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The ped wants us to stop nursing ***UPDATE PG 3***

post #1 of 137
Thread Starter 
Please offer any advice.

Here is our weight gain...

Birth- 10lbs 12oz
2 days- 10lbs 1oz
2 weeks- 10lbs 8oz
4 weeks- 10lbs 12oz
6 weeks- 11lbs 5 oz (after 5 days of supplementing)

The ped says she is not gaining enough weight and we need to quit nursing. I told him I didn't want to do that. But I am having mixed emotions. For one thing this is my 4th baby but the first that I have nursed. So the dynamics of figuring all of this out with so much responsibility is hard. I can't just sit around and nurse all day. The other thing is I am still in excrusiating pain. So much so that I can't keep her on more than about 10-12 min on each side. It is killing me still at 6 weeks. I have had two LC say that her latch is fine but I still feel like something is wrong. She is a pirana. She sucks so hard that her mouth is red and indented when I pry her off. She had never let it go on her own. We have been supplementing a little in the evening when she seems the hungriest for almost a week.

What should I do?
post #2 of 137
I recommend a couple of things -

Rent a hospital grade pump to ensure emptying of the breasts if baby is not adequately doing that. pump after every nursing. this will ensure emptying of the breasts, add additional stimulation to the breasts, and increase supply. You'll need to do this at least for 10 minutes or until you have no more milk coming out (can also pump for at least 5 minutes after last drops of milk to really ensure extra stimulation). Medela or Ameda are two top manufacturers of hospital grade pumps.

Use a SNS or Lact-aid for the supplementation. It consists of a container to hold the supplement and a thin tube to tape to your breast. If you are pumping, you can supplement with as much breastmilk as you can, then formula if there isn't enough breastmilk. Doing it this way also ensures additional stimulation at the breasts. I will admit that it's not easy to get used to using one, but it can be done.

The latch can look okay from the outside but not be so on the inside. Was the LCs you saw board certified? They have more extensive training that the typical hospital LC.

Things that come to mind. Does baby have a high palate? Does baby have a short frenulum? Does baby have a clamp down reflex? Do you have thrush in your nipples (if you have burning, itching or stinging or sharp stabbing pains during bf or between bf, then you probably do) ? All these things can cause pain aside from an inadequate latch.

If baby nurses and clamps down, sometimes over time the baby will outgrow that tendency. I don't have specifics on how to fix the high palate or short frenulum, but an IBCLC would be able to help on that. There are many treatments on thrush, though sometimes it can be tricky. You can do a search on google for treating thrush. You'd have to treat you and your baby because it is commonly passed back and forth. Baby or you may not have any visible symptoms, though baby frequently has white spots in mouth or just a white coat on the tongue can indicate thrush that hasn't overgrown too much to be the spots (but remember formula can also coat the tongue), or yeast diaper rash, or you may have redness/shininess in the nipples, but even without actual visible symptoms ultimately it is very painful for you.

If you are committed to making this work, you can do it, but it may take a little time and money to do so. Though you may be able to be reimbursed by your insurance company or go throught WIC in your state to help out with expenses.

You can get support from your local chapter of LLL. They will have suggestions and can help point you in the right direction.

Big hugs and good luck.
post #3 of 137
Keep trying!

I had to start supplementing due to low supply and weight loss. It's over a year later, I'm still nursing some, and we have a great nursing bond. Yes, he's had to get a lot of formula over the past year, and it's been very frustrating at times, but SOOO worth it in the end.

I second the idea of renting a hospital grade pump and talking more in depth with a LC. I know it's tough with other kids at home. hang in there
post #4 of 137
i say tell the ped to shove it. seriously. give 'em a pink slip. find a decent ped that isn't formula-brainwashed. my son has only gained a pound a month since birth - 10 pounds at birth, a little under 15 pounds now at soon 5 months. that's "failure to thrive" by stupid ped standards. because their charts are made for formula fed babies, by formula companies. they want you to fail to get your money. period.

