how can someone who was trained as a behaviorist...

[AdoptChina]

switch over to GD? I have a degree in psychology and most of what I was taught falls under the behaviorist heading....in addition to that, my parents parenting of me followed the same ideas....

so, how would I go about using GD fo rmy children? It just seems so against what comes naturally to me.....but I do see the value in it (most of it at least)

any suggestions?
thanks

[aran]

I just finished reading the book Parent Effectiveness Training by Thomas Gordon. He seems to be a behaviorist, and made very compelling arguments why not to use punishments or rewards. The book has lots of very specific advice for talking to kids and problem solving together with kids. The book is based on a course Gordon started teaching in the early 60's, so some of the language and sample dialogue is dated, but I found it very useful, very GD oriented, but (I think) it basically comes from a behaviorist standpoint. (I am in the natural sciences though, so I am not sure I am 100% certain of the hallmarks of behaviorism... I just know that the author discussed everything in terms of behaviors).

[AdoptChina]

thanks...I may actually have that book buried in a pile of school books in the basement lol.....the title sounds familiar

I guess all the post on unconditional parenting have me questioning whether or not this is something I want to do with my kids...

[Piglet68]

gordon, like kohn, is anti-behaviourist. behaviorist meaning BF Skinner et al.

adoptchina: get your hands on some Kohn - either his recent "unconditional parenting" or his older book "the schools our children deserve". he lists key researchers on both sides and you could then go search the authors in medline or your fave psychology reference resource. i'd look it up but i have a very tired, wriggling, 23 lb baby in my lap!

[AngelBee]

What exactly is a behaviorist? :

[Silliest]

I'm not a "trained" anything ;-p But I did take lots of psych classes in college and I was definitely raised with the carrot and the stick... heavy on the stick.

I have found great value in reading most of my parenting books at least twice.

First I read from my-perspective-as-a-child and trying to remember how *I* felt when certain traditional methods were used on me, and trying to imagine how *I* would feel if GD methods had been used in various circumstances... kind of re-parenting myself to some degree.

Then I re-read from my-perspective-as-a-parent to try to figure out how I can implement the stuff with my kids. My partner and I are trying to "spot" each other, and GD each other as well. We had a great discussion the other day about how he felt manipulated in a particular decision because every time he said one thing, I'd drip-feed him one more data-point in support of "my" decision until he finally came around to my POV. He felt that if I'd presented my case up front, it would have been less objectionable. That would've been great if I'd been able to *assemble* my whole case up front <LOL!> I really only thought of some of the points after we'd been discussing it a while, but the idea was there, anyway.

The most valuable thing for me has been the simple knowledge that behaviorism *does not work*, so when I am tempted to use it...kinda like when I am tempted to buy something off the shop-at-home-network <LOL!>

I can remind myself that yeah it *seems* like a good idea, and I might get some instant gratification, but in the long run, punishing/rewarding is just going to be another obstacle to clear away, not actual progress in any way.

Of course that sounds good on paper, but in reality, I'm still not doing all that well.

Everyone woke up grumpy today, the weather has cancelled our plans to go out today, it's hot, muggy, dreary, and *everyone* is grumpy... so I dunno how today is going to go. But I'm trying.

[Dar]

Alfie Kohn actually spent a lot of time talking with Skinner, and he discusses this in Punished by Rewards.

I think it's a goal-shifting thing. Do I want my child doing things because she's been behaviorally trained to do so, like a dog or a pigeon, or do I want to discipline in ways that address larger issues, like morality and being a good person? I think it's interesting that behavioralism is all at the level of Kohlberg's Stage 1 of Moral Development. GD addresses much higher levels of morality.

Dar

[nikirj]

Originally Posted by Dar

I think it's a goal-shifting thing. Do I want my child doing things because she's been behaviorally trained to do so, like a dog or a pigeon, or do I want to discipline in ways that address larger issues, like morality and being a good person? I think it's interesting that behavioralism is all at the level of Kohlberg's Stage 1 of Moral Development. GD addresses much higher levels of morality.

Dar

This is EXACTLY it. This is why I can take all the stuff I've learned about behavioral training and toss it out - because I don't want to 'train' my kids to 'react' like that. It was never a goal so I have never felt the need to think like that.

[IncaMama]

i think that the behavior modification approach can be a very effective short-term strategy, but i do agree that it doesn't really cultivate a longer lasting *self* disciplined child/adolescent/adult. i agree with your link to kohlberg's first stage of morality...it gets the job done (i.e., jimmy doesn't steal) but it doesn't take care of the "Why" and in more complex situations (like that presented in the classic Kohlberg Heinz dilemma) the child/adolescent/adult is left with very little rationale to go on other than a black/white right/wrong. it's not as useful in the long run, whereas the strategies most often associated with GD are not meant to be short term...they are meant to be long term. they're probably more difficult to adhere to in the short term, from the parents' perspective..because they take more creativity, more patience, more "thoughtfulness" on the part of the parents...but i do believe that the long term rewards are much greater than in the more classic "conditioning" or behavioral training.

just my thoughts...from an undergrad psych major, former behaviorist, and current doctoral student in human development.

[girlndocs]

Originally Posted by Dar

Do I want my child doing things because she's been behaviorally trained to do so, like a dog or a pigeon, or do I want to discipline in ways that address larger issues, like morality and being a good person?

: And what happens when my child is no longer constrained by the "training" framework I have constructed?

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by girlndocs

And what happens when my child is no longer constrained by the "training" framework I have constructed?

