or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Gentle Discipline › Tantrums worldwide?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Tantrums worldwide? - Page 3

post #41 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dal
I wonder if we all mean roughly the same thing by the word "tantrum." It just seems so sad and strange to me that it is normal for someone to be prone to hysterical wailing, kicking, thrashing, screaming and the like -- often several times each day. Something just seems wrong with this. It just seems so extreme to me. Maybe once in a rare while, but for this to happen frequently? Over minor upsets even? Something just seems wrong there. That is my gut response. Perhaps it will change as I live and learn.

I have absolutely no problem with healthy emotions or with crying. I don't try to stifle Simon's cries, though I do try to prevent unnecessary crying and melt-downs. I guess that's what I'm getting at. Are tantrums the result of too much built up stress and an environment that is lacking something important for the child (which I would guess are things such as variety, space, nature, freedom to explore)?.

Hey Dal, I'm not 'offended', but it makes me wonder if you've encountered high needs babies before. I have two kids. Same environment. One didn't tantrum at all until several months past two. The other tantrumed starting at 6m! The difference?? My second is high needs. If you aren't familier, it is just a word for a specific temperment type. DD is INTENSE, she is persistent, she is demanding. She just has such a strong opinion on things, that if things don't go her exact way, it is the end of the world. She is fifteen months, and she can have a cup with milk in it at dinner, but if she decides she likes the other cup on the table better... she will ask for it NON-STOP, and then will tantrum if she doesn't get it. If I start to empty the dish washer, she goes NUTS, why? B/c she wants to run it... well, we can't run it until it is unloaded and loaded again. So, she tantrums. She just feels so strongly, and has such energy..... I remember one case, when she was 10m she tantrumed b/c we wouldn't wash her hands for a third time in a row.

I think this is one of the problems in society... people don't understand how much temperment plays a part in kids or even adults. So, you go to the store and see kids tantruming, and you know many people without kids, or little exposure to kids automatically are thinking it is parenting issue. Until a person has a HN or spirited kid, it is sometimes hard to understand that there isn't something wrong with the environment or the kids, but that the child just feels more strongly than others.

Now there are triggers to tantruming... my oldest has fought naps since 2 months old... one of the main reasons she tantrums is b/c she is tired and just can't control her emotions or express them anymore. (and believe me we've tried about everything to get her to nap). My youngest, she just tantrums b/c she feels strongly about everything around her... no triggers are needed other than her not getting exactly what she wants.


Tammy
post #42 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelle
mmaramba - I disagree that giving a child what they want when they're having a meltdown is always a bad idea. In my 1st post on this thread, I explained how my daughter "tantrumed" because she wanted the lid off the bottle I gave her and she couldn't get the lid off. She couldn't speak to tell me what she wanted, so she became extremely frustrated when she couldn't do it herself. Following the steps you gave, I would have simply empathized with her by telling her I knew she was angry about something. I would then have left it at that and waited for her to calm down. IMO, that actually plays into the whole mainstream manipulation theories. Basically, it's saying that by bothering to find out what was upsetting her and helping her get what she wanted, I was *teaching* her to manipulate me. I don't buy that. There is nothing wrong with doing a little problem solving to find out what is upsetting your child so much and help them if it's something they can have or do. There are enough "no's" in a child's life without adding to them just because they've screamed before you figured out what was wrong. KWIM? If she's having a meltdown because she can't have the knife out of the dishwasher, I won't give it to her. She has then learned she can't always have everything she wants. No need to refuse her *everything* she cries about, just becuase grandma says if I open that bottle for her she's learned that a tantrum gets her way. IMO, refusing them something they're really upset about just because they got upset is only teaching them that frustration/sadness/anger are "bad" and shouldn't be expressed.
I don't think I disagree with you, Richelle... Perhaps I could ammend my "steps." What I mean is that it is probably important to not see the kid as manipulative-- which is what you did with the bottle/cap incident-- you didn't act as though it was manipulative.

I don't think there's anything wrong with giving your child what she wants in cases like that. What I'm talking about is ALWAYS giving your child something, as a reaction to the tantrum... seeing it as a "request" or "demand" for something, rather than as frustration because she can't COMMUNICATE what she wants.

