with tantrums or eliminate them altogether, I think we're better served to look at our own culture and work with what we have.

Ok. But what do we see except inborn personality?
Let's take this continent. Do Mexican toddlers really not freak out so badly so often?
Has our justified preoccupation with saftey created all these problems?

[meemee]

Originally Posted by Mothra

The main problem I have with much of the writing about attachment parenting is that it ignores entire cultures and focuses on very specific, narrow aspects of often unnamed cultures. I do not believe it is possible to isolate one behavior and say that this behavior does or does not occur in a particular culture because of x, y, or maybe z.

Instead of looking to "other cultures" to find ways to deal with tantrums or eliminate them altogether, I think we're better served to look at our own culture and work with what we have.

i do agree one shouldnt focus on just one narrow aspect and only look at that. when looking at another culture and trying to find out why their children dont tantrum u really need to look at the whole parenting.

i think one of the saddest development in this country IS the ignoring of other culture. we just refuse to learn from other cultures. with their experience. in totality. when one migrates to this country they are expected to leave their ideals and practises behind and adopt what is here. one never tries to learn hey why is it that somethings works for them but doesnt work for us. and i am not just talking about tantrums or parenting styles but education, personal ethiic and anything else. i remember when columbine happened no one really questioned why - not just maninstream media but the general public too. u wouldnt hear why are our children doing this at office or college breakrooms. except the minority no one really said why doesnt canada have as many violent situations in schools like we do. i digress here.

one of the sad things i notice in this country is that there are soooo many lonely people. there are singles and families who long for community. due to circumstances we tend to eye strangers as bad and then have them prove they are good. i mean there is a community here. if u r away from ur extended families there are others who would be willing to help. there are others who crave a 'family'. i wish there was a way to make them come together.

u know i also find it funny when we criticise another culture and yet indirectly adopt thier methods. for instance arranged marriage. we baulk at the thought yet we have our own internet dating services. the only difference is that parents choose the person based on their lifestyle and their children (doesnt always work) while here the computer makes that judgement call based on ones answers (doesnt always work either).

DAL does make a good point about the definition of 'tantrum'. it probably is true we make a big deal out of it whilst other cultures just look at it as part of the child's growth. i mean here we talk and discuss so much about cosleeping. in other cultures no one even sees any reason to discuss that or even question it.

dal usually the good thing about extended familiies is that it kinda plays the role of a cousellor. so if u have issues with how say ur parents deal with discipline some other family member will step in and tell ur parents to back off. if for instance ur child does not match ur personality and u have no clue how to deal with a certain behaviour - say the first lies - someone will step in and help. plus i feel what makes a huge difference is the attitude change a child brings. in most asian cultures a child strengthens the family bond - they bring families close together. whereas here it mostly tears them apart. maybe i am wrong to feel this way but i find their culture values children more htan we do here. the moment a child appears the world of the adult changes their focus from me to the child. there are exceptions of course. personally in most ancient cultures i find people try harder to make things work than they do here in my limited experience.

well anyways i do think we need to focus on other cultures and figure out what makes certain things work for them that we are struggling with. and i do agree we need to focus on the whole picture and then look at the details - at the specifics. rather than focusing on the specifics and trying to find reasons to fit in the answers.

[Eilleen]

Thank you for your posts Meemee. I found them insightful.

OT- Just a point about The Continuum Concept - Leidloff was not an anthropologist (she was/is a psychotherapist). I actually thought she did a great disservice to the Yequana by romanticising their culture. Nevertheless, her ideas are really thought-provoking and I happen to agree with her ideas.

Back to the topic - I also think that children are inherently social beings and tend to respond to our expectations (so much of it stated in very unclear terms). Unfortunately, so much of of our expectations seem to be stated in negative ways - ie "don't do that, you WILL fall"; "don't touch that"; "put down that stick, you WILL hurt someone" etc - much of that seems to say that we EXPECT them to behave in a careless or negative way. So the normal frustrations of a toddler is compounded by this expectation that they will behave in a negative manner.

Not saying that this is the SOLE reason for tantrums - just saying that this might be one factor for the frequency and intensity for those tantrums.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by Dal

I wonder if we all mean roughly the same thing by the word "tantrum." It just seems so sad and strange to me that it is normal for someone to be prone to hysterical wailing, kicking, thrashing, screaming and the like -- often several times each day. Something just seems wrong with this. It just seems so extreme to me. Maybe once in a rare while, but for this to happen frequently? Over minor upsets even? Something just seems wrong there. That is my gut response.

