Tonight's incident...

[plein_soleil]

How do you handle this stuff? DS is 3.5, 4 in september.

We just took DS to see a movie (he did quite well) and the theatre is right next to the health food store. I take him there a lot(hfs) and normally when I do, I let him get a tiny bag of 'circles'. (hfs version of m&ms) He already ate yucky popcorn, so I just wanted to go home and fix dinner. He wanted to go in, I said no. He started pulling on the door and sometimes blocking customers. I moved him away from the door.

After a couple minutes, I said we are going to the car, please hold my hand, or I will carry you. Nothing. Ok, I am going to count to 3. If you don't take my hand on 3, I will carry you to the car. (it is raining) I carry him to the car screaming and kicking like a maniac. I get him in the back seat and shut the door, DH is in front and locks the doors. He is like a caged animal in the back, jumping, screaming, and I am in the rain. DH unlocks the doors and lets me in. There is no calming him. I try to get him in the car seat and he takes a huge bite of my arm. He broke the skin, through my coat... (first time for this one) DH is now a maniac which sort of surprised DS. I thought he was actually going to get in the seat. Nope. He caught a second wind. It took both of us getting him in the seat. I sat in front in response to the bite. All the while he is still kicking and screaming that he wants to go back. (I guess to walk from the curb to the car himself).

We get home (5 min thank goodness) and DH unlatches him. He finishes the tantrum and comes in. I have ice on the bite and he is calm enough to talk. We talk about getting angry but it's not ok to hit/kick/bite. He's listening possibly.

Bottom line, it took everything not to smack him one. Especially DH. I know if I had let him get the candy, we would have avoided the whole thing. OR possibly if I had taken him back to the curb to re-walk it. The problem is I am trying to stick to my guns and not give in. My patience is seriously wearing thin. This was probably the worst one ever. They seem to occur once a week, maybe a little less... basically anytime he doesn't get his way. Any suggestions?

[Heffernhyphen]

Oh girl, you did great. I'm sure I would have lost my cool, especially at the onset of pain from the bite. My ds isn't quite 2 yet, so he hasn't mastered the full-blown hairy fit you've described. Oy . . . I dread the day.

All I can offer is that it seems understandable that your boy assumed he'd be getting some "circles" since that was the norm. When his expected treat was denied, he couldn't wrap his mind around the fact that he had already had a treat and was heading home for dinner. All he saw was the injustice. No excuse for a tantrum, but probably the reason nonetheless. My only suggestion would be to try to steer clear of disappointing him in this way in the future. Maybe you could have sent him to the car with DH before heading to the store, or saved the trip for another day when the circles would have been okay. Or maybe let him get the circles but only eat a few now and save the rest for tomorrow. I don't know . . . this parenting gig is HARD!

[EmmaJean]

wow, you did GREAT!!! It's SO hard to keep your cool and not lose it in those times. I'm not here to offer advice, just support for not smacking him after getting bit SO hard. That is probably the hardest times for me not to "hit back". James gets mad and starts hitting or kicking, and sometimes I come really close to hitting him back. But what would that do? It's so hard in those situations to take a step back and just re-evaluate, get a grip, etc. And just like you, I don't want to be "giving in" to his tantrums b/c what would that teach him? Wail enough and I'll negotiate? That's not what I want him to learn, but that's exactly what he gets from Dad. Not to diss dh, but that's how he handles things. I know there are times you can be a perfect parent and have creative solutions to things, but then others it just comes down to "I'm the Mom, you're the kid!"

Anyway, just like Susan said "THIS PARENTING GIG IS HARD!!"

and

[famousmockngbrd]

I agree, from his POV he must have been pretty bummed out about not getting the circles, since that's what you usually do. IME kids this age do NOT do well with not having their expectations met, as I'm sure you've noticed. Did you explain to him why you weren't going to the HFS? I'm not saying that would've helped, but it might have, and even if it didn't it's still a nice thing to do. Did you commiserate with him a little about how much it sucked that he wasn't getting his circles?

Again, from his POV, not only did he not get candy but he was carried against his will like a baby to the car. That must have stung. In light of the particular situation you were in, I don't think it would have hurt to have allowed him to go back to the curb to walk to the car himself, if you think it would have helped. You had already stood firm on the candy, I don't think giving him back that small amount of control over the situation would have made you seem weak willed or anything. But that's if you think it would have helped - with my DS, sometimes it does, sometimes it only seems to make things worse. Then you would have had to carry him to the car all over again. :LOL

I'm really sorry he bit you. You must have been *pissed* about that. You are right, no matter how upset he was that is no excuse for biting you. I admire your and your DH's patience in handling it. The other day DS slapped me hard in the face and it was all I could do not to strike back. It can be really hard to keep your cool in situations like that. You sound like a good mama.