now, in all fairness, how does your child seem to be developing? temperment is what? if your child seems fine, you do need help with the nursing to be more pleasurable, but that is it. weight means nothing when it is the ONLY symptom. if something needs changing, weight will NOT be the only thing "off," as in the case of my munchkin.
good luck! get a good LC and come here for support from mamas that don't want to see you and your baby not nursing.
post #5 of 137
I second what everyone else has said. You can do it!!! Breastfeeding isnt always easy in the beginning, but it gets better, I promise. I highly recommend finding a good lactation consultant, maybe the next one you try, if you are able to, will be able to give you more and better advice than the 2 you have already seen. I am sure someone else recommended the La Leche League website, but you could probably find a good lactation consultant there and at least get some in person support. I also experienced a lot of nipple pain at the beginning of breastfeeding and found that it was a combination of needing a better latch and also just getting my nipples used to the amount of contact and sucking they were getting. Before long you will develop nipples of steel, :LOL then everything will be golden! Good luck!!
post #6 of 137
Thread Starter 
Thank you so much for your quick replies.

I have a Purely Yours Ameda pump. Will that suffice? I get different amounts at different times. I have not been pumping everytime she nurses though. Usually once or twice a day.

Also everyone who looks at her says her frenulum looks fine. A little close to the tip of her tongue but not too bad.

I am not sure if the LC was board certified. The first one was the hospital LC. and then I called the health dept and they sent one out. But she did not even have a scael so I am not too sure how good she actually is.

I do have red nipples, shooting pains when she's not nursing, and burning shen she is so maybe I do have thrush and she doesn't.

Everything else about the baby says she is fine. She is happy, not dehydrated. Even the ped said that she looked fine.

I really am committed to doing this. I am going to start pumping after every feeding and read up on thrush. And see another LC. I have the name of one who was recommended by my doula.

Is there something I can take to boost my milk supply?

post #7 of 137
I think you do have thrush. You'll need to treat both yourself and baby. Keep nursing though, and make sure to sterilize all your pump parts (Medela microwave bags work great!)

For increasing supply: try Mothers Milk Tea, fenugreek, oatmeal, malt, or ask your doctor for a script for Reglan or domperidone (which you can either get at a compounding pharmacy or order from overseas)
post #8 of 137
You know, with such a high birthweight, maybe the baby's growth is just slowing down to measure "normally." If she'd been a little 7 pounder like mine, the ped wouldn't be freaking out. Just a thought.

I wish birthweight weren't such an influencing factor in deciding whether a baby is "failing to thrive" I second the pp who said weight's ONLY ONE factor in FTT-- if she seems pink and juicy and energetically happy, I'd find a more nursing-friendly ped. With as much experience as you have, I'd trust a mama to know whether her baby was healthy or not.

good luck! I had some pain nursing till around 8 weeks, honestly, but it sounds like an IBCLC could help you out in terms of the pain you're feeling.

ETA: "she" not "he" All babies aren't boys! Duh!
post #9 of 137
Get a new ped. I'm starting to study to become an LC and this is what I know...

*Your baby will drop weight within the first week
*Your baby should be up to (or very close) to birth weight by week 2
*Your baby should gain close to 5-7 oz. each week until baby is 4 weeks old
*Your baby should gain close to 4-5 oz. each week from 4 weeks to 6 weeks

Your baby is very close to this. This is just a suggestion, too. It just gages one aspect of the nourishment. Other things to look for include...

*Wet diapers (5-6+ wet diapers a day)
*Dirty diapers (3+ a day, although some babies will only go 1 time a day or skip days and that is totally normal too)
*Softer breasts after feedings
*Baby content after feedings
*Baby is alert, active, and meeting developmental milestones
*Baby's skin coloring is a normal color

Does this fit your baby? If it does, then you have nothing to worry about. You are the mama. You know your baby. Good luck!


Please keep us posted!

I second the whole thrush thing, but if you need help finding natural remedies, let us know, we'll help you find some!
post #10 of 137
Thread Starter 
You guys are awesome. Thank you for being so supportive.

My midwife called me in a rx of nystantine (sp?) cream but will that even work if I am not treating the baby too? I would prefer to go a natural route rather than a medication route for thrush.

maxwill129 Leah is pretty much normal according to your list. The only thing is she is not satisifed everytime. But she is also 6 weeks and a big baby so she is probably going through a growth spurt. It is frustrating to see her not gain more weight than that, but everything ya'll are saying is true. I am an experienced mama and looking at my baby she is fine. She a lot happier than my VERY high maintenance 17 month old was. She was in a class all of her own.

