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Tonight's incident... - Page 2  

post #21 of 35
re: negotiation when the child has had a kicking/screaming tantrum vs when asking nicely ...

As I mentioned before, I don't know the OP's kid, but if I'd taken my 3yo to a loud movie theater and then he had a tantrum, I'd take a lot of the responsibility for that tantrum myself. Please don't take this as a criticism about the movie - I would do the same thing - I don't think it was a bad choice at all - but those kinds of outings do have consequences to young senses.

I'm agreeing with Dar, here. If my 8-10yo had a fit over candy after a movie, I'd probably stick with my no, but this is a very wee kiddo.
post #22 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmb123
You said this happens only when he doesn't get what he wants..once a week or less? If he only doesn't get what he wants once a week or less...ya know what...a little reality check here and there 'aint gonna kill him. Real life isn't like that. You often don't get exactly what you want less than once a week! KWIM?
If I do understand what you mean, then I think it's a great point. It seems to me that the difference between the parents in this community and our parents, or at least my own, is that we are MUCH more thoughtful about parenting; we actually take the time to think through our actions, our philosophies, our goals, and even our kids inner workings. I can pretty safely say that my mother's only thought with three kids in the sixties was how to get to the end of each day with no bloodshed. Seriously, the idea of her taking into consideration how I would feel at any given time . . . :LOL We just did what we were told until we were old enough to rebel (my sister), retreat (my brother) or move far, far away (me). But I digress . . . .

Your point here, I think, is that our ultimate goal in parenting is not controlling the moment, but teaching our kids lessons for life. The overall lesson of the OP's situation is probably one of how to act to get along in society . . . we can't throw ugly hissy fits and expect to get our way. But I like your lesson, too . . . sometimes no matter how we act, we still don't get our way. That's just life. I don't get to look like Selma Hyack and you don't get your friggin circles every time we pass the store. Get over it!
post #23 of 35
Thread Starter 
Well, thanks everyone for your replies and food for thought. I always forget about the 'fantasy' scenarios. I'll give that a try. If I can find a way to distract, I can often diffuse these.

If I had not carried him to the car, it would not have been so bad, but at that point, I didn't feel I had a choice. Returning him to the curb may have worked, thus letting him do it 'himself', however this is a bad parking lot, and a bad storefront. I didn't want to take chances with him bolting in the rain. If I had stood underneath the store shelter while he freaked in the car, I probably would have saved myself the bite... I also worry about him jumping around and thrashing around in the car by himself...

As for the circles, I went through the 'I know you really want them' stuff, and I told him we had some at home, which he could have 'later'. That wasn't good enough, and he started; blocking our path to the car, obstructing other customers coming to and from the store, and others in the strip, etc.

DS is very regimented. He wants things done the same way all the time. I don't want to have to buy him something or do something every time one of his triggers goes off. In other words, I don't think I should have to buy circles every time I set foot in this strip mall. (If we are going to the hfs, fine, we'll get some.) Heck, I am finally past the issues of turning left to get gas (because today we need it) instead of right, to go home!

Again, thanks. This has been an interesting thread.
post #24 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmb123
I definately am all for "changing my mind" if I see something is more important to them than I thought, I'm all for not sweating the small stuff...BUT there is no way in heck I am taking a kid that just bit me so hard he ripped my coat in to the store for a treat!
There were lots of opportunities to change her mind before then. He wanted to, she said no. He started pulling the door, she moved him away, and then a couple of minutes later she told him they were going to the car and he had the count of three to come and hold her hand or he would be carried. Up until that point all he has done is grab at the door and refuse to walk to the car. I don't it at all surprising that he lost it, really. I didn't hear the OP make any attempt to validate his feelings, or negotiate a solution, and then she insisted on going to the car when he was clearly still upset, and when he refused she got physical, rather than waiting him out a bit. Alfie writes about a situation in Unconditional Parenting when he ends up just sitting on the curb with his child and waiting for her, and I've done that quite a few times myself. There are very few siutautions where waiting another ten or fifteen minutes is a huge hardship - so dinner's a little late, whatever. It's better than provoking a meltdown, IMO.

The focus of "sticking to her guns and not give in" is from the OP, and I think that kind of a goal will backfire, if what you're really looking for is a harmonious, cooperative relationship with your child. I think our society sends the wrong message to parents about this, and tells parents it is about "winning", and your child is the adversary. It's not about that at all.

And truly, I don;t think a "tiny bag" of health food store candy would have spoiled dinner or had a negative impact on his behavior, especially comapred to the impact of refusing to get the candy.