[mamaduck]

We've been through scenes like that with each of our kids, though 1x a week sounds extremely hard! When did this sort of thing start happening?

I agree that you did an admirable job keeping your cool.

I can only think of a couple suggestions to store future reference.
1) Instead of saying "no" in a situation like that, tell him WHEN he will next get what he is asking for. For instance, "We spent our treat money for today on popcorn. We can get circles on Wed. when we come food shopping. Thats in 5 days.

2) Incorporate fantasy while you are rejecting his wishes. "Ooooh, circles! Aren't they the best candy in the whole world? Don't you wish you could have them everyday? Wouldn't it be fun if we could fill a whole room with them??????? We could have the circle room! And eat ourselves sick!!!" And as he is being distracted by building a fantasy, you are walking to the car together....

3) If ia big drawn out tantrum ensues despite your best playful efforts....and you suspect you will be stuck in the car for 20 minutes while he flips out -- then just go ahead and resign yourself to it. Get in the car or somewhere else warm and dry.... and settle in. Sit quietly and let him go berserk. Do only what you have to in order to keep him from hurting himself or you, and wait it out. Even if you are pressed for time, turning it into a power struggle by trying to force him to stop will only draw it out longer. If you feel the need to speak, try to use words that demonstrate you hear his frustration and you understand his feelings.

One of the biggest lessons I still struggle to learn is this: Participating in a fight with my kid will inevitably TAKE LONGER than simply resigning myself to their need for emotional expression, listening to them and waiting it out.

[Piglet68]

I think you did a great job of restraining yourself. And please know that it's so normal to feel like you want to hit back when you get hurt by your kids. I so totally understand!

Now, here's some suggestions for "what I would have done". Please know this is easy for me to say after the fact and it is not meant in any way to be "you screwed up" just "here's what might help next time"...

Okay, so how did you respond when he asked to go to the HFS for treats? Did you just say "no, we're going home for dinner"? Or did you say "well, we had popcorn in the theatre so I think that's enough treats for today". I find the way I phrase things can sometimes help diffuse a tantrum. Sometimes not. It's likely he may have freaked out about it anyways. With the blocking the door thing, etc the first thing I would have done is picked him up physically and found a place to sit down with him (preferably away from the crowds but you can't always find that in a hurry) all the while saying in his ear, or as close as I can get "you're very upset. we're going to sit down for a minute until you catch your breath" or something along those lines. it's not at all punitive, it's in the spirit of "oh you need help". So i would sit down and hold tight all the while talking very calmly and softly "you are so upset. you always get those circles. i know, it's hard when we can't have things we really want." empathy, all the while trying to soothe and bring the intensity down. ride the wave, y'know?

so when he's calmed down a bit, i'd say "we need to go to the car" and immediately if you sense a deep breath before he launches into a screaming "NOOO" you say "would you like to walk or shall I carry you" (now, my Dd likes to be carried when she's upset so that's why I use those choices). or you could say to your son "what can we do to make it easier for you to come to the car".

I would not have engaged in the power struggle you did (that is, assuming I'm not having a bad parenting day, lol). it's heaping one control issue over another. If that didn't work and he just simply was too worked up to make a choice, and if i felt the sitatuation was beyond diffusing right now, I'd just pick him up and carry him to the car, again emitting sympathy/empathy comments (more or less talking, depending on the child's personality). in the car i'd wait until he "got it out of his system". probably not bother with the child restraint until he'd calmed down, since pinning a child in a seat while they are freaking out is a recipe for getting hit or kicked or bit. i would just wait calmly until he got it out of his system.

believe me, i know this isn't always easy. i have screwed up a number of times and it's so easy to review it later and think what I *should* have done. so i'm only trying to give you some ideas for next time, not criticize, kwim?

[Heffernhyphen]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

And please know that it's so normal to feel like you want to hit back when you get hurt by your kids.

I'm so relieved to hear that other good moms feel the reflex to hit on occasion. For me, it is pretty much always in conjunction with him hurting me, even if it's an accidental pinch when he's fighting being put in the carseat and my arm gets mashed by his foot. My instinct is to hit back, and I have to consciously resist it. That always makes me feel like monster mommy. I even go so far as to psychoanalyze myself and blame my mother's parenting. Was I hit? Is that why I feel the urge to hit? : It's probably just an instinct leftover from caveman days when we had to fight for survival. We all have to channel our inner Ghandi.

[PancakeGoddess]

I also felt the reflex to hit, when my oldest was 3. Therapy+meditation worked.
nak sorry for fragments...

my main thought about your story is that a movie theater is very stimulating - a LOT to absorb for a 3yo, so he was probably without reserves, yk?