There are times like tonight when it truly hurt too bad to nurse. So I gave her some formula and pumped. Can I mix EBM with formula? I don't have enough stored up yet to actually only give her EBM but maybe in a few days I will. Sometimes I only get a few drops but like I said I have not been pumping everytime she eats. Hopefully if I do that things will change soon. The pain is wierd. When I am pretty full, it doesn't hurt as bad but if I am not as full then it kills me. And I tend to not fill up as well in the early evening which is when we have been using some formula for the last few days.

Anyway thanks again for letting me ramble on.
post #11 of 137
Originally Posted by 3babiesin2years
You guys are awesome. Thank you for being so supportive.

My midwife called me in a rx of nystantine (sp?) cream but will that even work if I am not treating the baby too? I would prefer to go a natural route rather than a medication route for thrush.
You need to treat BOTH of you. I suffered many rounds of thrush and you do not want to let this go. I gave up doing the whole natural route with thrush after months and months of getting it. It took diflucan to get rid of it. You can try Gentian Violet first.


Check out that link. Make sure you are washing your bras on hot water too.

I agree with the other ladies, keep nursing. You are the mom, you will know if your baby isn't thriving. Sounds like she is doing just fine.
post #12 of 137
I'm learning a lot from this thread, but I'm a little confused. What is the rationale behind pumping in this situation? Isn't the best way to increase supply to nurse on demand until baby is satisfied and cut out all supplementation?

Maybe the reason for pumping is that the thrush is making it too painful to nurse the baby until satisfied every time, or too painful to nurse on demand around the clock right now?

Just curious.....
post #13 of 137
First, good for you to be sticking with it
But six weeks is not the time to supplement. giving your baby a bottle is going to make the latch worst. I mean, can you give the baby the EBM or FF another way? syringe feed or with a cup.
Evening is when mlik supplys are usally low. The end of the day, stress, making dinner, ect. Make sure to drink lots of water in the evening, this really helped me. At six weeks my DD nursed every 45 min for 24 hours. I was exhausted, but it only took one day and my milk was back to meeting her needs. breastfed baby's eat every 2 hours, it is very diffrent from a ff, i have had both. It can feel very demanding.

I had 2 toungue tied babys and I got them clipped. I highly recomend it. my 2nd ds was very "high needs" until I got it clipped at 4 weeks and then he was a diffrent baby, he nursed longer without it hurting for me and he had less gas.
It will get better
Good luck.
post #14 of 137
What is "clipped?" Thx.
post #15 of 137
First off

Then - alot of good info here. I'll add my overview and $.02

treat the thrush -somehow
dump the ped.
dump the formula
get rid of the bottles
get rid of any nipples but yours
nurse as much as she will (yes, I know it hurts- been there )
nurse some more
nurse as long as she will
never pull her off...
if she asks to nurse, nurse
if you think she's hungry, nurse
if she wants to suck, nurse
if you wake up in the middle of the night, nurse
see a theme here?

My dd was a terror to nurse the first month or so- blood blisters, cracked nipples, bleeding nipples, thought the nipples would tear off....

Hang in there! Kudos to you for being willing to stick with it. Sometimes it DOES hurt, but it gets better, I promise.

post #16 of 137
Clipped is to get it cut. The dr cuts the frenulum, with siccors
wow it sounds awful put like this, but really it saved my nursing relationship.
#1 ds bled alot, ds# 2 did not
post #17 of 137
Mama, I don't have any more advice for you, but I just wanted to say good for you for sticking it out! This is a wonderful gift that you are giving your baby. You will never ever be sorry. I had a lot of difficulties nursing my first baby, and I'm sooo glad I hung in there. Good luck!
post #18 of 137
My babe had a similar pattern. My advice is to switch from supplementing w/ formula to supplementing with pumped milk (pump AFTER feedings at the breast), then to gradually cut back the supplements until your babe is 100% on the breast.

I fortunately had a ped who was more supportive of bf'ing. It took three tries of cutting back supplements, but she did start gaining w/o them before 2 mos. I have large nipples (not the areola, the actual nipple) so at first I think she just needed to grow into being able to latch well with the size. I don't think it likely the next baby will have the same prob, DD has sucked my nipples into a more amenable shape since then!

