or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Archives › Miscellaneous › Vaccinations Archives › How Do You Decide? › Workshop by Dr. Bob Sears (includes Aluminum)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Workshop by Dr. Bob Sears (includes Aluminum) - Page 2

post #21 of 39
Here's some of the stuff I was thinking of to give you an idea - some of this is stuff I started reading several years ago when my kids were little so there may be others more current:
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...s;97/3/413.pdf

http://www.bio.unipd.it/~zatta/aluminum.html
http://www.bio.unipd.it/~zatta/metals/DOCUMEN2.HTM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...13&query_hl=34

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...87&query_hl=37

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...98&query_hl=40
post #22 of 39
One more thing- Neustaedter is actually not an osteopath, but rather a doctor of oriental medicine, a homeopath & an accupuncturist.
post #23 of 39
Thread Starter 
As for who to listen to when it comes to vaccines, my personal preference is to talk vaccines with doctors. Now mind you I use accupuncture, and have used natural medicine. But I don't want to get information ONLY from a anti vax doctor, doesnt seem to make sense if you ask me. I liked Dr. Sears and Dr. Gordon because they obviously read and interpret the studies (its what they are taught to do, plus they have the ability to see through vax promotion for the sake of profit), and come up with some tempered conclusions. I am not of a mind that all vaccines are bad, and that no one should get them. Herd immunity is a real issue. Obviously each family gets to make their own decisions, and that is fine, but if everyone decided not to vax, there would be a real ressurgence of some of these diseases. Again, I am not of a mind to believe all the anti vax stuff out there, medicine has helped me and my family over the years, we are not throwing out modern medicine because it has some problems. We just want to be informed, and make our decisions from a place of increased knowledge, not blind trust.

Dr. Sears recommended two books on vax, Dr. Cave's and Romm?

Quote:
The effects of whole-cell pertussis vaccine wane after 5 to 10 years, and infection in a vaccinated person causes nonspecific symptoms (3-7). Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants (3-11). The whole-cell vaccine for pertussis is protective only against clinical disease, not against infection (15-17). Therefore, even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection.
Now as to fullheart's quotes from above. Let's be clear here, there are TWO Pertussis vaccines, whole cell and acellular. To use the whole cell arguments against the DTaP vaccine is disingenuous. The above is talking about whole cell, WE are not discussing whole cell, at least I am not.

As to ingredients in vaccines. Yes, I am certainly concerned about them. But to talk about toxicity with certain ingredients is again disingenuous if you don't talk about how MUCH is in the vaccines. We all ingest aluminum, polysorbate is contained in many things, heck we inhale and ingest mercury as well, and even formeldehyde. The concern shouldn't be over just the ingredient, but how MUCH? Obviously each child is different, every vaccine contains different things, of varying amounts. We need to weigh all the risks obviously, and of course different people will come to different conclusions.

Quote:
I also don't belive the theory that vaxing makes the disease less severe. My 4 yr old wasn't vaxed and his case was the mildest amongst my kids.
Theory? From what I have read there have been verified studies showing this. Anecdotal evidence about your son isn't enough imo to suggest that no one get the vaccine. Pertussis is a very serious problem, I think it needs serious consideration, and vaccines CAN help prevent or lessen the infection.
post #24 of 39
Quote:
The concern shouldn't be over just the ingredient, but how MUCH?
I think opinions vary about that. For me personally, a little bit of mercury isn't really ok no matter where it's from & I really do try to reduce exposure from all sources. I wouldn't choose a thimerosal preserved vaccine, I don't eat seafood & if I found out I lived near a coal burning power plant I'd move. That's just me though because I know that for plenty of folks, the dose is what makes the poison. So if you feel that just a little bit more can't hurt then I'm all for your right to make that choice.

I feel that same about aluminum although I might be willing to consider one aluminum containing vaccine but it wouldn't have pertussis in it. I don't find pertussis vaccines to be effective enough to justify their use.