I know you didn't intend to offend anyone, but that whole statement is proof that you aren't able to accept that some children just aren't like yours. You happen have a very mellow babe. Therefore, something *would* be wrong if *your* baby was having meltdowns, because they just aren't part of his everday temperament. My DD, OTOH, is *not* mellow. She is persistent, she is determined and she feels disappointment much more strongly than some babies. She isn't easily redirected and she doesn't forget about things 2 minutes later like some 12 month olds.

It's just like I said in my previous post - I have to hear this crap from both sides of the fence. On the one hand, I'm "too lenient" and I "let her have her way too much/hold her too much/should stop nursing her/stop sleeping with her....." and the list goes on. Then, from some AP families I hear that apparently I'm not spending *enough* time with her, not creating a friendly environment for her, not supporting her enough or whatever. Jesus, there is no answer to this. Accept it. I think the difference here isn't that children in other cultures never have meltdowns. The difference is that in other cultures, they aren't viewed as the horrible, awful thing deserving of punishment that most Americans view them as and the rest of them are embarrassed by. Therefore, no one makes a big deal out of it and it's over with just like that.

[IncaMama]

my family is from South America and i have spent a lot of time there with my younger cousins...and the main difference i see is in the attitude of the parents, not the behavior of the children. this is probably just in my family, and i can't generalize to the entire "culture" but they just don't care as much about their "things" that the kids want to play with. they want the remote? ok...they broke the remote? oops...we'll deal. they want to eat dirt? ok, just make sure he/she doesn't choke. there isn't a whole lot that they're really uptight about. they understand that kids are unpredictable, don't understand 'the rules' and will 'mess up' all the time and that's just what they're supposed to do. they don't want them to be independent, they don't expect them to adhere to a schedule, they never make them sleep alone, etc...

sure the kids cry. but honestly, tantrums tend to happen when the child's desires don't mesh with the parents' desires/expectations. i have found that in my family in south america, their expectations are just very very different and don't typically clash with their kids'.

[Mothra]

Ok. But what do we see except inborn personality?
Let's take this continent. Do Mexican toddlers really not freak out so badly so often?
Has our justified preoccupation with saftey created all these problems?

I don't think comparisons between children in Mexico and children in the United States, an odd comparison, in my opinion, would really tell us all that much about ourselves. Can you isolate the causes and the effects of these differences? Are you an anthropologist? I'm not.

I've tried to read The Contiuum Concept but haven't had any success. I found it to be racist and essentializing of the Yequana people. The "noble savage" strikes again.

Talk of how people raise their children in "other cultures" makes me uncomfortable. It feels racist to talk about other, often unnamed, cultures and how they raise they children without looking at the bigger picture to really understand how they work. I don't like the idea of taking what we need and just leaving the rest. It doesn't do anything to foster understanding of a different way of living and ignores the things that are going wrong in the culture being examined.

[mmaramba]

Slightly OT, but I want to test this out...

I'm sure what I realized the other day is neither profound nor original (it's almost certainly in one of those GD books I've yet to read), but is the following true?

Tantrums start out because the child is frustrated, etc. and can't express himself.

They only (or usually only) become "manipulative" when the parent (or society) makes them so, by responding "inappropriately"-- by giving the child the candy bar he was frustrated that he couldn't have, etc. If parents, et al. don't respond by giving the child things he/she is not supposed to have (or whatever), and instead respond by empathizing with the frustration-- basically viewing tantrums for what they are, not as attempts to manipulate-- then the kid eventually grows out of them. Yes? No?

But when the parent sees early tantrums as attempts to manipulate (or "get something from" the parent) and either digs in his/her heels (punishing the child for tantrums, etc.) or gives in to the child's "demands," then doesn't the parent "make" the tantrums about getting (or not getting) what the child wants?

I don't feel I'm being very articulate here... Basically, I am hypothesizing the following pattern:

1) Child tantrums out of frustration, not knowing or expecting that doing so will "get" him anything. Just tantruming because he can't handle frustration/his emotions.
2) Parent perceives child as trying to "manipulate" certain outcome.
3) Parent treats child accordingly, by punishing "manipulative" behavior (child gets significant attention-- perhaps feels powerful for causing major reaction), or by "rewarding" child with item or action that the child was frustrated about.
4) Child NOW learns that tantrums "get" him something significant. Beforehand, he tantrumed out of frustration-- NOW he may also tantrum partly because it "gets" him something...

Vs., perhaps:

1) As above.
2) Parent perceives child as frustrated, and empathizes. Attempts to help child understand emotions.
3) Child eventually acquires more language and emotional skills to handle frustrating situations. Tantrums "die off," FTMP.