Do YKWIM? I think it's a small distinction, but maybe an important one.

I also think that if you KNOW what your child wants, and you KNOW that your child is tantruming out of the frustration of not getting it-- and it's something she cannot have, like a sharp knife-- then you (general you) should focus on the frustration she feels and not see it as a "demand" to either "give in to" or to "stand firm against." Does that make sense?

Again, I'm not saying one-size-fits-all... But does this make sense as a general theory? I'm thinking your child picks up on how you're viewing the situation-- as a power struggle or as a communication/emotional issue. And that's where it's important to be "consistent."

Sometimes, you might be "inconsistent" in whether you give the child an item-- but you will always be consistent in your treatment of the situation-- trying to figure out what your child is telling you, empathizing with her, helping her learn to express herself in productive ways, etc. If it's the bottlecap, you figure out what she's trying to say, take the cap off, and (maybe) try to help her communicate her needs in a more effective way the next time ("Honey, I can see you are upset. If you want mama to help you, please say or do X.")... If it's the knife, you act similarly-- you just don't give her the knife. ("Honey, I can see you are upset. Mama can't give you the knife, though. It hurts.")

Yes? No? Something like that?
post #43 of 86
Hmm...

"Other cultures" as in Natual Living cultures perhaps?

Let's see what they have vs what we have that might contribute to the topic being discussed:

1. Community environment (being a part of community, many "hands" to assist the Mother) - vs Nuclear Family (being the one who has to be treated differetly, only one pair of Mothers hands)

2. Many kids to socialize with vs one or two kids OR scheduled day care enviroment

3. Lots of space and things to explore (mostly outside - nature can be explored endlessly) vs somewhat of an isolation in an apartment or house with limits of what and when can be touched

4. Fresh air almost all the time vs limited exposure to fresh air (even 6-7 hours a day IS a limited exposure) plus smog, exhaust, other pollutants

5. Waking up when rested and going to bed when tired - vs scheduled routine

6. Eating foods free of any chemicals - vs chemically laces previously frozen and microwaved foods

7. Lots of natural physical activity - vs made-up activities like Gymnastics, etc.,

8. Adults that have simple purpose - vs adults that have too many responsibilities and lots of stress

I think all of the above can contribute to a larger or lesser degree.

Also, a disclamer - I am and my kids are products of Western cuture, so we engage in lots of the stuff in the right column ourselves (including Gymnastics)
post #44 of 86
Gotcha, mmaramba! Yes, we agree.

I was giving this whole "culture" thing more thought and I was thinking that human babies weren't meant to live in a world where so much is off limits and so many things are unsafe. Probably, 5000 years ago, meltdowns weren't as common as they are in the modern world, just because pretty much everything was okay. Today, no matter how much you baby proof and how careful you are, there will be so many more things your child can't have or do than there were long ago. Babies weren't really designed to deal with so much frustration. I, like irinam, think modern life is the problem. :LOL And, like quaz, I just think maybe some have never experienced a "spirited" or "high-needs" child.
post #45 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by irinam
Hmm...

"Other cultures" as in Natual Living cultures perhaps?

Let's see what they have vs what we have that might contribute to the topic being discussed:

1. Community environment (being a part of community, many "hands" to assist the Mother) - vs Nuclear Family (being the one who has to be treated differetly, only one pair of Mothers hands)

2. Many kids to socialize with vs one or two kids OR scheduled day care enviroment

3. Lots of space and things to explore (mostly outside - nature can be explored endlessly) vs somewhat of an isolation in an apartment or house with limits of what and when can be touched

4. Fresh air almost all the time vs limited exposure to fresh air (even 6-7 hours a day IS a limited exposure) plus smog, exhaust, other pollutants

5. Waking up when rested and going to bed when tired - vs scheduled routine

6. Eating foods free of any chemicals - vs chemically laces previously frozen and microwaved foods

7. Lots of natural physical activity - vs made-up activities like Gymnastics, etc.,

8. Adults that have simple purpose - vs adults that have too many responsibilities and lots of stress

I think all of the above can contribute to a larger or lesser degree.