Dar
post #25 of 35
I just wanted to add to this discussion that I agree with the other posters that your son might have just been really stimulated (or over-stimulated) by the movie and might have had a tantrum no matter whether you got him the circles or not. Even if he really enjoyed the movie, sometimes kids just need to freak out after those kinds of experiences. My 4 yo daughter breaks down emotionally after any kind of activity or event where she has to control herself. This includes play dates, preschool, and other events like plays or concerts (she almost always behaves wonderfully durring the experience, however). I now expect it and do what I can to help her through it and learn how to handle it. My theory is that she is reacting to the adrenalin (sp?) and endorphins (sp?) leaving her body. I think its great to analize what happened and many posters have given great advise, but I'm not sure that anything you did or didn't do could have avoided his tantrum. Just my opinion!
post #26 of 35
Quote:
All I can offer is that it seems understandable that your boy assumed he'd be getting some "circles" since that was the norm. When his expected treat was denied, he couldn't wrap his mind around the fact that he had already had a treat and was heading home for dinner. All he saw was the injustice.
I agree. In this situation I don't think "sticking to your guns" was the right approach. There are situations where I stick to my decision. Usually when I am being nagged to buy something, which is everyday whenever we are out. It's like there is no end. However, I feel that this situation was totally different. He's 3 and in his mind the HFS=treat. No matter what, because that is the norm. When he started pulling at the door is when I would have given in, to a degree. I would have said "yes, I will take you in for your treat...however, you can only have a couple because we just had popcorn. We can save the rest for tomorrow", something like that anyway. Only because it has become a ritual with the two of you. I would have taken most of them out of the bag and handed the bag to him with only a few treats in it.

I usually stick to my no's, however there are times when it's not reasonable of me.

I do want to give you a pat on the back for your composure. Once you reached the car there was no turning back, and you handled it very well. So did your dh. I know there are times when it's hard and every nerve has come unraveled. It happens to me all the time. You should be very proud of yourself.
post #27 of 35
What jumps out at me is he had a huge tantrum right after having "yucky popcorn" full of yellow dye. The tantrum you described sounds like a physical reaction to the artificial chemicals he ate- based on my own experience with my dd and the Feingold Program. I bet the tantrum wouldn't have been quite as intense or long-lasting if he hadn't eaten the popcorn. Sounds like your dh might have been reacting to the food dye as well!!

Overall, I think you handled it well. Maybe next time, you can plan on going to the HFS on the way TO the movies to buy circles, rather than getting the popcorn from the theater. Then, on the way out, "you already had circles today. You can get more next time."
post #28 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
The focus of "sticking to her guns and not give in" is from the OP, and I think that kind of a goal will backfire, if what you're really looking for is a harmonious, cooperative relationship with your child. I think our society sends the wrong message to parents about this, and tells parents it is about "winning", and your child is the adversary. It's not about that at all.
I don't think OP mama was trying to "win". I think she was trying to parent. Why does the three-year-old get to decide if now is a good time for candy? I hope I never hear myself use these words, but I do think sometimes Because I'm The Mom is good enough. He's three; his feelings and expectations don't trump her authority. She shouldn't be held hostage by a tiny tyrant.

I think the objective of sticking to one's guns is to create consistency, which is important in discipline. Well, maybe today no doesn't really mean no, so I'll just give it a good show and see what I get out of her. :
post #29 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen
I don't think OP mama was trying to "win". I think she was trying to parent. Why does the three-year-old get to decide if now is a good time for candy? I hope I never hear myself use these words, but I do think sometimes Because I'm The Mom is good enough. He's three; his feelings and expectations don't trump her authority. She shouldn't be held hostage by a tiny tyrant.
I think the objective of sticking to one's guns is to create consistency, which is important in discipline.
Sounds like her DS was after consistency, which was to get his treat at the HFS. Not sure that I would say insisting on that in a 3 yr old way is being a tiny tyrant, because that certainly sounds like, 1) not a nice relationship to have with your child (thinking of your kids that way, and 2) very adversarial.
post #30 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
There are very few siutautions where waiting another ten or fifteen minutes is a huge hardship - so dinner's a little late, whatever. It's better than provoking a meltdown, IMO.
I absolutely agree with waiting it out etc...I often do that myself, but I still wouldn't have gone to get the candy. My kids can be disappointed, sad, angry at a decision I've made... they are entitled to thier feelings. I'm not the kind of parent who gives in to every whim my children have just for the sake of keeping the peace, or saving them from disappointment.
There are lots and lots of opportunities for negotiation in my family, but not every time. Sometimes I get the executive decision. I don't think my children at at 3.5 ( or now yet) have the same life experience and knowledge I do, to always make the best choices for themselves or our family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
And truly, I don;t think a "tiny bag" of health food store candy would have spoiled dinner or had a negative impact on his behavior, especially comapred to the impact of refusing to get the candy.
For my kids (and me actually) adding sugar and chocolate to an already over-stimulated tantruming child ABSOLUTELY make things worse.
Plus from the sounds of it, he probably would have gotten the candy, THEN thrown a fit about something else...I don't think it was REALLY about the candy. KWIM?
post #31 of 35
Don't forget that it was raining and even if it wasn't, that they were in a strip mall - which means a narrow sidewalk with no place to sit or even stand to talk without blocking other people. That narrows her options.