[mamazee]

Those of us who grew up being spanked are likely to respond to anger with an urge to hit, because that's what we learned. The good news is that by not spanking our kids, they will hopefully not learn to hit in response to things that make them angry.

[EmmaJean]

zee, I sure hope so!! I really want to break the cycle w/ my kids. Not that I was abused in the least, but I don't want them to grow up thinking spanking is normal or necessary like I did. That way when they have their own kids, they can tell their spouses, "I wasn't spanked and look how awesome I turned out!"

[nikirj]

I think you did a marvelous job! I'm also big on not backing down. If they ask me reasonably sometimes I will change my mind (my 5yo is really getting the hang of this now: 'I know you think this movie is boring, but I really like it, and you're cooking anyway, can we PLEASE watch this one?'). If they tantrum, FORGET IT and it is all I can do not to whack them upside the head and throw them in their rooms (seriously. My mom had one hell of a temper on her and I got a big 'ole portion of it). We as parents are individuals and our responses to our children SHOULD be unique. If you can look at your wildly out-of-line, tantrumming baby and feel nothing but an incredible urge to love on her, more power to you; I don't get that. Bless you for responding appropriately and lovingly (in the I love you *no matter what* kind of way that it takes to NOT hit a child when they've really hurt you).

[kavamamakava]

I love these threads. I read and get so much advice and store it in my head for those moments when I really need it.
I think you showed a lot of restraint when at a loss for how to respond. I agree with the suggestions to empathize and be creative (a room full of circles). That helps my kids a lot. Sometimes I feel silly when I'm standing next to a screaming child saying "Oh you're so upset!" Like, Duh, master of the obvious. But I think it really helps them to hear you understand and there's also nothing for them to work off or disagree with to use for fuel to further the tantrum. And then I repeat it over and over and feel even more silly. But it works. I usually add why I think they are upset and also add what I'm doing. Like,
"You're so upset, honey. You're so upset that we aren't getting circles right now. I understand that it upsets you that we can't get them today. But next time we come, they will have circles for us. Wasn't the movie fun?"
Anyway, I just keep talking in a soft voice and keep a steady stream going to help them focus on the calm in my voice.
I also wonder if the popcorn disagreed with him.

Btw, I wasn't spanked and I have a hit back reflex too.

[Dar]

I'd have gotten him the circles. No big deal. Was it really worth all that just to prove to a 3 year old that you're more powerful than he is? He already knows that. How does "sticking to your guns" fit in with teaching your children how to work out problems through discussion, collaboration, or compromise?

It was a two minute, less than a buck thing and he was already probably a bit out of sorts... it was not worth provoking a meltdown, IMO.

I think sticking to your guns is way overrated. What if everyone in the world stuck to their guns? We'd never get anywhere. Why not model graciously changing your mind - not in a "I'm afraid of your tantrums so I'll do what you want", or a "Grudging, "Okay, FINE" way, but in a pleasant, "Oh, I didn't realize that it was so important to you - sure, let's go do it" way.

I agree with the "You wish you could... boy, wouldn't it be great if..." stuff for things that really would be inconvenient, like staying to watch the movie again, but not for little stuff...

The more I was able to let go of unnecessary power struggles, the less impulse I had to hit, FWIW...

Dar

[nikirj]

Hey Dar, I kind of agree with you and I kind of don't.

My kids know I can be negotiated with. This is way different from throwing a full-blown, yelling, hurting-people tantrum. WAY different. Two whole sets of rules different. I'm happy to listen to a child tell me they are really dissappointed, and I will probably change my mind. If I can avoid the situation in the first place (as in, if the child asks and I know it is a big deal for them but not for me) I will. But sometimes these things blind-side you, and these are the times that I really believe (sounding awful here I know) that kids learn where the limits REALLY are. My kids know that I will reconsider a decision if they're calm about it but not if they start yelling because we've been down that path before and they know where it goes.

I am all for 'giving in' beforehand, before it becomes a big issue. But once it is an issue, I'll exceedingly rarely give them their way in the matter, just because *I* think they need to know that their behavior is unacceptable.

I've had perhaps three tantrums with DD, a few more for DS. We talk about it afterwards and try to re-enact certain things (like how they could have asked mama better, something better to do than scream, trying to put themselves in mama's place and see how mama was hurting and really needed to just go home), and I think that this really helps.

[famousmockngbrd]

Originally Posted by Dar

Was it really worth all that just to prove to a 3 year old that you're more powerful than he is? He already knows that.

If it was just to prove that she is more powerful than he is, then I agree, but I didn't get that from her post. It sounded like she had valid reasons for not wanting to stop and get the circles.