Also, a disclamer - I am and my kids are products of Western cuture, so we engage in lots of the stuff in the right column ourselves (including Gymnastics)

What culture, specifically, are you talking about? Is domestic violence and child rape an issue? What is the political structure of this "other culture"? I don't think you can really begin to understand parenting practices in another culture until you look at the overall ways in which the community works together, and against each other, and

You're giving in to the myth of the "noble savage". Here's more on that...

http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/Noble_savage

I'm not saying that we have nothing to learn from cultures outside of our own. I'm saying that it is tempting to take the observations we make out of context and use them to fit what we already believe. I've read a study about the babies in that Romanian orphanage that did not cry. Am I going to let my baby cry until she no longer sees the point? Of course not. Usually, when we do this, we look for ways to back up what we already believe. The sheer volume of misinformation about non-white cultures shared in the name of promoting attachment parenting is appalling and embarrassing. I read recently that Eskimos do not use diapers. Made as such a broad statement in that context, that statement is false.

I think it is disrespectful to pick and choose what we learn and take from cultures outside of our own based on what we need.
post #46 of 86
Richelle, I'm glad we "get" one another on the manipulation thing.

As for the world today being "more dangerous," I don't think so... I mean, our ancestors didn't have to worry about car accidents, but we don't have to worry much about wild animals, so there you go.

I think it's that we are much more aware of the dangers that do exist-- perhaps hyper-aware. This means that we are able to protect our kids from dangers our ancestors may not have fully understood (disease, choking and drowning hazards, lead poisoning, etc.) Since we know how to keep 95%+ of our kids alive through their toddlerhood (unlike people even 100 years ago), we have fewer kids... Since we have fewer of them, we are more protective-- and to some extent, more fearful and more controlling-- although being more protective has its benefits, too.

Our ancestors (and people in very "undeveloped" countries) had a tough time drawing connections to what caused childhood illness, injury and death. Therefore, they didn't feel that they could control much of what happened to their kids-- it was luck or God or fate that determined whether kids survived, not "protection," FTMP. So they often let their kids do things we wouldn't think of letting our kids do today-- playing in potentially dangerous places with no supervision, eating "unsanitary" foods, etc. Some of them died from bad accidents or food poisoning, but parents didn't necessarily "get it," since they had so much less information-- like studies drawing correlations from large populations, that eventually become cultural practices or government mandates.

This led the kids--very often-- to become more independent and resourceful, among other things. Of course, that's assuming they survived. Most of them did, but certainly many fewer than survive now.

Does that make sense? I think it's tough to find a balance... We should be grateful that we know how to control/prevent so many problems, but not expect to have total control, either.

Hmmmmmmm.....
post #47 of 86
Quote:
I think it's that we are much more aware of the dangers that do exist-- perhaps hyper-aware. This means that we are able to protect our kids from dangers our ancestors may not have fully understood (disease, choking and drowning hazards, lead poisoning, etc.) Since we know how to keep 95%+ of our kids alive through their toddlerhood (unlike people even 100 years ago), we have fewer kids... Since we have fewer of them, we are more protective-- and to some extent, more fearful and more controlling-- although being more protective has its benefits, too.

Our ancestors (and people in very "undeveloped" countries) had a tough time drawing connections to what caused childhood illness, injury and death. Therefore, they didn't feel that they could control much of what happened to their kids-- it was luck or God or fate that determined whether kids survived, not "protection," FTMP. So they often let their kids do things we wouldn't think of letting our kids do today-- playing in potentially dangerous places with no supervision, eating "unsanitary" foods, etc. Some of them died from bad accidents or food poisoning, but parents didn't necessarily "get it," since they had so much less information-- like studies drawing correlations from large populations, that eventually become cultural practices or government mandates.
These are really good points. When people talk about homebirth, sometimes they start talking about midwifery in "tribal" societies. I believe that homebirth is significantly safer in the US than hospital birth, but I'm bothered by the narrow perspective taken on birth in tribal societies. The high maternal and infant mortality rates in those societies is never discussed in this context.
post #48 of 86
Thread Starter 
I'm really getting a lot out of this discussion.