ETA: I do agree with many of the observations about why he got so upset (although biting to draw blood because of some candy? Whew! He must have been overwhelmed.) I also disagree with calling him a "little tyrant" - he certainly was NOT acting like a tyrant.
post #32 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmb123
I absolutely agree with waiting it out etc...I often do that myself, but I still wouldn't have gone to get the candy. My kids can be disappointed, sad, angry at a decision I've made... they are entitled to thier feelings. I'm not the kind of parent who gives in to every whim my children have just for the sake of keeping the peace, or saving them from disappointment.
There are lots and lots of opportunities for negotiation in my family, but not every time. Sometimes I get the executive decision. I don't think my children at at 3.5 ( or now yet) have the same life experience and knowledge I do, to always make the best choices for themselves or our family.
I TOTALLY agree with that!!! Was going to post some similar thoughts, but I'll just say a BIG ditto!
post #33 of 35
I don't always make the best choices either, and I'm (supposedly) a grown-up.

I'm not sure how a kid is supposed to learn to make good choices if they are not allowed to make choices.

This is really in response to some PPs, not the OP. What I would have done in that situation depends on the day, probably...at this point I'm rather inconsistent.

But I agree w/Dar here....maybe because I just read Unconditional Parenting, but still. I am really trying to put myself in my DD's place during the day, and it doesn't look fun sometimes.
post #34 of 35
One thing I try to make sure I do if we are going someplace where something regular takes place, i.e. getting circles at the HFS, and it is NOT going to happen this time, is make sure I say something prior to ever leaving the house. For example, We are going to the movies. The theater is next to the HFS. I know you like going in there but because we will already be pressed for time after the movie, we can't go in this time. But, I am planning on going on X day.

I usually do not get asked. My oldest, 8.5 years, does sometimes ask just to see if perhaps I am up to negotiation. But, they often just let it slide knowing the next time we are going. We have been to the movies once before. I was on very limited funds. I let them know before setting out that we would NOT be buying anything at the movies. We would have drinks and snacks in the car for afterwards. They picked out those items from choices we had at home. It saved a lot of hassles in the theater.

I understand there are times when they want things, when they are overwhelmed, etc. But there are also times when I have to stand my ground. But, I have found that if they are prepared with all the information they need to make a decision prior to be right in the middle of something, we all do better.

I have found myself in the middle of such tantrums for whatever reason (preparation does not always work, especially for my oldest), I make sure we are someplace where no one can be hurt. Often, that means a locked car. I sit quietly in front and let the upset child cool off some in the back. I repeat often if they need me, they can come get in my lap. Once they have burnt up some energy, they usually do come snuggle. Then, when they are ready, I put them in their carseat. If I am alone with both girls, it gets more complicated. It is hard not to exclude the calm child but in turn no pay her too much attention and add fuel to the fire. I have found that if I try to "force" myself physically or verbally on the upset girl, it makes matters worse. I may physically remove the child to a safe location but then, I try to give them space making it clear I am here if they need me. My oldest usually wants me sooner, though it has been a long time since she has had a full-on tantrum. My youngest will scream it out alone longer but then want to snuggle longer afterward too. I also try to make sure that they do not feel wrong by what they are doing but I do try to talk with them later to let them know they are more appropriate ways to make their "argument" about what they want. And, now, with my oldest, we discuss what she might do differently to be more effective. She is learning. She can tell when I am open for negotiation more and more.
post #35 of 35
First, I want to join all the folks who congratulated you on not hitting back.

Second, I think I probably would have gone to the hfs before the movie to get the circles instead of buying popcorn. That way, no conflict after the movie. The trick is to anticipate that the proximity to the hfs is going to make him think of this treat.

I know my ds (who is 28 months) likes to do things the same way every time. For example, we went to visit friends who have a big playground by their house. But it was raining, and it was too slippery for him to climb. But we had played on the play structure the last two visits! So he was upset. I had to say no, that time. It sucks to say no when you totally understand what they want and why they want it. There is a special pleasure in ritual repetition. Anyway, it wasn't as heavy a tantrum as you described, because he had just had a nap, hadn't been to a movie, hadn't had potentially toxic popcorn (!!!) and all that.
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