I agree that "sticking to your guns" is not always what it's cracked up to be - nobody wants to be rigid, inflexible, authoritarian, etc. But it works both ways - sometimes things are important to us as parents, too, and kids need to respect that, just as we respect it for them.

[BusyMommy]

If my kids ask me reasonably about a decision, I may change my mind. But, if they scream, I'm not going to back down in response to their tantrum. My oldest has just started having tantrums for the first time in his life. He's 4.5. I know why, lots of transitions here, but I am really conscious that I have to choose my battles. IF it is important, really important, then NO I will not back down. If it's not important than I will avoid the confrontation/ultimatum situation.

Participating in a fight with my kid will inevitably TAKE LONGER than simply resigning myself to their need for emotional expression, listening to them and waiting it out.

I totally absolutely agree! I give him a kiss and tell him I'm sorry he's sad and then I give him his space until he's calm.

[oceanbaby]

My kids know I can be negotiated with. This is way different from throwing a full-blown, yelling, hurting-people tantrum. WAY different. Two whole sets of rules different. I'm happy to listen to a child tell me they are really dissappointed, and I will probably change my mind. If I can avoid the situation in the first place (as in, if the child asks and I know it is a big deal for them but not for me) I will. But sometimes these things blind-side you, and these are the times that I really believe (sounding awful here I know) that kids learn where the limits REALLY are. My kids know that I will reconsider a decision if they're calm about it but not if they start yelling because we've been down that path before and they know where it goes.

[quakerlady]

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen

All I can offer is that it seems understandable that your boy assumed he'd be getting some "circles" since that was the norm. When his expected treat was denied, he couldn't wrap his mind around the fact that he had already had a treat and was heading home for dinner. All he saw was the injustice. No excuse for a tantrum, but probably the reason nonetheless. My only suggestion would be to try to steer clear of disappointing him in this way in the future.

Okay, I can see that this makes the tantrum UNDERSTANDABLE, but not ACCEPTABLE. I don't think mom should have to plan for every possible disappointment and plan around it, try to read his mind and guess what will upset him and make it not happen.
I am having similar issues w/ my daughter, who will turn 5 in October. So have several parents in our co-op preschool class. (Thank god, or I would be thinking there was something wrong with me or her. Actually the thought still crosses my mind after particularly bad tantrums.)
I have a lot of trouble staying calm, patient and understanding with a tantrum at this age- my 2 year old? fine. She's not totally verbal yet, far less control of her emotions- but an almost 5? But apparently it is par for the course according to the parents I've asked with older kids. They are going through an emotional growth stage, have fairly undeveloped but newly strong ideas of what is fair and what they have the power to affect.
I have found that when I have the energy and peace of mind myself to project love towards her we get through it with less pain on my part and a slightly shorter tantrum length on her part. I think the tantrums ar going to happen, and the parent just has to show in a way that is natural to them that it is unnacceptable.

[irinam]

I am trying to analyze the OP and some PP's...

So a 3.5 yo watched a full movie. Judging by "he did rather well" and just by mere age - it was a big strain for him. Then what in his mind was a normal way things suppose to be (getting circles when near the store) did not happen, he tried to insist. Then, he was carried to the car (as I gathered against his will). Then he was restrained in a car seat.

And the expectation of some PP's here is that he could just have "calmly negotiated" after that? Or that the tantrum that followed was completely unexpected and required parents to be "mind readers"?

I am not in any way critisizing the OP - we've all been in situations when we had to do... well, what we had to do, and great for her and her DH for restraining themselves. I am just surprised at some of the responces

[cmb123]

Originally Posted by Dar

I'd have gotten him the circles. No big deal. Was it really worth all that just to prove to a 3 year old that you're more powerful than he is? He already knows that. How does "sticking to your guns" fit in with teaching your children how to work out problems through discussion, collaboration, or compromise?

This sentiment is NOT the impression I got from the OP at all. I think once the big tantrum started, she wasn't going to turn around and take him to the store for some candy because he threw a fit. Honestly, I wouldn't either.
I definately am all for "changing my mind" if I see something is more important to them than I thought, I'm all for not sweating the small stuff...BUT there is no way in heck I am taking a kid that just bit me so hard he ripped my coat in to the store for a treat!
Hindsight is always 20/20. Yeah, ya coulda just gotten the treat, or let him walk the curb, but it didn't happen that way. Your reaction to the biting and tantrum were excellent. You said this happens only when he doesn't get what he wants..once a week or less? If he only doesn't get what he wants once a week or less...ya know what...a little reality check here and there 'aint gonna kill him. Real life isn't like that. You often don't get exactly what you want less than once a week! KWIM?

Just a side note...I personally think 3.5 is way too young for a movie, that whole thing may have just been to much for him overall, and overstimulated him (I doubt a bag of candy would have helped). Obviously JMO, but I had to say it