Let me say that I'm wondering if tantrumming numerous times each day is a problem rather than an occasional one here or there. If I saw a child tantrumming at a store, I wouldn't think any less of the parents for it at all. I'd just respect that the child is having a rough time and the parent is dealing with it. If the parent was being disgusting about it (threatening to spank or whatever), that's when I'd be judgmental. I don't like to listen to mean parents who disrespect their children!

It sounds like many here would believe that it is a mix of temperament and the way that our society is set up. That sounds reasonable to me. Perhaps the most actively inclined children find it hardest to cope with restrictions? Or the most persistent children? I guess it would be a combination of factors.

While I do wonder if certain cultural set-ups might be more conducive to less tantrums, I am aware that these same cultures (and I don't really even have one in mind, in particular, just a hazy image) tend to be far, far worse off than ours (well, mine at least -- not sure where you are from or what you identify with) in other aspects and that these make children born there worse off in the long run.

I haven't come into contact with many high needs babies. I have one friend (more of an acquaintance, really) who is an AMAZING woman. She has two children. I can't be 100% certain, but I would bet about everything I have that she is an incredible mother who is very AP and GD. One of her children was a very difficult and colicky baby. So I do believe that some babies/children are just more sensitive than others in these ways. Not that I wouldn't if it weren't for this woman, but the fact that it happened to her makes this point as knowable to me as it can be without having a high needs child of my own.

ETA: Hmmmm. I wonder how this plays out on idealistic communes such as The Farm? Were it not for dh's reluctance -- har har, more like adamant refusal -- I'd very seriously consider moving to such a place if I could find one where I felt I belonged. I usually don't feel like I belong in our society, especially when I'm in a bad mood! This ends my digression.
post #49 of 86
I think that sometimes we're quick to label children who aren't happy, happy, happy all the time "high needs". My middle child is a drama queen. His mood can turn from deliriously happy to screaming on the floor before your very eyes with no outward indication as to why. He was like that from the day he was born. If anything, I'd be inclined to say that the culture I live in allows him to express himself. I don't always think screaming on the floor is a bad thing. He gets it out and moves on. Surely if he were to do it in a grocery store it would be different, but he rarely has these displays in public. He seems to have a sense that at home, he is safe.
post #50 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by michelemiller
my family is from South America and i have spent a lot of time there with my younger cousins...and the main difference i see is in the attitude of the parents, not the behavior of the children. this is probably just in my family, and i can't generalize to the entire "culture" but they just don't care as much about their "things" that the kids want to play with. they want the remote? ok...they broke the remote? oops...we'll deal. they want to eat dirt? ok, just make sure he/she doesn't choke. there isn't a whole lot that they're really uptight about. they understand that kids are unpredictable, don't understand 'the rules' and will 'mess up' all the time and that's just what they're supposed to do. they don't want them to be independent, they don't expect them to adhere to a schedule, they never make them sleep alone, etc...

sure the kids cry. but honestly, tantrums tend to happen when the child's desires don't mesh with the parents' desires/expectations. i have found that in my family in south america, their expectations are just very very different and don't typically clash with their kids'.
u r so right. it is the same in my culture too. it is more child centric than parent centric which is what i find mainstream culture here is. but i also understand why it is so with so much stress on the parents. ChasingPeace makes the same point of what she noticed in Lebanon.

now i am not saying no child tantrums. every child has throw at least some tantrums from teh appearence of mankind. i find it impossible to believe that a child never throws tantrums. whether a laid back child or a high needs child - the only difference between them is the degree. tantrums are so natural, they are so part of their development. it is a great learning tool for both parent and child. the child learning what is socially acceptable behaviour (u dont hit or kick in anger) and a parent learning how to 'talk' to their child (spanking them to stop hitting is definitely not the way to teach the child).

u know what i find interesting is that here we are having a huge but v. interesting discussion about tantrums. while in the other cultures they would question 'whats the big deal'? whats there to talk about?

mmaramba - i dont think tantrums go away. IMO - this is my theory. tantrum is anger, frustration. we all feel that. we just learn to deal with them. we learn the socially acceptable way as a child as to how to throw a tantrum. and so tantrums turn into an outburst and whatever other terms u may call it in the adult world. i guess the adult version of tantrum is physical abuse. i am assuming that the word tantrum implies physical violence of some sort and not just tears and words.

