tantrums, "transforming the difficult child"

[kesmith]

I read the " 4-5-6-yo tantrum" thread with interest because, yup,
I've got one of those high needs, sensitive, spirited, challenging,
children myself. The really bad tantrums
started around age 4.5, though she was always HN, and just seemed to get worse (more frequent, more loud, longer lasting, more glass breaking....).

I have to say, I've had major moments of doubting AP, wondering whether I'd created a monster with no self-respect, let alone respect for anyone else. In fact, decided to try a modified version of a new "system" I heard about called "Transforming the difficult child: the nurtured heart approach".
Just curious if any of you mamas of....uh, let's face it....difficult... children
have read this book by Glasser and Easly? How does it fit with your
AP philosophy? I have to say, I've found the sears approach useless lately with my (older) high needs kid, but this book really really rang true for me.

After giving it a lot of thought, I implemented a modified version of the
"credit" system proposed in that book. I was truly amazed at the results!
It's been only 3 weeks, but I feel my daughter has gained tremendously in self-control and self-esteem (which was the main thing I started worrying about). I have been able to be a more detached disciplinarian, which I think
has helped both of us tremendously. (I haven't done the time-outs they discuss).

In a nutshell...the credit system is a major system of bribing the child for
good behaivior (so non-AP, maybe, what do you think?). Each day we tally up her credits earned for things like "cooperating when mom brushes hair" (10 points), "doing chores without complaining" (10 points)
or "treating brother and sister equally," (10 pts)..... I give lots of partial credit and try to focus on everything she did *right* each day. She can then cash her points in for privleges like "mommy maid service," extra treats, trips to the store to buy clothes, extra 15 minutes before lights out, etc. *SHE LOVES THIS!*. It gives us a great opportunity to talk about
values and attitudes in way that seems meaningful and motivating to her.

I'd explain more, but this is already a novel, and I hope I haven't offended anyone's AP sensibilities. I'm really curious if anyone out there her tried
this, or has thought about it, and whether there is some terrible trap I haven't foreseen. This is a pretty blatant bribing system...um, what was
the argument against bribing again? I am truly amazed at the results...
not just that my life as a parent is easier, but that she seems more happy with herself and me, more in control.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[AuntNi]

I say whatever works! If you're happy and she's happy, what's the prob? AP discipline doesn't always work for my very strong-willed, tenacious DD, either. My ultimate goal is to stay ahead of my 3-yo DD's new schemes and raise a respectable member of society. I'm not wed 100% any child-rearing technique.

Good luck!
Nichole

[stafl]

I'm moving this thread to gentle discipline.

From what you describe, it does not sound like a tactic I would ever want to use with my 4yo very spirited DD. What has worked with her as far as tantrums go is to change *my* reaction to her fit-throwing, to change *my* expectations of her, and to not get angry with her and never invalidating her feelings. Things were always much worse when I allowed power struggles to happen, when I thought I should be in control of my child's actions, when I thought her tantrums reflected upon my parenting skills (or lack thereof). Letting go of those ideas is what helped my entire family to express our feelings with words instead of blow-ups, yelling, or violent outbursts.

[Houdini]

I absolutely love this book. I am going to be implementing the credit system starting this summer. I tried to implement this system during the school year, but was not able to commit fully to it. I will homeschooling in the fall and will be able to fully commit to the program. I agree with modifying the system as I don't agree everything the child does being earned through points, so we will be adding our own things to the list.

[bluehalo]

I think this book has a lot of really helpful information. It's so much more than just the credit system. We didn't implement the credit system, but it was *very* helpful to read Glasser's perspective on action/reaction, and how intense children thrive on intense reactions, whether they be "positive" or "negative" reactions. I've heard the "oh, he's just acting out for attention" line before, and it never rang true to me, until I read Glasser's book and his take that it's not just "attention" that the child is craving, but your *energy*. My spirited son is an energetic leech ... and yes, he does feed off of my energy, again, regardless of whether it's in the form of positive or negative. We definitely found the use of very heavy positive reinforcement, to be very helpful for our family.

