So, I Met This Beautiful Chinese Woman Today.... - Page 2

[athansor]

I work with mostly Chinese people, and I'm one of the only mothers with a baby that I know who isn't Chinese (we've had a bit of a baby boom here at the office).

Both of the other new moms that I know well enough to talk about these things with are breastfeeding, and one of them breastfed her first son for over a year. Through the recent newborn births, the only thing that they all seemed to observe as tradition was a 30 day period that the mom and baby spent at home before they had visitors or took the baby out. My understanding was that during this time, the father (or other family) took care of everything around the house, giving the mom lots of time to bond with the baby. Small sample, of course, but I got the impression that these moms had nothing but good feelings toward breastfeeding.

[Jadzia]

Kinda

I remember reading an article awhile back about this big scandal in China, where people were selling fake baby formula to rural Chinese who had problems breastfeeding or they thought that "formula" might be better. Anyway, it was basically white colored water with no nutritional value and all these poor babies were starving to death.

I am not even religious, but I remember thinking there must be a special place in hell for people who would deliberately sell fake baby formula!

[Lula's Mom]

Jaclyn,
Sorry you got jumped on. I got that you were railing against the hospital for not encouraging breastfeeding. I hope you end up being friends with this woman. Surely you each have a lot to share with the other.

[Ilaria]

Originally Posted by Past_VNE

My comment about compliance with doctors was in reference to an article I can't seem to find right now. It was about lactation consultants having difficulty with Chinese women even when they wanted help. It said that because they didn't want to cause any hassles, they would often answer that there we no problems, even if there were. It was especially problematic in relation to the medical staff they were dealing with.

I can totally see that. Before moving to Asia, dh's company provided classes in cultural training, most of which covered communication styles. We are currently in the Philippines and the first thing people told us was: "There are a 1,000 ways to say "NO" in the Pilippines, and all begin with yes" Totally true and not a stereotype, just like the OP wasn't.

[~Kira~]

DH is Chinese, and I completely understood what the OP was saying.


He is from Hong Kong, born and raised. His mom was 18 when she had him, and he was born 2 months premature. She dumped him off at his grandmother's as soon as he was out of the incubator and went off to work in a factory. He was given formula until he was SEVEN YEARS OLD! Un-be-freakin-lievable, I know.

There's little to no maternity leave in Hong Kong, and to survive both parents must work, unless they are among the very very very obscenely wealthy. Most moms from what I understand do formula feed, because of this and also formula is marketed over there as being BETTER than breastmilk, it's so disgusting.

When we were there last time, there'd be mural-size formula ads in the MTR (train) stations touting the fact that your child would get his PhD as long as you had him on this type of formula. God, I was ill everytime I saw one.

2 of DH's cousins recently had babies. One decided to BFeed. The nurses in the hospital told her to BFeed 4 times a day.


I was on the phone swearing a blue streak and making her promise me she'd nurse the baby every 2-3 hours if not more often. Good God....

The other one went straight to formula.


And as for circumcision, it's not routinely done in China or Hong Kong (I know that Hong Kong is part of China now, but I'll never get used to that) and any of DH's family that heard from DH about my intactivism has always been stunned to hear what is done to baby boys hear in North America. They think we are barbaric and cruel.


They're right.





-Kira

(just had to drop in my 2 cents)

[TigerTail]

jaclyn, not everyone read you as a horrible condescending westerner.

at first of course, i wondered about adding 'chinese' to the header, as i am not really a fan of adding racial detail if not necessary to the story- but read your POST, & it was obviously pertinent. there is a difference between prejudging everyone of a specific genetic kinship as naturally submissive, & the simple acknowledgment that a particular culture tends to lead people to behave a particular way.

if i said, "my african friend and i went to lunch", that's unnecessary & sounds patronizing. "my friend" is adequate. if i am saying "my african friend & i had lunch today, & he taught me some words in yoruba." it's different. it's part of the story.

can we be a little more tolerant of our sisters, that some of us here have known for half a decade? accusations of racism are serious and oughtn't be thrown up in the air anytime someone gets a pc bug up their butt, kwim?

suse

[girlndocs]

Originally Posted by suseyblue

accusations of racism are serious and oughtn't be thrown up in the air anytime someone gets a pc bug up their butt, kwim?

OMG. Do you people genuinely not notice, or do you just not give a crap, that you are driving away fellow breastfeeding mamas who could be valuable additions to this forum and valuable allies in your advocacy?

It would cost you so little, and gain you so much to simply take a minute to say, "Hmm, if people are offended, I wonder why?" But it's too much trouble apparently. Yeah, just write off all those mamas who have PC bugs up their butts because they make you uncomfortable.

I am just gobsmacked.

[TigerTail]

i would wager more women are put off from posting here for fear of misspeaking & the coterie of the self-rightous descending upon their heads. (and it's not my bug. i'm not in the least uncomfortable.)

suse

[annettemarie]

Here's a wild thought.