with a small child the thing i focus on is the emotion. not the cause of the tantrum. once they burst into tears and lose it they forget the reason that made them so mad and instead struggle to get the emotions out of them. they still havent learnt how to avoid situations that create tantrums that we as adults have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mothra
I think it is disrespectful to pick and choose what we learn and take from cultures outside of our own based on what we need.
good point mothra. it brings a smile to my lips because in my country a lot (not all) of people think the US is like 'baywatch' or 'oprah'.
post #51 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
What culture, specifically, are you talking about?
I was not talking about any *specific* culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
You're giving in to the myth of the "noble savage".
If you will, I probably am

The discussion was about what may contribute to toddlers not having tantrums and those were my thoughts on why *I think* it might be. We were NOT discussing any particular culture and how it might be better than ours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
I'm not saying that we have nothing to learn from cultures outside of our own.
Exactly! So let's do. We don't have to all of a sudden convert (and probably will not be able to) our society to the "nobbe savage" society, but we can still analyse different aspects of other cultures and maybe adapt *some* of them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
I've read a study about the babies in that Romanian orphanage that did not cry.
I don't see how orphanage environment can even remotly be considered natural to which I was refering to

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
The sheer volume of misinformation about non-white cultures shared in the name of promoting attachment parenting is appalling and embarrassing.
Again, not by any means was I discussing any given culture and taking only the "snap-shots" in portraying this culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
I think it is disrespectful to pick and choose what we learn and take from cultures outside of our own based on what we need.
Why do you think it is disrespectful to pick and choose what might be useful to us? If for example I see a mother somewhere in a different country using a cool breastfeeding or slinging "technique" - I would be interested in adopting it (most probably without going into a complete study of her culture and other aspects of it)
post #52 of 86
This is a really interesting thread and I don't feel like I have a whole lot to contribute, but it did occur to me that here in the U.S. we are sooooo commercialized. It is a HUGE part of our lives. "To have" is "to be happy" and you can bet the farm that toddlers have already picked up on that.

Then they are surrounded by our wild overabundance of things, things that are being aggressively marketed to them and placed to appeal to them, and of course they can't have all those things. That to me would be one way in which U.S. culture contributes to struggles and tantrums -- our commercialism so often pits the child against the parent.

I don't have any firsthand knowledge about, say, European countries and marketing to kids, and I would be fascinated to hear from someone who does, but I think this one factor would make a big difference between the modern U.S. and, say, an underdeveloped part of Mexico, or a tribe in the Amazon rainforest, or a Sioux tribe 400 years ago: fewer things, fewer choices, means fewer things to be overwhelmed with.
post #53 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by girlndocs
-- our commercialism so often pits the child against the parent.
I so-o-o agree! Though I would make the same "correction" as I do when I argue with DH on this - this is not USA specific.

"Commercialism" is a desease that's plaguing more and more places
post #54 of 86
Quote:
If you will, I probably am

The discussion was about what may contribute to toddlers not having tantrums and those where my thoughts on why *I think* it might be. We were NOT discussing any particular culture and how it might be better than ours
This is the problem, and it is a big one. You are grouping many cultures together, without giving them individual consideration and recognition, in order to prove a point you want to make. You're talking about "primitive" cultures, right? The myth of the "noble savage" is widely considered to be racist and condescending, and in this context I believe that it is.

Your idea that some cultures are more "natural" than others are based on false assumptions and stereotypes and a contrived definition of the word "natural". Stereotypes, even ones that you deem positive, still contribute to racism.