[kesmith]

credit system

Thanks for all your remarks. It's good to get some validation.
Stafl, I felt similarly when my dd was 4, and in fact, at that age changing my reaction to her tantrums was (usually) enough. But as she got older,
the damage she was capable of doing--to our home, to her siblings,
and to her own self esteem got worse and worse. I was afraid she would seriously injure someone. By age 7, I felt her self esteem was badly eroding because of her lack of self control. I was desperate!
And as the other posters mentioned, the book is about way more than just the credit system. I agreed with the authors' claim that some children get addicted to the negative attention/energy they create with.

Houdini, good luck! The credit system can also be a great homeschooling
device...my dd loves counting up her "money" (actual bills with her picture
photocopied over the prez's), calculating how much per day/long she will have to save to buy a bike for her brother's birthday (I let her trade in 100
credits per day for $1, if it has a designated saving purpose). It's also great for discussing values and attitudes like "being flexible" (10 points), "being
a good conservationist", whatever I also didn't implement it quite the way Glasser suggests....lots of "privledges" are "free" here....especially those like bikeriding that I want to encourage. Also, I haven't done the time outs.
Oddly, it seems just earning the credits is enough for her. She is so proud
in the evenings when we go through and discuss how she did on each of the
items...and can now accurately self-assess for the most part whether she deserves 8 or 10 points on the "being honest" item, for example. It does take some dedication on the parent's part....there have been some rough days when she didn't want to do it anymore, but they passed very quickly
(Glasser's suggestions for handling this were helpful).

[Piglet68]

There are some serious and potentially damaging consequences to using reward systems like this. I think before any parent commits to such a course of action you owe it to yourself and your children to read some of the arguments against them. Alfie Kohn's books "Punished by Rewards" and "The Schools Our Children Deserve" (very important whether you are homeschooling or not) discuss this at length. Maybe you will read the arguments against it and still decide to go ahead with praise/reward methods, but you should do so fully aware of the potential consequences.

In a nutshell, you are conditioning your child to see her behaviour in terms of what she gets out of it. She is not learning about how her behaviour affects others. Her internal motivation is being replaced with an external motivation to view all her actions in terms of what they get her. And when she starts having to choose a course of action she is likely to view it in terms of "what do I want more, to get my way on this issue, or the reward?" and if the answer is the former what do you do - find something she wants even more than points? A TV in her room? A cell phone? A car?...

Think carefully about the message and your goals for her as she gets older...

[girlndocs]

:

Reward systems were great in the short term for Ds ... and a disaster in the longer term.

[bluehalo]

Piglet, and others ... In general, I totally agree with you that using reward systems and bribery can be a potentially damaging, slippery path. I wouldn't recommend using a program like "The Nurtured Heart Approach" with your "average" spirited kid. That said, there are children and families in extreme situations for whom something like "The Nurtured Heart Approach" is likely to be a god-send. It is all about raising the child's self esteem, and sense of self worth, and (IMHO) is such a better alternative than punishment, etc. (Not that anyone here was advocating punishment, but ykwim). It's not the first parenting book I would recommend to *anyone* ... but if you'd read all the commonly recommended PP/AP books (Raising your Spirited Child, Easy to Love..., How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, Kids are Worth It), and are still at your wits end, you bet I'd recommend someone check this out ... because it's likely that the other input they're gonna get is stuff like 123Magic, etc.

Just wanted to throw that out there

[Piglet68]

I certainly understand being at one's "wits end", don't we all as parents?

But can you explain to me how earning rewards raises self-esteem? I'm actually a bit confused how tantrums lower it to begin with (which is the message I got from the OP). But assuming the child does have self-esteem issues....well, I don't get how an external reward granted by someone in authority leads to the child recognizing their own abilities, their worth, etc...Doesn't the very term "SELF-esteem" imply that we are talking about the child's own inner view of their worth?

I agree it is probably better than things like 123Magic. But as Kohn says "spanking your child is infinitely better than shooting them, but that's hardly an argument for spanking".

[mattjule]

I don't think that is necessarily true. I think it is important to look at the long term goal of a method: are you trying to make your child "reward driven" or are you trying to teach your child how to evaluate their behavior and initiate change? We all use rewards, whether they are material or emotional. We all choose behaviors based on how they make us feel. Praise is a reward, I've seen kids who are addicted to praise and will do anything to get it. But you wouldn't stop praising your children when they do something good would you?