How 'bout instead of one side telling the other how much they suck, or how they have a bug up their butt and shouldn't be offended, we actually, oh, I don't know, dialogue and try to figure out where every one is coming from.

It's crazy, I know, but it just might work.

There is a thread in TAO if anyone would like to discuss it there.

[butterflyma]

:

I must say, I wasn't being pc. And, I apologize for being harsh. I know that you (past vne) were genuinely being concerned about the family in question. But, you don't have to be blatantly negative (mail-order bride, etc) to be stereo-typing someone in a way that is (ultimately) negative. I can see now, that I was being assumptive, too. For all I know, perhaps you did have a conversation that was in depth to the extent that you could correctly/certainly say that these parents didn't know better.

I know that *tone* can be difficult to discern via the computer screen. What I *heard* sounded like you were patronizing these parents, based on their origins/language barriers as perceived by you, through a short conversation. To me, that would be uncool.

But, in any event, I hope that you are able to make friends with this family. I hope (through your friendship) you will be able to demonstrate the benefits of breastfeeding, and that any future babies brought into that family will receive the best milk, as a result

[slinginhipmama]

Ok I will add my comments (almost frightened) that I too may be misinterpreted. I have to say, I met Past Vne and have to say she is a very sincere, sweet mama that I KNOW would not intentionly hurt someones feelings or stereotype. That said, I understand where frustration sets in. I too, get furious when I hear the stories about women not getting the right information on breastfeeding, but we should not always jump to conclusions. Hugs to you Past Vne

[girlndocs]

OK, here are some thoughts that I just posted in the thread about racism and cultural sensitivity in TAO: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...98#post3325798

I said this before in a discussion about sexism and I totally think it applies to racism and other forms of bias: it really cripples the cause that people think of "racism" as some big, ugly, overt thing. You know, racists are the people who go around talking about n*****s, or not wanting their kids playing with darker kids, or burning crosses.

So when someone gets called out for a racist statement, they perceive that as being called a horrible person, and they say things like, "That's not a racist statement, because I'm not a racist person." Well, yes, dude, you are, because you just said something racist. The thing is, it doesn't mean you're awful or hang out with skinheads. It means you've gotten tripped up by the racism that's so ingrained in our culture it's seen as normal, and someone is trying to point out to you that in this case, what our culture sees as normal is not OK. It isn't personal.

So no one is saying Jaclyn isn't a sweet person who means well, I totally can see that she did. What people were trying to point out is that it appears the way she is perceiving this woman is colored by the way American culture has portrayed Chinese women; they were asking her to take a closer look at her prejudices.

Racism is deeply and subtly ingrained in American culture, and none of us escape it. Nice, good people have racist ideas and preconceptions. Fortunately, nice, good people also have the opportunity to change those things when they are pointed out.

I hope you all come over to the thread in TAO. It's a very polite thread (AnnetteMarie will crack some heads if we don't play nice) and I think there will be some good discussion.

And Suse, I respectfully submit that if anyone is so insecure that they would be driven away by other politely pointing out theat they have said something stereotyping or biased, then that's their problem. It's not the problem of the peopel who are offended by racism to become less offended, so that racism can continue unchallenged.

[Jadzia]

I think there is a HUGE difference between being a racist and evoking a stereotype. I don't see anything wrong with what the original poster said. I think we get so hung on the fact that stereotyping is wrong that we forget that often there are some "stereotypes" that are merely factual cultural differences.

Everything I have ever read about Chinese culture has indicated that it is primarily a male-dominated society. I don't think it is racist to acknowledge that fact. Just by acknowledging that there are cultural difference is not racist. I think ignoring that there are cultural differences is doing a disservice to honoring other cultures.

I don't think that it implies that this woman was weak or submissive or any of the things that we perceive as being bad by our own western prejudices. In a way, you could almost argue that the people jumping down the OPs throat are just as judgemental, if they assume that having different gender roles than we have is such a huge insult. Maybe women raised in that culture do not find anything wrong it?

[girlndocs]

Jadzia, why don't you come on over to the thread I linked to above? I (and other people, I'm sure) would be glad to discuss how cultural bias can color the sources we get our "facts" from.

[Jadzia]

Originally Posted by girlndocs

Jadzia, why don't you come on over to the thread I linked to above? I (and other people, I'm sure) would be glad to discuss how cultural bias can color the sources we get our "facts" from.

So you are saying that Chinese culture is not primarily male-dominated?

All the literature I have ever read written by Chinese and Chinese-Americans authors has given me this impression. Are the authors biased against their own culture?

[sadie_sabot]

Originally Posted by Jadzia

Everything I have ever read about Chinese culture has indicated that it is primarily a male-dominated society.

which is different from our culture how?

[girlndocs]

If you guys keep having this fascinating discussion here, the thread will be locked for being off-topic.

There's a whole thread over in TAO. No one there will bite ya. Please?