"New Mamas of Spirtual Awakening in Our Marriages" roll call - Page 6

[yaM yaM]

Originally Posted by loved

People are not perfect.
How bad is the "bad behavior"?
If you're fighting in front of the children: stop. It has to be the number one rule.
If he refuses to stop then get out - because it is nothing short of child abuse.

Aside from abuse and infidelity - what warrents divorce?

If you are feeling like a victim than haven't you allowed yourself to feel that way? What is our part in the behavior?

I really really believe that when two people get married and then have children they should do every single thing they can to save thier marriage before they earn the right to a divorce (barring the above - and even sometimes with infidelity). The children deserve thier efforts. They deserve that thier parents figuer it out...hell, even act as if they are happy (because sometimes that does result in rekindling the friendship they once had), go away on an extended vacation together - hash it out, fight it out, save the marriage - do whatever it it takes.

I believe marriage is important.

I feel very concerned reading this post,

because you are expressing strong, strong opinions on a subject you obviously cannot personally relate to. And I'd also like to suggest that you
open up your heart in good faith to the common ground women share (in other words, trust your fellow sisters and their intuition!) Only SHE is the expert on her own reality!

I say this because . . .

If you were able to personally relate to the subject matter you're discussing, you'd know that you don't have to state the obvious, such as 'people are not perfect.'

You'd know that the above-referenced, bold-type paragraph is highly loaded.
In fact, you'd know that this is just the insidious and dangerous kind of thinking that grants licensure to abusers and perpetuates suffering in victims.

You'd know that your rhetoric on the importance of marriage would be a given to these ladies who share a thread titled 'self/marriage *enlightenment* support group.'


Especially, I ask that you not make assumtions.

[sphinx]

wow. i'll have to read this thread over and over. mystic mama, i am having similar experiences with dh, and angelbee i am feeling often as you do.

Mystic mama, I am a member of SGI but my practice has been off and on for a few years now. I want to say the Gosho (writings of Nichiren Daishonin) remind us that we need to meet the student at the appropriate time and with the appropriate teaching for him or her personally; in other words, one should not attempt shakabuku (or, in this case, discussion and sharing of feelings) until the student is ready and only then in a manner that meets the student’s capacity.

So maybe you need to explore whether there is another language you can use with dh that does not include talking. He obviously can't/doesn't want to and trying to make him has backfired and is a source of deep frustration for you. My dh & I have similarly crossed the line of decency when arguing, and I often feel I am talking to a wall. Talking things out is just not his preferred mode of emoting or solving conflicts. He has told me that it doesn’t help him feel better to talk things out. Though I may believe that that is unusual or abnormal, I have to accept it as his truth. My dh has sometimes chanted with me and it really helps strengthen us. Maybe invite him more often to chant with you, and don’t get angry when he refuses but just continue on the path to better yourself.

It is really essential to renew basic human respect for him by practicing right speech. I know it is so hard, esp if he continues being mean. I keep making the vow to myself and then slipping again, but plant the seed there and it will grow.

I have to disagree that the usage of vulgar expressions is just a phase and will stop. Children repeat what they hear. When their parents fight with nastiness, that is how the kids act. Believe me, my dd (5.5) repeats every bad thing she hears dh & i say to each. When we are nicer to each other, dd the sponge is also nicer. My children’s behavior is the clearest example of cause and effect I have ever seen!

thank u for this thread!!

[loved]

MayMay -

I do know of what I speak. I have been there and am there now. I believe we need to demand more of ourselves first - respect demands respect. And then demand more out of him.

I am not talking awful abuse. Mine has been emotionally abusive for some time - but I know my part in it, today...after much, much work on me and how I behave.

People miss the mark. They just do.

This is not to excuse his behavior - it's to help us with ours. I beleive we marry not by mistake - there are no accidents. And the pain that often arises has very, very important significance in our own growth.

Regardless, this probably is not the thread for me. I am extremely fragile myself right now, so carry on.
I'm outta here.

[allgirls]

[QUOTE=loved]MayMay -

I do know of what I speak. I have been there and am there now. I believe we need to demand more of ourselves first - respect demands respect. And then demand more out of him. [QUOTE]

I am sorry you are having a tough time.