I think what these mamas have found is a way to help their children identify their behaviors. The more they are able to identify them at the end of the day, the more they will be able to evaluate them. Once they are able to easily evaluate and identify, they will be able to do it throughout the day, initiating a change where it is needed without an external prompt. At that point they probably won't need the credit system as a parenting tool anymore.

Reward is a fact of life, you do good at your job, you get a raise. You are nice to people, they want to be your friends. Getting rewards makes us feel good and helps us remember what is a good thing to do and what isn't. As long as people aren't rewarding so often that it loses it's potency and the child starts to feel entitled, I don't see what the problem is. It's really the opposite of spanking, rewarding good behavior instead of punishing bad behavior.

There are children that naturally understand things, the cause and effect of their behavior, and that naturally care about others and the environment, etc. For the rest of us with kids that don't naturally understand, we need tools that will help them better than an explanation does. It really doesn't matter to me if anyone believes this, I know it to be true of my children. My oldest still has trouble understanding the effects of his actions (he's 3 yo), but my youngest has, for a while now, really grasped the concept (he's 11 mo).

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by bluehalo

Piglet, and others ... In general, I totally agree with you that using reward systems and bribery can be a potentially damaging, slippery path. I wouldn't recommend using a program like "The Nurtured Heart Approach" with your "average" spirited kid. That said, there are children and families in extreme situations for whom something like "The Nurtured Heart Approach" is likely to be a god-send.

I guess I don't understand this. Are you saying some children who are having more trouble adjusting will do better with a worse choice? It seems to me that the more trouble children are having with finding motivation to "do the right thing", the more they need to learn a way to internally be able to come up with "the right thing".

[bluehalo]

Let me first say that I agree with Piglet that I would certainly recommend reading information on the potential negative aspects of rewards before choosing to take that path. Like so much in parenting, I feel that making *educated choices* really is key. I find it amusing that I’m taking this role in this thread … I’m so not into debate, and I’m not even a “pro-rewards” kinda parent … but I did read this book, and I did see many points of value in it, and my intention in replying to the OP was to share that with her. I agree wholeheartedly that a reward system is not an ideal way to go about manifesting a positive change in my child or my family dynamic, but I’m certainly not going to throw someone off of the AP boat if they feel that it’s right for *their* family.

Originally Posted by Piglet68

But as Kohn says "spanking your child is infinitely better than shooting them, but that's hardly an argument for spanking".

I’m astounded by this analogy of using a rewards system as comparable to shooting your child. This seems beyond extreme to me. I'm guessing it was intended to be so, but still ...

It seems like some of you haven’t read the book in question, so I’ll try to briefly summarize it here. The program consists of several parts which you implement piece by piece, over an extended period of time. The first part is understanding the energetic give and take of the parent/child relationship. He emphasises refusing to engage when dealing with negative behaviors, and remaining nonemotional and consistent. He talks about implementing what he calls “video moments” where the parents simply notices and verbalizes back to the child what he sees the child doing. This is different than the concept of “catching them being good” b/c you aren’t waiting around to actually “catch” them doing something “good” … you’re just noticing, giving them your non-judgmental observations. He gives lots of examples. Then after whatever period of time you’re comfortable moving on, this is followed by adding more overt noticing observations of behaviors that you’d like to reinforce. He also discusses being on the alert to when you notice that your child is really struggling, and complimenting them on the control that they’re demonstrating *before* they go over the edge. After this phase of the program, where you’re really trying to infuse your child with as much energy as possible for “positive” behaviors, he discusses the rewards system. Basically, you have ways to earn points, and ways to spend points. You have a list or chart, and review it daily and “pay” your child for their successes. Points are never taken away, unless the child chooses to “spend” them. The final part of the program is to come up with a comprehensive list of behaviors and their corresponding consequences, and to implement those with the utmost consistency. He recommends that you have a simple, preliminary plan for consequences during the time when you’re initiating the first two parts of the program. He does suggest time outs, which of course is a whole ‘nother hill of beans *lol*. This probably incomplete and disjointed, but I don’t have infinite time to work on this post This should give you a gist of where he’s coming from, anyway.