I think it is disrespectful to pick and choose what we want from other cultures because it invalidates the culture as a whole. I'm pretty sure no one here wants to start talking about cultural appropriation and exploitation, so I'll drop it there.
post #55 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
I think that sometimes we're quick to label children who aren't happy, happy, happy all the time "high needs". My middle child is a drama queen. His mood can turn from deliriously happy to screaming on the floor before your very eyes with no outward indication as to why. He was like that from the day he was born. If anything, I'd be inclined to say that the culture I live in allows him to express himself. I don't always think screaming on the floor is a bad thing. He gets it out and moves on. Surely if he were to do it in a grocery store it would be different, but he rarely has these displays in public. He seems to have a sense that at home, he is safe.
I do think that is very true. My sis/mom (who live in a different state), continually try to use the term high needs for my sis's child, since I've used it for mine. I've seen this child on three different occasions in the 8 months of her life. This child is SOOooo not high needs. I try to tell them, that my niece reminds much of my oldest who wasn't high needs, BUT was very observant, didn't want to miss anything and who faught sleep. I think that a child that isn't "low key" can be mistakenly labeled as high needs by people (like my sis/mom), who think kids are 'easy'. My dd on the flip side... hit every attribute on that dr sears site dead on.

I also think part of high needs has to do with cultural restrictions...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dal
It sounds like many here would believe that it is a mix of temperament and the way that our society is set up. That sounds reasonable to me. Perhaps the most actively inclined children find it hardest to cope with restrictions? Or the most persistent children? I guess it would be a combination of factors.

While I do wonder if certain cultural set-ups might be more conducive to less tantrums,

See I so agree with that. Some kids don't deal with restrictions well, b/c they are so active and persistent. My dd freaked in the car seat, but 30 years ago when they didn't require them, she would have been great in a car ride. You combine temperment with cultural set-up/expectations, along with just the age of me/me/me autonomy.... and ya end up with tantrums, b/c the kids simply can't express such raw emotions.



Tammy
post #56 of 86
Mothra, just want to say that I second everything you have said...

Must be that African American Studies degree I'm getting...
post #57 of 86
Mothra, I just don't understand. How can thinking parents not take the best aspects of other practices and incorporate them into their childrearing? How can I not read about other people doing something differently, having positve results, and not try it myself? Should I stop reading about other culture's practices? Don't you think that slinging, for example, and maybe nursing in public have been stolen from cultures other than North American? What is the border of my culture since I come from a mixed background? What is the alternate choice? Only following practices of mainstream America?
post #58 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
I think that sometimes we're quick to label children who aren't happy, happy, happy all the time "high needs".
I'm not sure exactly what you are saying, in regards to this thread?

Obviously, some people will call their children high needs/spirited when they aren't, but a lot of kids are in fact high needs.
post #59 of 86
First of all, where did I say that you shouldn't learn from other cultures? What I said was that if you are going to look at one particular aspect of a culture outside of your own, you need to understand how it fits into the bigger picture. Talking about how people in Culture X co-sleep and how wonderful it is for them doesn't tell me anything about how it fits into my life. It also does Culture X a disservice because it reduces the people of that culture to a two-dimensional image of what we need them to be in order to serve our own purpose-- in this case, advocate for co-sleeping.

Do I think you should stop reading parenting books based on practices in other cultures? I'm not going to tell you what to do, and I think you know that is ridiculous, but I do not read such books. I think you know the borders of your own culture, that will be different for everyone.

Who said anything about "mainstream" America? I think you are missing my point completely. If you really are interested in what I'm talking about, read more about the myth of the noble savage and cultural appropriation. I've explained about as well as I'm capable.

The notion that babywearing and nursing in public belong to a particular culture is absurd. Breastfeeding is certainly not cultural, it is biological, and babywearing has been done in almost every culture across the globe in some form or another.
post #60 of 86
Quote:
I'm not sure exactly what you are saying, in regards to this thread?

Obviously, some people will call their children high needs/spirited when they aren't, but a lot of kids are in fact high needs.
Of course lots of kids are high needs. My nephew is. My neighbor's kid is. What I meant is that many people would probably call MY kid high needs if they observed him for short periods of time because he is prone to fits and tantrums. The conversation started by the OP was framed in the context that tantrums are bad and are something that should be avoided. I don't necessarily agree. I also don't think that every child that is prone to tantrums is high needs, although from what i hear in real life and on these boards, that seems to be the popular opinion. I would never tell anyone else that their kid is not high needs, but I see some of my friends struggling with daycare and the school system and even parents of their children's friends and the quickness with which a child can be labeled high needs just by expressing him or herself in a way that makes others uncomfortable.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Gentle Discipline
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Gentle Discipline › Tantrums worldwide?