Israel - Page 85

[sunshinestarr]

wish i could write more right now but this is why i have never been to tipat chilav and why i won't go!!!! stick to your mama instincts. hope to write more later.

[jul511riv]

lol @ sss. hehehe. She beat me to the punch. That's why she's my bff.

Anyways, yeah, me either. I had a concerned person call the tipat chalav when they found out I wasn't going...thinking that if someone called me from there who spoke in English, maybe I would feel a bit better. She told me that she had done it. I thanked her for her concern but told her that I was not interested in tipat chalav and then, sure enough, an english speaking nurse from tipat chalav did call.

She was rather cold and wanted to know why I had not brought in my children. She asked me for my name and address. I told her I did not give out that information over the phone. She told me that it was absolutely imperative that I bring the children so that they don't make others sick without their vaccinations and that she needed to make sure that they were surviving on breastmilk, otherwise they would need to have formula immediately. She also told me that it was a serious danger to not constantly measure them against the charts...what if they were too big or small? Then I would have to put them on a diet or feed them formula.

It was fastinating.

Once she was done with her shpeal, I told her that I had another call and hung up. That was the last I ever heard from tipat chalav.

If it ever happened again I would say that we have a private doctor that we see in the USA or that we go to our peditrician for all that. I would also say something along the lines of "we are moving next week."

At any rate, I've never been there and I never will go there. I suggest that you find a great ped that you trust (I have one in the merkaz and have mentioned her name before many times on here) and I would absolutely go to her in the event that something came up and I needed advice from someone who respects our rights to not vaccinate and also who is well educated about breast feeding.

From what I know they chart your child based on formula fed children in a specific part of the world on a specific type of diet in the 1940's or 50's. The charts mean nothing, the baby's behavior means everything. This means that the child should be progressing at a normal rate for that particular child, which is impossible to chart.

My son didn't begin to eat solid foods until he was 3 months shy of two years old. If I had taken him to tipat chalav I can only imagine what sort of invasive prescriptions would have awaited us. Everything from blood tests, to seeing specialists, to formula, to depriving him of bm AND formula to force him to eat, etc... etc... etc...

He was fine, B"H. I supplimented with a bit of floradix when I noticed that his resistnace was down a bit...eventually he started eating. It was the same thing with walking...and crawling. He never rocked back and forth or did all of these things that the charts say he was supposed to do. But one day, when he was about a year, he just stood up and walked. He never toddered or fell down. He just got up and walked and has been walking ever since. There was no way to mark that on a chart and the only way to know that he was okay was to look at him and use my mother's instinct (you know, that thing that they tell you is great until it's something that could be serious and then "you dont' want to mess with that.")

Anyways, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. I've posted about this before and anyone who has spoken with me knows my position on all of this, but in short, I would stop going to tipat chalav. Only take your kids to a doctor when they are sick and read How to Raise A Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor by Dr. Robert Mendelsohn (and then start reading his other books, too).

Sorry you had a crap day. (((hugs)))

[3daughters]

I'm not big on Tipat Chalav either. I've taken my daughter a couple of times and, luckily, the nurse has always been understanding. Dd is not fully vaccinated so she just wrote in her chart that its my choice. Also, I did not give dd iron supplements but her HB levels went up since I was giving her iron enriched foods. The Tipat Chalav nurse was pleased and told me to continue what I was doing. Also fortunately, I haven't had weight gain issues with my babies (my 11 year old is a whole other thing) so that hasn't come up.

Dr. Jack Newman would tell you to watch the baby and not the charts. The Tipat Chalav nurse has to follow protocols. The worse thing that can happen is that you'll do the blood tests and they will prove that your dd is fine and you were right all along!

[Sprout77]

Just wanted to throw in my two cents, even though it's along the same lines. We've had wonderful nurses at the tipat chalav, and horrible ones who insist that I'm hurting my son by not feeding him milk and meat (such ignorance! ack!). Between his one year and 1-1/2 year check, his weight percentile went from very high (75-90%) to low (25-50% or something like that). Although the nurse wasn't concerned (one of the nice ones), I made an appt with his pediatrician, whom I really like because he really respects veganism etc. He said all was probably okay (based on my son's behavior and the fact that he was still growing taller - which is the most important way to determine if they're getting all the nutrients they need), but to be safe we check his blood and urine and wrote a food diary for a few days. My son is picky and although everything is FINE, his doctor simply recommended that we try to get more high-calorie foods in him (which we already were trying, but now we work even harder to slip tehina, avocado, ground up nuts and nut butters, healthy oils, etc. into his food). Anyway, DON'T worry! It's never easy to have to listen to someone tell you that you're endangering your child's health, even when you know that they have no idea what they're talking about. Like others have said, follow your instincts, and go to a GOOD pediatrician (one that is actually knowledgeable on nutrition, vaccines, natural parenting, etc.) when in doubt.