I think he would argue that he’s giving these children and familes tools to help the children learn the habits of success, and a framework for working within. It’s inherently an artificial structure, absolutely. But I can absolutely see where it could be a jumping off point for families and children that are totally struggling.

Piglet, to try to directly your question:

Originally Posted by Piglet68

But can you explain to me how earning rewards raises self-esteem? I'm actually a bit confused how tantrums lower it to begin with (which is the message I got from the OP).

I don’t think earning rewards directly increases self esteem … as part of the whole approach, I *can* see how being given tools for learning positive habits could increase self esteem. Does that make any more sense? I’m not sure about your question re: the OP and tantrums and self esteem.

[QUOTE=mamazee]Are you saying some children who are having more trouble adjusting will do better with a worse choice? [QUOTE]

I am saying that I don’t know that 100% positive, non-coercive parenting is The One Answer for every child and every family. I'm saying that if you've tried all the PP tricks of the trade, you've been through counselling, and your ADHD/ODD child is still engaging in hurtful or otherwise damaging behavior, yes, I think some parents will feel compelled to look beyond the perceived confines of AP/PP.

I guess I'm just at a point in my life and my parenting where I'm not willing to embrace a "this way or the highway" approach to *anything*. The more I look back over this thread, the more amusing it is that I've invested so much time in trying to write a thoughtful, clarifying reply, b/c I'm not on "the other side", I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm not saying that this is the best way to approach parenting challenging kids. I'm just saying that I think it's a valid approach to look into and try on for size for your family, if you're at that place. And to try to clarify, again, when I mentioned "wits end" in my previous post, I wasn't talking about "had a bad day" kinda of "wits end" ... I was talking about families and kids who are truly in or are approaching crisis situations ... where they feel that every other approach and therapy have failed, ya know?

Eh, I'm likely no longer making sense, if I ever was in the first place! *lol* ... I'm willing to continue this discussion to further clarify my position if necessary, but I'm not interested in debate just for the sake of debating

[Piglet68]

bluehalo, you are totally making sense, and I thank you for taking on this role in this debate b/c I feel like I only really learn things when a good counterpoint can be made to a point, etc...

Oh, and the "shooting your child" analogy was not at all meant to put these techniques on the level of spanking and shooting! the point Kohn was making is saying "well, it's better than doing X" isn't a justification for anything. sorry if that came across wrong!

I wanted to address your comment that we should be flexible in accomodating what works for other families, even if they fall slightly outside our own philosophy. Of course this is true. We can never really know what other familes have tried, or what situation they are facing. With that said, I do feel like a "punishment and reward free" philosophy can acccomodate virtually everybody. I think there is enough 'wriggle room' for solutions to every problem. And I believe this because i feel that rewards and punishment are opposite sides of the same coin, and that coin isn't helpful. i believe it is counterproductive. but of course, each must choose their own, and hopefully this thread will provide thought to whoever is considering using a reward system.

I was thinking about this earlier: what happens when you decide you no longer want to use the "credit system". Is your child suddenly going to be fine with not getting anything for her efforts? I don't see how there can be any motivation for the child to ever live without the reward system, once they've had a taste of it. I see it as simply having to progress as the child gets older. Next it will be allowance they want (money), and as they get older it will be more things....It's like saying you want to raise your children without sugar, but before we start that we're going to eat cake for a week. Once they've had a taste....does this make sense?

[Piglet68]

Originally Posted by mattjule

Praise is a reward, I've seen kids who are addicted to praise and will do anything to get it. But you wouldn't stop praising your children when they do something good would you?

Yes I would and I have, lol. In fact, there are whole threads in this forum about just doing that. I think praising kids sets up just as artificial a motivation as punishment does.

I think what these mamas have found is a way to help their children identify their behaviors.

I agree that identifying them is very important to managing them. But I fail to see how credits and rewards accomplish that. Seems to me they put the child's focus on what hoops to jump through to get their prize, rather than developing an internal system of considering the effects of their actions on others.