Quote:
Now as to fullheart's quotes from above. Let's be clear here, there are TWO Pertussis vaccines, whole cell and acellular. To use the whole cell arguments against the DTaP vaccine is disingenuous. The above is talking about whole cell, WE are not discussing whole cell, at least I am not.
I assume maybe the DTwP info was for historical purposes since she immediately followed it with the DTaP info?? wP didn't work well as it was & what we have now is a trade off. Even lower efficacy in exchange for lower reactogenicity. Maybe the little bit that it can work sometimes is enough for a lot of parents, just not me.
post #25 of 39
The amount of aluminum in vaccines is far greater (logarithmically so) than concentrations measured to be neurotoxic. I agree that the amount is important but aluminum is in vaccines in doses that exceed what has been found to cause tissue damage. Also the form it is in (aluminum hydroxide) is highly dissociable so the equilibrium of Al ions in the blood and tissue is proportionally very high. One last point, the articles I cited - all of them - support vaccination. They are primary research articles. You can analyze their experimental methods and determine for yourself if their conlusions are legitimate. And they were all published in peer-reviewed scientific journals (not the newspaper or some advocacy website).

All I'm saying is that it's probably a good idea to seriously consider aluminum in the risk/benefit analysis of aluminum containing vaccines (such as DPT). So when you hear Bob saying that the ingredients in DPT are safe but he hasn't mentioned aluminum, you have to wonder about that.
post #26 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal
Theory? From what I have read there have been verified studies showing this. Anecdotal evidence about your son isn't enough imo to suggest that no one get the vaccine. Pertussis is a very serious problem, I think it needs serious consideration, and vaccines CAN help prevent or lessen the infection.

If you have those studies please post. There was a thread I started not too long ago when I was complaing about the HD and our WC and someone asked that question. No one had any links I don't think. My 4yr old isnt the only person I have seen with a mild case that wasn't vaxed btw. I guess I can keep my anecdotal evidence out of this forum.

Michelle
post #27 of 39
BTW, it certainly wasn't disingenuous for me not to mention the concentrations of aluminum in my first post since the articles I cited discuss this in their research. You need to actually read them to get that info. I didn't post that stuff thinking only the titles were relevant. I think people looking into DPT should actually go get the articles and read them. Now I'm not saying you personally have to go and read that stuff. It's sufficient to say that there's no point in debating the relevance of the information in these scientifically peer-reviewed articles if only one of us has read them.
post #28 of 39
Since you mentioned that Dr Gordon was there as well, I thought I'd add this link just for interest. This is an old pertussis discussion back when Dr Gordon visited here for a while:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=147447
post #29 of 39
Thread Starter 
post #30 of 39
Thread Starter 
http://www.drjaygordon.com/pediatricks/vacc2004.htm
post #31 of 39
Since we're now on the topic of Dr Gordon, here's another interesting quote:

"I believe it's possible that many developmental disorders may have been caused by mercury over the years, and that if we, as doctors, had known how much mercury we were injecting into babies, we would have questioned vaccine manufacturers years ago."
(Ask the Pediatrician column, Fit Pregnancy, April-May 2003 issue)

He's actually done online chats hosted by parenting forums as well & I've found him to be refreshingly candid. Since he's already stated they gave mercury to babies without even realizing the harm that was being done, I wonder perhaps if his opinions about other vaccine components might evolve some day as well.
post #32 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon
if we, as doctors, had known how much mercury we were injecting into babies, we would have questioned vaccine manufacturers years ago
That's disturbing because there's absolutely no reason he shouldn't have known how much mercury he was injecting into babies. Such a colossal mistake would preclude me from trusting his opinion on other vaccine ingredients.

Plus he really should speak only for himself because many doctors were questioning vaccine manufacturers long ago.
post #33 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by xerxes
Bob's definitely on the right path. I wish he'd get around to doing his homework on aluminum, though. I think that the more he learns, the shorter his list will become. And I say that meaning to give him credit because a large majority of doctors wouldn't think to change their minds on this issue.