This thread is about taking our own responsiblity...I am not sure if you have read it all...that's pretty much what it's about...changing ourselves because we can't change him...I think you have missed the point somehow if you need to state the obvious.

And obviously every woman here thinks marriage is important else they wouldn't be taking so much time tryin to fix things in theirs.

(Actually..I am probably the exception in this as I am not married in the traditional sense. I am partnered though...deeply committed as is my partner)

I actually don't believe in "marriage" except in the spiritual sense. So many people get married but aren't actually "married" to each other...in other words, the committment isn't there, just the paper..it's sad. Even sadder when children are involved.

Sometimes it's better for the children if the relationship dissolve...if it's not working and the children are better off outside of it...that's the right thing to do. Marriage is important...but secondary to the happiness and peace of mind a child needs.

But I do think a person absolutely must be sure that it is best for the child that the marriage dissolve...sometimes a persons judgement is clouded when they are in the middle of the emotion.

[yaM yaM]

Originally Posted by loved

I am not talking awful abuse. Mine has been emotionally abusive for some time - but I know my part in it, today...after much, much work on me and how I behave.

People miss the mark. They just do.

This is not to excuse his behavior - it's to help us with ours. I beleive we marry not by mistake - there are no accidents. And the pain that often arises has very, very important significance in our own growth.Regardless, this probably is not the thread for me. I am extremely fragile myself right now, so carry on.
I'm outta here.

Just a few things to respond with, here. .

I want to let you know, in case you're feeling confused (like I was for a long time):

you have NO *part* in your husband's behavior. He is the single-handed initiator of his own moves. Anyone, including your dh and any *expert,* who tries to tell you that you cause reactions of his is perpetuating patriarchy and in denial of the basic human rights issue at its core.

Also, I agree with you that our marriages are not mistakes/coincidences etc. Not at all. But I interpret the 'significance of the pain that arises' differently than you do. I see it as an opportunity to refine our boundaries, our moral boundaries.



in·teg·ri·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-tgr-t)
n.
Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.


~~
Integrity is my lesson, these days. I am growing it inside me, so I can birth it and Be it and feed it to my children. It is helping me to open up to the possibility that that might mean my dh's and my work together is complete, if he cannot harmoniously cohabitate with my Integrity.

Right now, in this moment and from now on, that means loyalty to the Goddess within me.



And lastly, I'd like to ask, what is your definition of 'awful abuse,' if you're willing to share that?
~~


And now, for a little




~Patriarchy Myth Trivia~


Did you know??
'We hurt the ones we love the most' is a big pile o' poop.

[loved]

Perhaps I will try again

I will admit I should not have just jumped into this thread with my strong opinions coming from the situation/circumstances I am faced with right now and the strong emotions I feel. I apologize for being crass.

I had, however, read most of what was written and am sweetly amazed by what's been said and offered.

Yes we do intrepret the significance of the pain we feel in our relationships differently - for me it means reliquishing boundaries not putting up more walls, letting go of ego and most improtantly, being more humble in looking at my part.

No, I can't make him anything. But I sure as hell can close up and not meet his needs and treat him bitterly and make conditions ripe for his worst side by my worst side.

I do not know the answers to other peoples problems. I do believe when children are involved if there is a shred of hope or love left that doing whatever needs to be done to save the marriage is a necessity...whether that comes from one or both...regardless of what that takes...with the goal being that to come out the other side better and fuller and richer than we could've imagined.

And sometimes we do hurt the ones we love. I did.

"Awful abuse" - you decide. For me, physical or addictions. The emotional abuse I have suffered has not been an accident and is still forgivable. We are two good people who've done some bad things. Sometimes that's all it is.
In my relationship, we've both missed the mark.

[ankh]

Loved
I'm sorry you are going through a rough time.

Originally Posted by loved

"Awful abuse" - you decide. For me, physical or addictions. The emotional abuse I have suffered has not been an accident and is still forgivable. We are two good people who've done some bad things. Sometimes that's all it is.
In my relationship, we've both missed the mark.

I agree it is sometimes forgivable to subject each other to emotional abuse, my concern is putting children through it and them witnessing me going through it. Is the outcome worth it? Noone knows the answer to that, but I do believe we should not risk our childrens' mental well being in order to find out.