[jul511riv]

who's your ped, sprout?

[Sprout77]

My son's pediatrician is Dr. Filk with Clalit. We see him at our little clinic in the neighborhood of Bavli in Tel Aviv. He's originally from Spain, and so far has been VERY respectful and knowledgeable on the things that matter to me, including veganism and nutrition. Don't know how he'd handle not vaccinating (we ARE vaccinating - an ongoing dilemma for me), but I imagine he'd be respectful of that, as well, and even if he didn't fully agree, he would never put down a parent or accuse them of hurting their child (like I've heard about and experienced elsewhere). Is it right that if you're with Clalit (or whatever kopat cholim) you can go to any clinic under that name???

[emilikow]

Hey Julie

Where in the Center do you live? when is the meet up in HH that you'll be at? I know there's a group but don't know when they meet or any details. We're having a tough time w meet-ups at the moment w my 5yo but if it's at a time that I could leave him w DH, it would work

Emily

[emilikow]

The WHO charts include non-breast-fed babies, so at some point most breastfed kids start to fall significantly as the baby gets to an age when most babies are no longer breastfed. My kids were both around 75% weight and dropped to about 25% in the first year. Not sure about height though, but I definitely wouldn't worry!

[girls]

Thank you

Thank you everyone for listening and the support. I know that my mama instincts are right and baby is looking thank g-d very well and healthy. She is still nursing whenever she wants. It is just that the tipat chalav's advice is completley the opposite of what I believe and practice. It is kind of crazy. She was telling me that I should limit the times that I nurse her becuase then she isn't hungry but then she was saying that at this age there is no nutriants to my milk.... I don't think that I will be going back there especially after she treatened that next month if she isn't on her chart line she will have to pass my name along to the specialists.....
It really is crazy the things that they believe to be true and the fact that they make mothers feel so bad.
The whole experience was terrible she kept washing her hands with alcohol after every time she touched the babe..and after I told her that she really likes dates she said that I should add petibear cookies to her dates...I just don't get it. This is the advice they are giving other moms and they are actually listening.

ANWAYS I knew I didn't need to worry, just wanted reassurance.

So thank you,

O

[bettybee]

Hi girls, I'm new in mothering, I'm expecting my first baby who will born in January 2010. My husband and me are from EU and now we are living in Hadera. May be you can give me some advise about the hospitals here. I'd like the most the idea of home birth, but if something would happen I don't want to go to the hospital here (I heard it is very bad hospital and in Hadera the people usually don't speak english, only hebrew or russian, but it doesn't help me much), so may be instead of the homebirth would be better to go to a hospital to Tel Aviv where they can offer natural birth (LDRP rooms), do you know places like that?

[jul511riv]

nope. thinking that it would be better to just start at a hospital in order to avoid the remote possibility of a hospital tranfer is totally biazarre to me. You are far safer at home if you are having a low risk pregnancy and do not have any risk factors or issues that would necessatate a hospital birth. The British Governemnt has got a study proving that and several other goverments corraborate it, and practice what they preach my using their socialized helath care systems to pay for women to give birth at home.

A CNM (Certified Nurse Midwife) is an excellent option for you. This midwife has hospital training and would come with you in the very rare event of a transfer and maintain your care (and still be in charge of your care, conversing with you and making deicisions with you along the way). There are many excellent CNM's who are certified by the Israeli government to do homebirth in the merkaz. the beofen-tv website is just one way to find them.

Illana Shemesh has a "birthing center" which basically has no legal status and is the same as a homebirth, just in someone else's house (her tzimmer, I believe). All CNM's carry first aid and other emergency equiptment along with them in the event that they are needed. This often includes, an oxygen tank and injectable pitocin, amongst other things. Not only that, but you will get prenatal care from your CNM who is specifically trained (by Israeli goverment protocols) to recognize any signs that might facilitate your needing to transfer, G-d Forbid.

Because birthing at an Israeli hospital necessitates taking any CNM that is on call at that specific hospital on that specific day, hiring a private CNM to care for you for the full 9 months in the comfort of your own home is the same thing you would get at a hospital...only better because this woman will KNOW you and will be able to be extra sensitive to changes in your demeanor or behavior that a stranger would not. You will be more relaxed seeing a familiar face that you have built a relationship with as well. And all the research clearly shows that the more relaxed and calm a woman is in labor, the healthier, faster, and easier her labor will be.

B'sha'ah tova.