Now, nothing is this cut and dried, but do you think this is true, as a general theory? Perhaps a part of our culture around parent-child power struggles?

I am dying to get some feedback on this from you wonderful ladies....

[ChasingPeace]

I haven't read all of the posts yet carefully, but I wanted to add something from my experience. My dh's family is Lebanese, and they spent most of their lives in Lebanon. My SIL used to watch a young girl (here in the US), and I remember being shocked at the way she reacted to the girl's behavior. The little girl was about 3, and was going through the "no" stage. My SIL would ask her to do something, and the girl would say "no," and my SIL would laugh. She wouldn't argue with her, she wouldn't force her, she would just laugh, and she might ask her again later. I was shocked. (this was before I had any exposure to GD). I asked her, why are you letting her be so disobedient? My SIL said, "she's still a baby." Of course, when it came to safety issues, etc., my SIL would not leave it at "no," but she definitely didn't she unimportant "no's" as a challenge to her authority. This is a long-winded way of saying that I think some cultures view "tantrums" and other "undesirable" behavior differently than we do. As for my dh's family, they don't see them as anything more than a developmental stage that the child will outgrow by continually expressing what expected behavior is.

Interesting topic.

[Flor]

I am extremely interested in looking at child rearing in other cultures. I t is interesting to me to see if things happen across cultures (so maybe it is inborn and I can't control) or if things happen because of the culture (then maybe I can change it). Maybe it would be racist for me to try to explain a culture to you that I have just read about and have little understand ing of but to compare American culture to the Mexican culture where I have lived and where my relatives are from, and where I find children's relationships with their parents to be different (better in some ways, worse in others), is endlessly fascinating to me.

[Plummeting]

mmaramba - I disagree that giving a child what they want when they're having a meltdown is always a bad idea. In my 1st post on this thread, I explained how my daughter "tantrumed" because she wanted the lid off the bottle I gave her and she couldn't get the lid off. She couldn't speak to tell me what she wanted, so she became extremely frustrated when she couldn't do it herself. Following the steps you gave, I would have simply empathized with her by telling her I knew she was angry about something. I would then have left it at that and waited for her to calm down. IMO, that actually plays into the whole mainstream manipulation theories. Basically, it's saying that by bothering to find out what was upsetting her and helping her get what she wanted, I was *teaching* her to manipulate me. I don't buy that. There is nothing wrong with doing a little problem solving to find out what is upsetting your child so much and help them if it's something they can have or do. There are enough "no's" in a child's life without adding to them just because they've screamed before you figured out what was wrong. KWIM? If she's having a meltdown because she can't have the knife out of the dishwasher, I won't give it to her. She has then learned she can't always have everything she wants. No need to refuse her *everything* she cries about, just becuase grandma says if I open that bottle for her she's learned that a tantrum gets her way. IMO, refusing them something they're really upset about just because they got upset is only teaching them that frustration/sadness/anger are "bad" and shouldn't be expressed.

[Mothra]

There is a huge difference between someone who is immersed in a culture different than the one they grew up in making observations and drawing conclusions and someone who reads some books or watches some tv shows doing the same. Personally, I've only visited Mexico a few times and can't comment on much about family life there. It becomes racist when a more mobile culture, such as the one in the US, moves into another culture via the media and presumes to make assumptions and draw conclusions about an entire culture based on limited observations and perspectives.

I don't think it is possible to look at any culture in terms of child rearing alone. How parents raise their children is secondary to many things-- the economy, family structure, and gender roles in the society just to name a few. Making changes to our way of life to model one aspect of our lives after another culture doesn't make any sense to me at all.

[Flor]

And it doesn't make sense to me to not look at alternate ways of being. I can't say, I am living in America now so I do things the American way. I can learn a lot from my experiences in other places and from my friends who were raised in other ways.

[spatulagirl]

I have alived in two different countries with children and travelled many many more.

I have a son who throws several trantrums a day. He has been very spirited and high needs since day one.

In Japan, where he was born, it was unheard of. Children do not throw tantrums there. The culture does not support that. When DS would cry or scream you knew the Japanese were not comfortable with it.

Then we moved to Italy where you see children and babies freaking out all the time. When DS throws a fit (and he loves to do it in public, anywhere any time!) they bend over backwards to make him smile. He gets candy, treats, toys, a tour of the kitchen. Food gets sent back for him, he gets tickeled. Anything he wants. He could destroy a restaurant and they would probably find it cute :LOL