Originally Posted by MsMoMpls
One thing to think about is that you are almost defending her abusiveness as coming from her abusive history and then saying that their is no excuse for abusiveness from men.
Definately not 'defending' anyone. In fact, if I were friends with these people, I'd encourage the man to develop his own support system, because I know just how difficult dealing with personality disorders can be.
I pointed out my theory about the woman's behavior not to 'defend' her, but to point out that there can be different causes, different roots
, to abusive behavior. Nothing 'excuses' abusive behavior, but there are vastly different responses
necessary, from a professional standpoint such as yours, when diagnosing and responding to abusive situations.
I will repeat something (from a pp I made):
All misogynists are abusive, but not all abusive behaviors are misogynistic.
Originally Posted by MsMoMpls
Do you think that all parent's that lose their temper and hit their kids are abusive? I don't. I think that all hitting is abusive behavior, but not all people who hit are abusive people. And believe me, lots of women hit their husbands but few husbands are truely abused spouses. Just a few things to think about.
ITA with this paragraph, but I want to add something important:
The women who hit their spouses. .
I would strongly suggest that you look carefully into this behavior before judging the situation. Often times, the woman is responding to chronic, pervasive manipulative efforts and abusive behavior, mind games, etc. on behalf of the man. No, it does not 'excuse' her hitting him. What it does do, though, is reinforce the label of 'hysteria' and 'overreacting' that is often put on women in abusive situations who are reacting in a predictable way that any healthy, normal person may do under the same circumstances.
I would like to recommend that you study the truth about modern psychology's foundation in Oedipal theory. If you do some digging, it is possible to uncover available proof that the Oedipus complex is really a cover up that Freud devised when he buckled under heavy pressure from his colleagues due to their loyalty to their patients with their 'excellent reputations.' The truth reveals quite a patriarchal rationale behind the background and foundation of modern psychology.
I do not believe that *hate*
is a part of anyone's 'normal'
marital disputes. I would take it at face value. JMO.
And yes, there are subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) cues to a man's misogynistic views. But keep in mind that, in 2005, the majority of misogynists deliberately
hide their views and behaviors steadfastly
because they know it is no longer socially acceptable to wear these attitudes blatantly on their sleaves. This IS progress, but it makes it even harder to detect the patterns, unfortunately.
to Lisa you said:
Originally Posted by MsMoMpls
I read this book about long term (over 40 year) marriages and the author said that the secret was that women often fantasize about their husband dying. That is the ultimate win. You get to keep the house, the money, the kids.. you don't have to "fail" at marriage and everyone feels bad for you. And that is even true in great and powerful marriages. It is just a fantasy.
Now... I don't think you are losing your marbles but I don't think that your plan has much integrity. I don't think getting hit is a get out of jail free card. If you want out... guess what? You need to do the right thing, even if it is the hardest thing in the world to do.
And I am willing to bet that any woman in this day and age who has lived through 40 years of marriage and is here to tell about it has been struggling personally, deeply
with the effects of patriarchy throughout her life (if she's not in complete denial of it, as many elder women are, imo).
Think about it: we come from thick, pervasive patriarchal roots. Things, *NOW*
are 'better than they've ever been,' thanks to progress and evolution, but there's still a long, long way to go.
These women have these 'fantasies'
because, in their
generation, divorce was *unacceptable* so they trodded on, miserably oppressed for 40 years, using 'fantasies' as a means of survival to avoid literally losing their freaking minds. It's the same survival method slaves used in days gone by, as well as POWs. And these are the women who are conscious
of it all; the rest are in denial, which is a classic symptom of trauma survival and identifying with the abuser as a means of survival; to use a psychological term, it is 'disassociation.'
My grandmother was one of these women, in regards to her marriage. An immigrant who was faithfully and dutifully married to my grotesquely abusive grandfather for 66 years
, she knew no other way to live but like the way you describe; 'concocting secret fantasies.' On her death bed, she could not wait to die
in order to escape the misery she had endured for the majority of her life. If that isn't victimhood personified, I don't know what is.
Also, I'd like to say that your theory about "the ultimate win" is outright dangerous, being that you counsel couples professionally. Please, please
do not say that to women in my shoes or Lisa's shoes. That theory is actually the battle cry of the abuser
. It is the classic, textbook scenario in abusive marriages that spans well beyond the realm of speculative acquaintances and into the arenas of judges, psychologists, custodial evaluators, police, family, friends, etc. . and it is exactly the thing you're accusing the woman
You're basically taking the bait of abusive men everywhere if you believe in this concept.**LISA**
I cannot stress with enough intensity that what you're feeling is NORMAL for women going through what you've described with your husband. The reason is because mind games are particularly insidious; you can't quite put your finger on what's happening, and generally there is just this overwhelming feeling that your judgement is clouded, or even that you're going crazy. Add to that the very real fact that your husband is, in fact, not a monster, he is indeed human and probably does good
things, too. It confuses you. It makes you doubt your perceptions
So when you mix all that together in your mind, combined with outside sources being unaware of your trials or, worse
, in denial of it, and it comes out feeling like you don't have any *proof* to substantiate the fact that he is abusing you. So you wish for him to hit you so that you can say to yourself, "That is my proof."
It's totally, totally
logical and justified
to feel that way, Lisa.
Maureen, I'd like you to read this excerpt on ~The Myth of Neutrality
by Lundy Bancroft
|It is not possible to be truly balanced in one's views of an abuser and an abused woman. As Dr. Judith Herman explains eloquently in her masterwork Trauma and Recovery, "neutrality" actually serves the interests of the perpetrator much more than those of the victim and so is not neutral. Although an abuser prefers to have you wholeheartedly on his side, he will settle contentedly for your decision to take a middle stance. To him, that means you see the couple's problems as partly her fault and partly his fault, which means it isn't abuse.
In reality, to remain neutral is to collude with the abusive man, whether or not that is your goal. If you are aware of chronic or severe mistreatment and do not speak out against it, your silence communicates implicitly that you see nothing unacceptable taking place. Abusers interpret silence as approval, or at least as forgiveness. To abused women, meanwhile, the silence means that no one will help -- just what her partner wants her to believe. Anyone who chooses to quietly look the other way therefore unwittingly becomes the abuser's ally.
Breaking the silence does not necessarily mean criticizing or confronting the abuser regarding his behavior. It certainly doesn't mean going to him with anything you have learned from her, because the abuser will retaliate against her for talking about his behavior to other people. It does mean telling the abused woman privately that you don't like the way he is treating her and that she doesn't deserve it, no matter what she has done. And if you see or hear violence or threats, it means calling the police.
He goes on to talk about how society goes on to adopt the abuser's perspective; how people give 'accidental support' to the abuser. For example:
|The person who says to the abused woman: "You should show him some compassion even if he has done bad things. Don't forget that he's a human being too."
I have almost never worked with an abused woman who overlooked her partner's humanity. The problem is the reverse: He forgets her humanity. Acknowledging his abusiveness and speaking forcefully and honestly about how he has hurt her is indispensable to her recovery. It is the abuser's perspective that she is being mean to him by speaking bluntly about the damage he has done. To suggest to her that his need for compassion should come before her right to live free from abuse is consistent with the abuser's outlook. I have repeatedly seen the tendency among friends and acquaintances of an abused woman to feel that it is their responsibility to make sure that she realizes what a good person he really is inside -- in other words, to stay focused on his needs rather than on her own, which is a mistake. People who wish to help an abused woman should instead be telling her what a good person she is.