[bettybee]

Thanks for your help! I can see that you have experiance in home birthgiving, could you please tell me what we need to do after the birth if we choose himebirth? Do we need to go to the hospital or to any place to "report" the birth or the midwife has the right to organise it, or we both need to do it? In Europe people have some days to report the birth after homebirth and it can be organised by the father too and don't need to show the baby in a hospital. Is it the same here?

[jul511riv]

Again, it sounds like a CNM is what you are looking for. Because a CNM is registered with the Israeli government for homebirth, you will have a very easy time getting this information from her that is both current and applicable to your situation. So what I am about to tell you was current and legal at the time I homebirthed with a CNM, which was about 3 years ago. The laws are likely about the same now, but when you interview CNM's they will be able to give you all of this information totally up to date.

Anyways, with a CNM (certified nurse midwife) you will birth at home and the CNM will fill out all of the paperwork you need for a homebirth and also give a copy of her stamp/license and you will take all of these documents to the misrad hapanim (I believe that's the right one, but the CNM will tell you) and simply give the paperwork to them and they will register the baby and give a birth certificate in Hebrew AND ENGLISH (FOR FREE...provided you request the English one in addition to the Hebrew, which you will need for foreign passports...so don't forget to ask for it!). I don't think that there is a time limit. With our ds we went to have him registered something like a week or two after his birth. This was after his brit milah for certain (so he was AT LEAST 8 days old, and very likely had a few days to heal). I know this because we do not announce the name until the brit, and so there was no way I would have even considered taking him to register him and give out his name before that time.

The downside is that the mother and baby MUST be present for registering (again, check with your CNM to know if that law is still in effect).

At the time that I had ds, it was also "required" that a peditrician see the baby within the first 48 hours. Some women take their children to a hospital for this. I highly recommend against it. Not only will you get a ped on call, but hosptials are notorious for being pissed off that you had a homebirth and not "trusting" that everything is okay. Also, many hospitals have rules that when you arrive with a baby after a homebirth, they need to take the baby away from you for observation...this could be for as little as an hour but usually becomes much more as they say they "can't be sure" that all is well and typically demand that you check yourself and the baby in...or even worse, ask you to check in your baby and then tell you you need to leave him/her overnight for further obeservation. Not good. Also, since a hospital is a place for sick people, it is very common for babies to pick up germs and viruses from the hospital while there, which means you will be coming back to deal with that about a week or two later...or just dealing at home with a sick baby.

But there is no need to do this.

You can take your baby to your local kupah peditrician or, better yet, hire a ped to come privately to your home. MOST if not ALL CNM's work with peds that come right to the home. The average cost for this back 3 years ago was 500nis. The ped comes right to your door, takes a look at the baby, confirms that all is well, fills out a form, and you submit that form to the misrad hapanim when you go to register the baby. Again, I dont' know if this is still required, and it may not be.

As for me, it was very simple. I had a CNM, birthed at home, and my CNM called one of the peds that she works with and he came over within a few hours to check out the baby. It was a 20-30 min visit, he talked to me about nursing and a lot of other things that I really didn't need or care to talk about (I was not a first time mother and rather well-informed and confident, at that, but some might find it soothing). We paid him 500nis, he gave us documentation that he was there within 48 hours of the birth and that was the end of the story. We took all of the papers to the misrad sometime after our son's brit (within 3 weeks, most likely) and they asked "why did you have this baby at home?" We said "because we wanted a homebirth." and they said "okay" and that was the end of it. They gave us his birth certificate on the spot. Then we asked for an English one, which they also gave us. Once we had this documentation we were able to take passport photos and register him for a passport with any country he was eligable to register for.

So it was very very simple.

This time, I will be B"H working with a lay midwife. Aparently this is slightly more complicated as it will "look" like I just was irresponsible and didn't get proper medical care and then the baby just came out before I could get to a hospital. Either way, my understanding is that so long as I have a note dated sometime in the 8th or 9th month from an OBGYN saying that I'm pregnant and expecting on my due date and then a note after the birth within 24-48 hours from an OBGYN saying that I had a baby within the past 24-48 hrs (they want to make sure that the baby is, indeed, YOURS!!!) then I have met the requirements. Aparently it is not NECESSARY to have a note from a ped, but it is BETTER to have one in this circumstance. So I will also need to hire a private ped to come to the house within that time period to state that the baby she is seeing is less than 48 hours old and the baby's condition. I will then take the 2 letters from an OBGYN (one from the end of my pregnancy and one from the immediate post birthing time) and the letter from the ped to the misrad and tell them that I had the baby at home before I could get to the hospital (if they ask "why" I had the baby at home). Aparently this meets the government criteria for homebirth in the event that it is NOT with a CNM and there will B"H be no balagan provided I have those documents and they will simply register the baby and all will proceed as above. I am TOLD that it is helpful to have an ultrasound of the baby as well to show them, though I am opposed to this on principal, because my medical records are not the misrad's business and private. But, as this is Israel, I don't think that matters to anybody but me. Aparently it is BEST to have the ultrasound performed in the 8th or 9th month of the pregnancy, as this PROVES beyond a doubt (to the misrad, anyway) that you were pregnant right up until the very end, and that you got proper medical care (by having an ultrasound, don'tcha know!) I actually DO have an ultrasound, of the feet and hands, ironically, from early on in the pregnancy and won't be having another ultrasound after that unless there is a medical indication that I should (which will either be made apparent to myself or my midwife), so the one I have will have to do.