I believe they call that "Freshman Year" at college.

[AdoptChina]

thanks for all the replies
I think I'll go to the library and check out some books!

[Silliest]

Originally Posted by girlndocs
And what happens when my child is no longer constrained by the "training" framework I have constructed?

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I believe they call that "Freshman Year" at college.

<shudder>

My own memories of my freshman year would tend to indicate that "giving kids a moral framework" doesn't happen very often... I think one of the most often-heard phrases was "Yeah, dad always said "Not under *my* roof", and now I'm not!"

[aran]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

gordon, like kohn, is anti-behaviourist. behaviorist meaning BF Skinner et al.

I strongly disagree that Gordon is antibehaviorist. The whole basis of his PET book is recognizing behavior types and acting in a way to encourage acceptable behaviors. The book is riddled with figures of his "behavior window" and he actually states that you cannot accept a child independently of acceptance of that child's behavior. Quotes from the book include, "What is the child if it is not the 'behaving child'... It is a behaving child toward whom a parent has feelings." "It is best for you to admit to yourself (and to the child) that you don't accept her as a person when she is doing or saying something in a particular way at a particular moment." He clearly demonstrates that he sees the child as a collection of behaviors.

Gordon also describes rat behavior studies as a basis for several recommendations. For example, he describes how researchers made rats neurotic by being inconsistent in rewarding their behavior (correctly identifying shapes). That was one of his lines of reasoning for why rewards aren't useful. I think you'd be hard pressed to find Kohn using rat behavior studies as a basis for making recommendations about humans.

I was surprised that someone so focused on behavior rather than motivation would present techniques so in accord with Kohn's anti-behaviorism. However, I think Gordon makes the recommendations based on pragmatism (i.e., they work) and Kohn makes them on principle (i.e., they're intrinsically right).

AdoptChina - if you read the book, tell me what you think, since this is your area of expertise.

ETA: I think Gordon's book would be really good for teenagers. Kohn's Uncond. Parenting would be good too, but is heavy on inspiration, while light on technique, IMO.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by Chunklin'sMommy

He clearly demonstrates that he sees the child as a collection of behaviors.

But this has nothing to do with behavioralism itself. Behavioralism is about shaping behavior through adding or subtracting punishments and rewards. "Accepting" certain behaviors really has nothing to do with behavioralism; it's about hiow you attempt to extinguish those behaviors.

Dar

[aran]

Revisiting courses I took, and Googling definitions of behaviorism on the web, I found that behaviorism is a school of thought in psychology that behavior is the only aspect of humans worth studying. Given this understanding, I believe that Gordon's exclusive focus on behavior puts him squarely in this camp.

The definition of behaviorism you give, Dar, is different than what I understand behaviorism to be. If your definition were right, then I'd agree that Gordon is not a behaviorist. Gordon seeks to maximize acceptable behaviors, but his methods don't include punishment or rewards.

[Piglet68]

Thanks, Dar. I was reading Chucklin's post and thinking "wow, I only just read the book last month, have I forgotten that much of it already?"

But yeah, that's what I was meaning - behaviourism in the concept of rewards and punishment. Gordon advocates using neither, as does Kohn. My understanding of behaviourism is using postive and negative reinforcements to shape behaviours. In humans I believe this is engaging the more primitive 'Self-preservation" regions of the brain (limbic), rather than the higher, "newer" parts (cortical) involved in processing, logic, reason, and regulation of emotions.

[Dar]

Well, behavioralism is concerned only with the behaviors, not the reasons behind them, so I guess it's the application of behavioralism that would be rewards and punishments. I think maximizing certain behaviors and minimizing others is a goal of most, if not all, parenting philosophies, although sometimes it's a secondary or tertiary goal. So, I want my child to help out around the house, but I want her to do it because she feels like a competent person and she feels a responsibility towards our family, not because I'll yell at her or dock her allowance if she doesn't, and not because I'll pay her a buck or praise her if she does. It's the same outward behavior, though...

From what I've read, Gordon focuses almost reclusively on the reasons behind behaviors, making him not a behavioralist, but a cognitively-based practitioner.

Dar

[robinkate]

AdoptChina,

I'm not sure if I understood your post correctly since behaviorism can be used in a narrow or broad sense. I was a psychology major as well, and what I took away from it was many different techniques for handling behaviors not all of which focus on consequences. Behavior management is something all parents do, of course. GD in my understanding of it focuses more on the cognitive aspect, telling the child what is expected in a certain situation and talking to the child after they do something (rather than imposing a negative consequence). Also, you can focus on how the situation is set up to encourage positive behavior - if your child is having trouble hitting, talking to them before the playdate, close supervision during, making sure they are fed and rested, those can all be part of a behavior plan. I'm just thinking that in making the switch from pure rewards and consequences behaviorism, probably the best thing is to have a well thought out plan for different behaviors that come up. Hope I am addressing your question with this!

[AdoptChina]

my initial question wasn't exactly what I meant (I followed it up with a second question).....it wasn't so much GD that I was wondering about...it was more the unconditional parenting I was looking into

sorry if I sound a bit scatterbrained...I had thyroid surgery and still haven't recovered completely (pain makes it hard to form complete thoughts lol)


(I actually think I do practice GD to an extent...not b/c Ive read about it but b/c it just feels like the right thing to do...kwim? Im just trying to figure out how to go from using things like time outs (only for the older kids), rewards/consequences, praise--ie "good job" etc and totally turn that around to follow the UP principles..........I guess I really need to go get that book!)