:yes
post #34 of 39
Just an aside on aluminum, from personal experience and not scientific data. Many years back, my mom had an aluminum cookware set. During that time, my mom was having severe lapses in memory, decreased sensory perception, and a feeling that she described as a "tingling on her head." She went for an mri, cat scan, blood work, all normal. Her doctor fortunately asked her about what type of products she used, ie cleaning products, health and beauty aids etc, and then she off handedly mentioned the pots. And it triggered a red flag for the doctor and a possible cause to all of her problems. He told her to throw them out immediately. Within a month or so of doing that, she was getting better, life for her returned to normal. I don't think it was a coincidence.

Though she got "better' then, I believe it had a lasting toxicity. My mom was diagnosed with brain cancer about 10 years after this and died a short 15 months later. We will never know the "cause", but I really do think the aluminum was a trigger.

Had I known what I do now, my ds and dd, would not have received *any* vaxes. ds #3 will continue to be vax free.
post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal
Now as to fullheart's quotes from above. Let's be clear here, there are TWO Pertussis vaccines, whole cell and acellular. To use the whole cell arguments against the DTaP vaccine is disingenuous. The above is talking about whole cell, WE are not discussing whole cell, at least I am not.
I would agree that using the data on reactions to DPT as an argument against DTaP would be flawed, but fullheart's quote actually related to the efficacy of DPT in preventing pertussis...and the current medical literature states that DTaP is actually less effective than the old DPT. So fullheart's quote is not totally irrelevant.
post #36 of 39
As a chiropractor, my Father would tell most people who suffered from joint pain to get rid of their aluminium pots and pans and not to eat anything if it is cooked in aluminium. If you eat out, do you know if your food is cooked in it?

It almost always worked for his clients to stop cooking in aluminium. If you use any fluoride in your mouthwash, toothpaste or water, be advised that fluoride is a waste byproduct of the aluminium industry. Aluminium chloride is an active ingredient in antiperspirants.

Aluminium is present in many foods, yes, but we do not need to be taking it in our bodies in huge amounts or having it injected into our bodies through vaccines. Aluminium is in the autopsied brains of Alzheimer's Disease, and we do not know if this is a cause of the disease or a result of the disease. Just the same, it is probably a good idea not to be deliberately taking aluminium into our bodies knowingly.
post #37 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal
Prevnar, common and serious meningitis, safe ingredients, more chance of side effects, 4/5 score recommended
I won't comment on all the rest of it, because everyone else has done that very well. I'm commenting on this part for one reason only. Prevnar contains soy protein. Soy is one of the most common food allergens on the planet. How can it be safe to inject soy into babies who are still so young no one knows if they're allergic to it or not? Isn't that just stupid? My DD is very allergic to soy - if I eat soy she projectile vomits and poops blood, among other things. Stupid me didn't know Prevnar was going to come up first time we went in, so I hadn't researched it. I had decided to do Hib and Polio (can't really remember why I thought those were important a year later). Anyway, doc tells me what Prevnar is for and I say, "Oh, that sounds important. Let's do that one." Needless to say, DD was *extremely* ill. And yes, I know it was from the Prevnar because next time we got only Hib and Polio and she wasn't *nearly* as sick. We stopped completely after those last two.

Anyway, my ped *knew* DD was allergic to soy, but apparently didn't even know soy was in the shot. How is that safe? It makes my blood boil thinking about it. She didn't nurse more than twice a day for a full week. Her temp was 103 to 105 for a full week. The doctor was unconcerned. She even thought we should continue with the full course of Prevnar. Idiot. How is it safe to inject a *highly* allergenic substance into newborns? How?

ETA: I realized it sounds like I'm attacking you as the poster with these questions, but I'm really not! Sorry about that! I'm just so angry about what happened and I can't understand how no one sees the problem with highly allergenic ingredients in vaccines. To elaborate, it is stupid enough that they've fallen hook, line and sinker for the nonsense that poisons like thimerosal and aluminum are safe. But to then begin believing that it is so safe to inject highly allergenic substances into babies - even the ones that have been *confirmed* to be allergic to said substances?!?! That is just unthinkably moronic. My doctor didn't even tell me it was in there. If my child's allergy was more severe, it could have killed her! And I, being the good patient, would have allowed it because they didn't even give me the information I needed to make a good decision. Being military, apparently they aren't required to hand out the vaccine info sheets before shots.
post #38 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal
Theory? From what I have read there have been verified studies showing this. Anecdotal evidence about your son isn't enough imo to suggest that no one get the vaccine. Pertussis is a very serious problem, I think it needs serious consideration, and vaccines CAN help prevent or lessen the infection.
Just a point here.