I'm certainly not expecting anyone to answer my huge and sometimes ridiculous questions. This is the first time I have really realised that nothing is that black and white.

Lisa

[yaM yaM]

Originally Posted by loved

No, I can't make him anything. But I sure as hell can close up and not meet his needs and treat him bitterly and make conditions ripe for his worst side by my worst side.

"Part of how the abuser escapes confronting himself is by convincing you that you are the cause of his behavior, or that you at least share the blame. But abuse is not a product of bad relationship dynamics, and you cannot make things better by changing your own behavior or by attempting to manage your partner better. Abuse is a problem that lies entirely within the abuser."




This is an excerpt from one of Lundy Bancroft's books. He is an expert on the minds of controlling men.

The reason that there is nothing you can possibly do to make things better in your relationship, if it is an abusive one, is because the abusers intentions lie in the arena of control, privledge, and entitlement. As long as he has that intention behind his actions, nothing you ever do or say can make things better. If you doubt me and keep trying and trying, then I just ask you to pay attention. Look for patterns of the above; the 'never being good enough.'


Also, I'd like to ask . . .

by any chance, is your 'bitterness' that you refer to a reaction to his behavior? Does he seem to 'punish' you for being angry at him?

[tug]

I have been reading this thread (lurking) for a long time. I'd like to thank everybody for their thoughtful posts that are really helping me to be mindful in my own marriage.

loved - i see the truth of a lot of what you say. in my relationship, i definitely had a part in what was going on. my part was absolutely to understand myself as a victim and to interpret all of his actions from my self-defined position as victim. i also understand that my situation is very very different from how you've described your situation mystic mama and angelbee and even may may. i'm glad that each of us can find some wisdom in this thread to draw on. i'm glad for your insights loved. thank you.

[loved]

May May - i see the logic in what you say. I really do.
And maybe if I had six months on my own I would look back and say, "Wow. That was really messed Up!"

and maybe I would simply say, "wow, I am just like my mother"...I learned to use bitterness and anger from her. Burned once, she kept all men at a distance...except her beloved father.

I think we are both 'victims' in this. the way he closes himself off, shuts down, discounts my feelings, my dreams, my desires, what I think and say, invalidates, passive-aggressive, works-too-much, stares-me-down, insults me, doesn't trust me (not all the time, certainly - but more frequently as time has gone on)...you know it doesn't come from a good place. And while I can say he is controlling and patriarchal - I also know in my heart that he too, is oppressed. Boys get it WORSE than girls (oh, how I fear for my son), at least girls are allowed to cry. We would never hurt another unless we were hurt first...

Call it "identifying with the abuser" (a label of which I will not give him - "abuser"s a pretty strong term - he's a good man)...call it "perpetuating my victimhood" - whatever.

I am just not so sure it would've gotten as bad as it has had I not been so cold and self-righteous. Does anyone have a "right" to do that to another - to themselves? We learn this stuff. I think it's the dark side of being a woman.

[mystic~mama]

loved~

thank you for sharing your perspective here. I sympathyze with much of what you have posted...I look for my reasponsiblity in the way my dh acts and I'm at a cross roads. I'm trying to figure out, do I leave or do I stay?

My heart wants to go and I cry everytime I face that (like now).

I want more than anything to keep this family together but I dont know if it is worth the cost?

tug

sphinx~

very insightful post

you posted~

Though I may believe that that is unusual or abnormal, I have to accept it as his truth.

I have always felt that there is something abnormal about my dh not wanting to communicate...I have never thought of it in this way....wow...thank you


blessings to all you beautiful mamas~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[sphinx]

Originally Posted by loved

Call it "identifying with the abuser" (a label of which I will not give him - "abuser"s a pretty strong term - he's a good man)...call it "perpetuating my victimhood" - whatever.

I am just not so sure it would've gotten as bad as it has had I not been so cold and self-righteous.

i'm right here with you.