At that point they probably won't need the credit system as a parenting tool anymore.

I'm wondering if anybody has any experience with how easily these children dispense with such a system. Do they really go from getting prizes for everything they do, to just happily doing them and getting nothing tangible?

Reward is a fact of life, you do good at your job, you get a raise. You are nice to people, they want to be your friends.

Both punishment and reward are rampant in society, that is true. But for better or for worse? Kohn aruges that these types of things are negative too. Especially in workplaces and schools: dozens of studies show that people who are rewarded this way don't do as well as those who are internally motivated. And the sense of pride and satisfaction one gets from a job well done simply can't be controlled by rewards or punishment.

As long as people aren't rewarding so often that it loses it's potency and the child starts to feel entitled, I don't see what the problem is.

I do agree that kept to a minimum this could be true. I did buy my DD some playdoh after the first time she pooped on her potty, lol. But the OP states that they get credits for everything from brushing teeth to "doing chores without complaining" (this raises red flags for me already: your child isn't allowed to complain about things? maybe she has a different opinion of how things should be done, maybe her suggestions would be good, but this system just blows that away and focuses on "getting credits"). Another poster talked about using such a system to instill "conservationist" values.

It's really the opposite of spanking, rewarding good behavior instead of punishing bad behavior.

I disagree. I think they are just points along the same path. As Kohn says "they are two sides of the same coin, and that coin doesn't buy anything.".

[kesmith]

How can having tantrums at age 7 can lead to trouble with self-esteem? Wow! This seems so clear to me. My daughter *wants* to be "good", wants to do what's right, wants the approval of her friends and parents. Can you imagine how you'd feel if you broke your grandma's giagantic picture window in a fit of rage? Or how you'd feel if the girl across the street you used to play with when you were younger now acts afraid of you after witnessing some of your out-of-control moments? At age 4, even 5, this kind of stuff may not have bothered her, but now she can feel deeply ashamed and reflect on things in a much more mature way. I have *never* used shame as a discipline tool, but I see her feeling this way now, self-imposed. She can see that even her baby brother is able to move on after a disappointment, and it makes her feel lousy.

I have to say, I basically agreed more with what some of the posters are saying about the dangers of rewards when my children were younger. But by the time my high needs daughter was age 7, I finally faced what I'd started suspecting for a year or so, which is that the standard AP approach was not working for us. Which is not to say it wouldn't work with most kids...I am quite sure I'll manage just fine with my other 2 children (high needs next to some people's, but in a completely different league than big sis) by referring back regularly to "How to talk..", "Playful parenting" and the like.

Obviously the credit system is being misunderstood, at least as I have implemented it and as I understood it from Glasser's book. Of course she can complain about doing chores!! And has and surely still will occasionally. But when she doesn't, we can discuss in the evening during the "credit review"..."wow, wasn't that fun tonight cleaning up after dinner together, I really appreciated how quickly we got to work, then had time for a bike ride,"...and she can say "yeah, I think I would deserve 10 points tonight for "doing chores without complaining". She feels recognized, validated, proud of her contribution to the family. What is so bad about that? I have been really really amazed at the "transformation" in her regarding, for example, chores. Not only does she complain less, but she's suddenly doing things I'd thought were too hard for her, like doing her own laundry and taking care of all the recylcing for the family. Happily! *Proudly!!*

Before, I found myself torn between my feeling that it's important for her to learn responsibilty and contribute to the family and how to handle it when, night after night, she just says "No, I don't want to". The credit system gives *her* control over things, and makes me her ally in getting points. For example, if she is late coming down to set the table for dinner, I can remind her "hey, you can set the table and get 10 more points" and if she doesn't want to, she doesn't get the points, *no more said* until credit review time, at which point she can sheepishly remember she'd neglected a chore, but immediately be reminded be how many things she did *right* that day.

I think she is relieved that the rules and expectations are now so clear. No particular behavior is tied to any particular "reward" other than the abstract points, and what is probably more important, the attention and discussion we have regarding all the positive things she's done to earn them. True, she can "buy" things with the points, but she has so many points that this is almost meaningless.