Jwebbal, epidemiological studies mean NOTHING when it comes to seriousness of disease. There is a fantastic study by James Cherry, who must have forgot himself when he said it, that pointed out that nearly all pertussis studies suffered from "observer" bias. If children were vaccinated, observers considered the whooping cough mild. If they weren't, it was considered more serious.

I've read just about everything I could get my hands on on Pertussis, and just usually chuckle now when I read epidemiological studies.

For instance, anything written by Offit I can guarantee the result before he applies for funding.

Coming back to seriousness of a disease.

No study can assess that on an individual basis. Oh, the doctors can say "Based on X study, your child has a chance of 1 per 300" but frankly, that's ridiculous.

Just as it would be ridiculous for a doctor to say to me that my chances of arthritis from a rubella shot were less than 14 per thousand. (figure out of a hat)

Well, actually, I happen to be in that 14 per thousand figure out of a hat.

For me I was "it". Why? Because of the way my immune system processed that vaccine, and no study could cover that.

The year that my children got whooping cough, they were numbers 70 and 71 in the practice, and of the children up to that time they were the only two unvaccinated children. Both of them got it the mildest in the practice/Why? Because I'm a knowledgeable parents, know how to manage and treat whooping cough and refused to use antibiotics, that's why.

And that's a confounding no epidemiological study can allow for. If all the parents of babies with whooping cough are morons, then the severity level will be huge. If all parents of babies with whooping cough were like me, then the severity level would be minimal.

No study can adjust for a baby's immunological status, or the brains or lack of, of the parents involved.

Therefore such studies are as invalid as is the use of anecdote.

A child is only going to be as well as the parents ability to think, and work out appropriate treatment.

And this factor is also a failing in Dr Sear's workshop. Because babies in a practice that doesn't understand how to treat whooping cough will have far more severe disease than babies in a heretical practice that does understand how to treat it. "Stupid" doctors are as much of a health hazard to babies as "stupid" parents.

Whooping cough need never be severe in babies, and if they are in the practice of Dr Sears, that may be a reflection of two things. One, his lack of understanding of the mechanics of the illness and the best way to treat it, and his inability to pass that on to his parents effectively, and the lack of understanding of his parents. Though I would have thought that the thinking ability of parents going to his practice would be at the higher end of the scale.

In my opinion, Dr Sears has done inadequate homework as of now. I don't agree with his schedule, and believe that it reflects his own insecurities, not the realities of the diseases as they could be dealt with from the basis of full knowledge.
post #39 of 39
I also wanted to add that we are pretty sure DD had pertuss at around 5 months. I've talked to another mother whose DD had it and they had the exact same symptoms. I also posted her symptoms here and everyone said it sounded like pertuss. Well, it wasn't a big deal. She would have coughing spells a few times a day for 6 or 8 weeks. She'd cough so hard she'd throw up and her face would turn purple. But then she'd catch her breath and act just fine. It never even occurred to me to take her to the doctor because it only happened a few times a day and she was completely fine in between. I have listened to the sound byte of WC online and it sounded exactly the same. I'm convinced my DD had it and it was no big deal. Just last week there were two studies posted, both of which concluded that WC is not as severe as parents have been led to believe. They actually said that in the study. Also in the study, there were *more* vaccinated kids hospitalized for it than unvaccinated kids. The number was not statistically significant, so the point isn't really that more were hospitalized, but rather that being vaccinated didn't make the disease any less likely to result in hospitalization.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: How Do You Decide?
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Archives › Miscellaneous › Vaccinations Archives › How Do You Decide? › Workshop by Dr. Bob Sears (includes Aluminum)