[yaM yaM]

*

[yaM yaM]

Misogynistic comments from women:

- All men act like that, you must not *get men*
- That's just how men are, honey (tongue in cheek)
- He's a great man, I just don't see what you're talking about
- You're reading into it
- Your over-reacting
- You are hyper-sensitive
- You sure are 'hormonal' -- is it your time of the month?
- Stop making waves
- You should be grateful for all that he does for you and stop complaining
- You're expecting unrealistic things
- You're a perfectionist
- You're trying to control him
- You should be thankful . . .back in my day it was customary for men to beat their wives, etc. etc.
- You need to work on your appearance (meaning: that's why he's treating you the way that he is, i.e. 'you deserve it')

[AngelBee]

I am back from the dance academy nationals......they did great! :

I will read and get caught up an the thread.

to all of you!!!

[mystic~mama]

angelbee glad everything went well and your back!

[loved]

Thank you May May!
Amazing.
So much for me to think about. I deeply appreciate it.

[mystic~mama]

Originally Posted by loved

Thank you May May!
Amazing.
So much for me to think about. I deeply appreciate it.

i second that!!

[MsMoMpls]

Originally Posted by May May

Oh, and also . . .

Part of why it took me *so long* to come to this place (statistically speaking, btw, it often takes women much longer than six years) was because of misogynistic comments from women, such as:

- All men act like that, you must not *get men*
- That's just how men are, honey (tongue in cheek)
- He's a great man, I just don't see what you're talking about
- You're reading into it
- Your over-reacting
- You are hyper-sensitive
- You sure are 'hormonal' -- is it your time of the month?
- Stop making waves
- You should be grateful for all that he does for you and stop complaining
- You're expecting unrealistic things
- You're a perfectionist
- You're trying to control him
- You should be thankful . . .back in my day it was customary for men to beat their wives, etc. etc.
- You need to work on your appearance (meaning: that's why he's treating you the way that he is, i.e. 'you deserve it')

Wow! Your post has me reeling. I want so to understand what you are saying. I know I have said these things so many times to myself and to other women, even women I am working with in marital therapy. I struggle enormously in how to be a feminist (which I was first) and a marriage counselor (which I have come to reluctantly for just these reasons). Some days I am not sure I can support marriage and be a feminist because the history of marriage has been so destructive to women. But if women keep chosing marriage, chosing men and wanting to struggle to create partnerships, then I feel that bringing my feminism to marriage counseling may be benefitial.

I believe that misogyny (like racism) is part of the fabric of our lives and both men and women have deep seeded sexism which has a strong voice in our romantic relationships and in the way we raise children. I do believe that men and women are very different creatures. I am not challenging your experience at all but I do believe that some women have unrealistic expectations of men and marriage- Can you tell me what would have been helpful to you, what women might have said that was supportive, how did you get to where you are now? I think many women waste a great deal of time and energy doing too much soul searching rather than fighting for fair and equal partnership. And although I think women may have unrealistic expectations, they also often ask too little of their husbands, ask too little of their marriages.

Sorry- I don't think I even know what I am asking. It is just that your post struck me as powerful and it worries me that by supporting a women's goal to strengthen her marriage, I may also be adding to the destruction in her life.

[ankh]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this but it feels relevant to me, my apoligies if not.

We had "the talk" today, I said I felt he had no respect for me as a woman, always prodding me, making fun of me etc " as a joke" I said I didn't want to live my life being told to f off among other things, called names, generally disrespected.

He looked at me like I was talking another language...NO idea whatsoever.

It got to me saying, I dont want to be with someone who treats me like this, he said he didnt want to be with such a tight ass

Apparently I have no sense of humor, I didnt find it funny when he was prodding me with the broom handle and repeatedly asked him to stop so he carried on, all over me, saying I was no fun.

Loooong story short we came to agree on lots of counselling and try to be nice.

I just feel this is such crap, I know deep down I want to leave. I am struggling with the breaking up the family issue, I also realise he will never make it easy for me to leave, I have to face up to the fact it will be long and horrible, I will have to leave the country and his thing is he will never see the kids again.

The more I read and learn, the more angry I become with my own weakness, my own inability to do the right thing for my children and myself. Noone else to blame really, but just realising these things is helping me get there.

The traits I see in him feel like they are way down there where noone can touch them, there are parts of him, ie misogyny, even I think, racism, that will always be there.
Ugh this is really hard.