Also, our nursing seemed to improve when I stopped supplementing w/ bottles and used a dropper instead (which the babe thought was a big hassle, as did I). If I could have afforded it, I'd have tried an SNS. (I'd also have consulted an IBCLC).

Nursing w/ supplementing is better than not nursing at all! Your ped needs an education. And from your description, it doesn't sound to me like exclusive bf'ing w/in a few more months is an unreasonable goal for you to have with your babe at this point.

Oh, another thing: Try repeat feeds on the same side, it can help babe get more hindmilk (where most of the fat is). That also helped us. DD was having green mucousy poo from foremilk/hindmilk imbalance at first, and that can cause slow/no weight gain.

And DEFINITELY treat for thrush!!! You can get gentian violet at a regular pharmacy, it's the best stuff. See www.kellymom.com
post #19 of 137
Some other thoughts I've had.

6 weeks is the time for a growth spurt. So baby being hungier and even fussier is normal. I tried to cut down on supplementing during the growth spurt of my E so that the baby/my body could do its job better.

Someone referenced Dr Jay Gordon's website. You can find Grapefruit Seed Extract at your local health/vitamin store. This way you can treat both yourself and baby. I've heard Gentian Violet to be effective but it stains a lot and can get messy. I would probably try the GSE route first, then if it doesn't help things after 3 days, then go the GV route.

Pumping allows any supplementation to be done with more bm than formula. I pump a lot, so that if supplementation is needed, I can do so with bm. If I don't feel baby nursed well, then I pump after feeds. If I have extra time on my hands until the next feed, I'll through extra pumping sessions in at night before my bedtime. If I happen to wake during the night like I did tonight b/c my 19 month old is teething, then I'll pump then too.

I looked up on Ameda's website. Most likely, unless you paid about $700 for your pump, you probably don't have their hospital grade pump. But if yours in an electric double pump, then it's better than a hand pump. A hospital grade pump has extra suctioning power. Some women do fine with lesser models. Or you can rent a hospital grade pump for a month while you are building up your milk supply and then use your own after that.

Yes, you can mix breast milk and formula. The only thing is don't make so much that she doesn't finish the bottle. You want every drop of bm to be in her, not left over in the bottle.

Don't feel bad about using some formula until you can build up a supply of extra ebm. You can do power pumping sessions - 10 minutes on, 10 minutes off if you find you don't have tons of time to pump for as long as you feel like it.

Make sure you are using breast compressions too during nursing and during pumping. That will help the milk to come out faster and help empty the breast.

some websites for help

post #20 of 137

You can do this!

I don't have much time, but I just had to respond. You CAN do this. I struggled with many problems in the beginning, and had EXTREMELY low supply. Even now at almost 10 months BF, I still have low supply issues from time to time.

I second what the other people have said about pumping after each feeding. It will take devotion, and lots of time and effort, but it WILL work. Also let the baby have both breasts each feeding for as long as you can handle the sucking.

The nipple pain will NOT last forever. Trust me.

The main reason I wanted to respond is to tell you about Motherlove More Milk Tinctures. I have to admit that I was skeptical at first, but honestly, it DOES work, and in a BIG way! I could be a spokesperson for this company, I'm so happy with it's products.

I had tried fenugreek pills and tea before, and they worked moderately.

However, the liquid tinctures are what saved my nursing relationship. And now I absolutely adore giving my nursling his "nursies." It's the best feeling in the world.

Here is the direct link to what I use (You can read and see which tincture sounds right for you. I've used the More Milk Plus, the More Milk Plus Alcohol Free, and the More Milk Special Blend.) They are awesome, and worth every penny. Also, there is a great price break if you go ahead and order the bigger size. (For what it's worth, I just took a dose before I came to read on MDC because I have bronchitis and I was worried about it reducing my supply, but with taking this every day, it has not lessened at all.)

The tinctures: (liquid herbal extracts)

Here is their home page as well. They have lots of other good products, too.

And try out another ped, and tell him/her your concerns and reasons for being there.

Good luck. It will all work out.
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