Honestly, a few years ago I never thought I'd be defending such a system. But if any of you other mamas someday find yourself wondering whether your (older) child really needs much more structure and explicit descriptions of what's expected, give Glasser's "the nurtured heart approach" a serious look. I thought long and hard before trying it, and it's by far exceeded my expections in the one month so far we've tried it.

[kesmith]

Regarding how to wean children off a "credit system": I am not really more worried about this than I was about her weaning from the breast or from the family bed. Nor do I have any more idea how it will happen. But just as she happily went to her "own peace" (as she said, meaning bedroom) at age 4.5, or gave up easily nursing by her own accord at age 5.5, I believe she will give up the credit system without fuss when we are both ready.

Although I used to find Kohn's arguments that rewards only make children seek external validation rather than helping them develop self-motivation, this just does not seem to jive with my experience with my *older* child (age 7). I should be clear that I do "get it" for younger kids....I do not think using rewards for things like teaching potty, good eating habits, or basic skills is a good idea.

Still, I am curious about the ominous posting saying only that rewards worked in short run and were disastrous in the long run. Can you fill us in? I'm also curious if any mamas of extremely spirited school age children have any experience with Glassers approach.
Thanks.

[kesmith]

QUOTING PIGLET: "I was thinking about this earlier: what happens when you decide you no longer want to use the "credit system". Is your child suddenly going to be fine with not getting anything for her efforts? I don't see how there can be any motivation for the child to ever live without the reward system, once they've had a taste of it." ENDQUOTE

This sounds like what my mother worried about with the family bed! I think she *will* be getting something for her efforts....the positive self-image that goes along with having self-discipline and healthy habits and patterns of interacting with others. She has already gotten so much self-confidence by just trying to do things (and succeeding!) that before would have resulting in sulking, whining, or screaming. Even if she needs some extra support now as a young very bright but somewhat emotionally disabled child, I don't see why she'd necessarily become permanently addicted to fake pieces of money with her picture on them.

[Piglet68]

kesmith, thanks so much for your thoughtful and detailed replies. My goal in posting was to get people to ask certain questions about reward-systems and controlling behaviours. It's apparent from your replies that you have, indeed, done so thoroughly. My hat goes off to you! I hope I didn't come across too harshly.

And thanks for the explanation re: self-esteem. It was a genuine question - I didn't get it. I do want to ask, however (since I don't have older kids yet and may need to look out for this one day)...if the child was suffering as a result of her tantrums and could see the consequences re: her relationships with friends, etc....why wasn't that enough for her to stop them? I felt reading that (and I don't know your child at all so this is tough) that she must not have been able to stop them. And yet, when there's a reward associated, now she's able to. If you don't mind (because I'm genuinely interested) can you explain further why you think this is so? Why wasn't it enough that "friends were scared of her", and yet getting points made her able to control it?

Thanks.

[kesmith]

Piglet, regarding your question about why the natural consequences of tantrums (eg scaring friends) might not be enough to stop them: one reason, which didn't hit me until I read Glasser's book, is that kids can get addicted to negative patterns of behavior. The credit system for us does not directly address the tantrums, but I think that it has helped her feel better about herself overall, resulting in fewer of them. How does it help her feel better: first, I think it has made expectations clearer and more concrete. Also, It helps to have a that good 20 minute discussion each night ("credit review"), going through the checklist of responsibilities, rules, and attitudes focusing on what she did right each day. I think this has helped her discover some of her strengths (eg, her generousity towards siblings), and made her realize how much I value them. Thirdly,I think the credit system helps me parent more calmy because, my dd fully accepts the penalty (even assigns it herself) of say, earning only 5 out of 10 points for "being respectful" (eg, after a day which included her blowing a raspberry at an elderly neighbor who asked how she was doing) whereas previously, any of my attempts to teach her that this is unacceptable behavior tended to spiral into a worse and worse situation. The credit review gives us a chance to discuss this kind of event calmly later that evening.

So far, we've been at it over a month. I feel it's helping her establish new more positive patterns and habits, and given us a chance to discuss her behaviors and attitudes in a non--threatening and concrete way she seems to understand. Maybe some disaster is still looming, but right now this feels "right" and I am really relieved! I'd still love to hear other's experiences.