At any rate, its not as complicated as it sounds. Many women are doing this every day. There are government regulations in place for it. With a CNM it's perfectly legal...and you know what, even without a CNM, having your baby at home and not making it to the hospital in time is perfectly legal, too. B"H all will be well.

[girls]

Hey,

There is also an amazing doctor that I heard of that does homebirths and is cheaper then midwifes. Everyone that I know that went with him say he is wonderful and are very pleased.
If you are interested I can get his information for you. All the women that I know that went with him said that they once they met with him they knew that they was the one they wanted to go with.

All the best,

Orit

[bettybee]

Jul511riv; Thanks for your time to writing me, I hope my story will be as simple as yours was! Now I'm a little bit confused with everything around the birthgiving, I feel quite alone and far from the real world (what is still EU for me)... That's for sure I'm going to check the CNM's database if there is any and probably hire one of them.
Orit; thanks for the information! Yes, it would be nice to have his contact.
Betti

[jul511riv]

Originally Posted by girls

Hey,

There is also an amazing doctor that I heard of that does homebirths and is cheaper then midwifes. Everyone that I know that went with him say he is wonderful and are very pleased.
If you are interested I can get his information for you. All the women that I know that went with him said that they once they met with him they knew that they was the one they wanted to go with.

All the best,

Orit

His name is Avnai Shifton. He is cheaper than the midwives because he provides no prenatal care whatsoever. I have spoken with him on the phone and have his phone number (I believe). He also brings a midwife to the births, from what I recall and is very hands off. He is also a man...something that may or may not turn you off. I will be calling him soon to inquire about getting a letter from him before the birth certifying that I am pregnant, since aparently that is needed when going with a NON-CNM. He's already agreed to come after the birth to write a letter stating that he saw me within 48 hours of the birth and that I am indeed the mother. Again, this is not stuff that you would need to do if you had a CNM. And he charges seperately for letters like that, btw. He also comes to the house and works primarily in the North.

Carlos Rosenberg is a doctor with Maccabi and has an office in North Tel Aviv. He's very expensive and goes with a CNM to the birth, the CNM does all the work, he's just there in case of an emergency. I think he migth also have a birthing space in or near his home.

Originally Posted by bettybee

Jul511riv; Thanks for your time to writing me, I hope my story will be as simple as yours was! Now I'm a little bit confused with everything around the birthgiving, I feel quite alone and far from the real world (what is still EU for me)... That's for sure I'm going to check the CNM's database if there is any and probably hire one of them.
Orit; thanks for the information! Yes, it would be nice to have his contact.
Betti

www.beofen-tv.co.il ( I believe that is the address, anyway). A list of CNM's is on there. I will warn you that many charge for the initial meeting. Somewhere around 200nis which is usually applied to your total fee should you choose to hire them. So having some basic questions to weed out someone over the phone will save you time and money (for example, if you will absolutely refuse the "all systems check" 20 minute ultrasound, which is part of the CNM's required hoops that you must jump through, you will have to find a CNM who is open to allowing that. There are a couple, btw...Ronit is one of them.)

[Yuki]

Avnai Shifton...when you say works primarily in the North, do you know where he is based?

[jul511riv]

My understanding is that provided that he is available he will travel anywhere in the North (with proper notice before hand). He may work at a hospital in the Carmel or Haifa area, but that is just a guess.

[bettybee]

Jul511riv;
Thanks for the link, I will check the list there!
You wrote that Carlos Rosenberg migth also have a birthing space in or near his home. What do you mean under "birthing space"?
Can you write me how do we say CNM in hebrew?

[girls]

Hey
Jul. You beat me too it. I was about to post about Avnai Shifton. I don't know him personally and never spoke with him or met him. Just heard great things. There is also the birthing center in Poriya called locheshet latinokot. And I met the midwifes who seemed great. Rozi and Ruti. Ruti is from Hoshaya and Rozi is from the Golan. I thing they charge 4,500. Many women are pleased with them. I think they could be looked up online I dont have their number.

Orit