Grains. Why do we need to eat them? - Page 2

[arcenciel]

For me I find it at least slightly confusing because there is so much contradictory information out there and a lot of it at least pretends to be scientific. I guess the body is just so complex that 'they' aren't really sure how it all affects other goings on.

The most convincing for me is the fact that people have only been eating grains for a few thousand years and they have to be cooked to be digestible. Surely that shows they are not natural? At least with meat, our digestive systems slightly adapted to digest it although that's relatively recent too. The eskimos aren't the only traditional people not eating a lot of grains and I find those arguments a lot more convincing than the protein/starch/glucose of recent years which may be something different tomorrow...

I used to think I felt healthy on grains and it is only since I have cut out a lot of other junk that I don't feel right on a lot of grains. It's not a question of losing weight either, more a question of feeling they are not giving me enough.

[nichole]

cjr- i dont' specifically have the answer to your question but i feel great when i eat grains (whole including wheat). i've tried to do the anti-candida diet and was able to go several weeks and then quit. blah

grains are cheap and available
keep me from eating less meat
yummy
there are days that is all my son will eat!

so that's why i eat them. i want to say more but i just remembered i gotta wash diapers.

[celrae]

maia- I appreciated the information that you response gave and the other information that followed.

I personally have no issues with grains I just want to make sure that my family will eat a variety of grains, in their wholist (is that a word) form. So I was excited to see this thread.

[tboroson]

Maia, I've been following this thread avidly, because it's one of the nutrition points I've pondered. Please don't feel that folks were attacking you - I think they were engaging you in very polite debate And your info on the Krebs cycle was dead on... as you noted, though, it didn't take into account other sources of carbohydrates. If that's the worst mistake you ever make on these forums, count yourself lucky It was actually a very good description of the Krebs cycle for folks who might not have known about it.

I also think that we're still learning a lot about the effects of hormones and digestion on how carbohydrates, fats and proteins affect us. The newest research definately shows that carbohydrate restricted diets do cause you to lose more weight than a similar-calorie low fat diet, and with far less stress and craving. And there definately is a difference between ketosis, which diabetics experiene and which damages organs, and ketoacidosis, which is more controlled. I've been watching carefully for more data on that, because I do see an awful lot of traditional cultures that eat extremely low on the carb scale (such as the Inuits) and thrive.

As for myself, I have definately found that I feel healthier on low/no grain diets. I am *such* a carb-oholic. But, when I cut out the grains, I feel healthier and more energetic and lose weight easily. I've also tested positive for gluten antibodies. Even though the positive wasn't strong enough to call it celiac disease, my father has celiac and I'm very alert to the possibility that I could develop it. Problem is, every time I get lazy and let them back into my diet just a little (because an almond butter sandwich is *such* an easy lunch sometimes...) it just snowballs and I start gaining again.

I'm back to no grain, and feeling great. In theory, I'd be happy with a bit of brown rice occasionally, but haven't gotten around to it in a few weeks. I do also occasionally break diet for a special occasion - dinner at a good restaurant (which happens about once every few months), family barbeques, parties. I'd say once a week or less. I thrive on a moderate amount of meat (that is, a small amount at most meals, rarely a large amount. I'm not doing the Atkin's 16 ounce steaks ) a small amount of raw dairy (especially yogurt and kefir), tons of veggies and a moderate amount of fruit (2-3 servings a day), plus some nuts and seeds. Problem is, I get really lazy sometimes at lunch and end up eating just a handful of almonds or something because I don't feel like cooking any meat. I'm roasting a pot roast now, which my dh won't eat, so that should be good for quite a few lunches for me and dd.

[cjr]

I still serve grains to my family. Dh loves them and the kids need them for their dense calories. They don't eat 12 servings though, more like 2-3. I enjoy them, I just find I do better and feel better without them. It took some getting used to, but I don't miss them at all. I miss sweet more than anything and will have a bite of brownie because I want the sweeness.

[mountain]

Originally Posted by blissful_maia

I don't know, maybe I'm just being overly sensitive about this, but I feel like I just offered what little knowledge I did have and sort of got booed because of it. What I was saying wasn't my personal opinion, it was what you would see if you opened any Biology textbook and read about cellular respiration. At this rate, I'm sorry I even said anything. I never denied that women could be healthy by just eating veggies/fruit, I'm sorry if I came off that way. I think health can't only centre around what one eats, there are so many other factors. And like I said previously, whatever makes you feel good and energetic is probably what's right for your body.

Much love mamas, sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way.

Lo siento, mama. Was NOT trying to down ya, just offering another detail in that cycle...I know it's great knowledge, and it's nice to consider all the aspects!

[mountain]

Originally Posted by arcenciel

The most convincing for me is the fact that people have only been eating grains for a few thousand years and they have to be cooked to be digestible. Surely that shows they are not natural? At least with meat, our digestive systems slightly adapted to digest it although that's relatively recent too.

Did you know that our digestive system, when compared with a carnivorous animal with canine teeth, absorbs the toxins from meat that a carnivore would excrete? Our small intestines are much more convoluted and complex than a carnivores. I just think that's so interesting in the consideration of "evolution of eating", yk? We've not fully evolved into carnivores, and I wonder if that really IS an evolutionary goal? From the amount of land needed to raise animals in a world that is closing in, the amount of colon cancer we suffer...

In the same vein, when we began cooking grain, did it mess with the evolutionary digestive system of the monkey with the opposable thumb? Is that what CAUSED our digestive system to become more convoluted in the first place, so we could absorb what little nutrition is in grain?

Could it be, the American "cheeseburger in paradise" , with its toxin-ridden meat and nutrient lacking white bread, is our ultimate poison??

[marilynmama]

I know if I eat too many carbs it is terrible...my vision gets blurry, I get tired, I gain weight for what seems like no reason, can't concentrate, etc I can do ok with very small amount of whole grains. Like tonight for dinner we had tilapia, broccoli and about 1/4 cup of pinto beans. I feel good. I try to stay way from all flour (even ww) but do have it now and then...homemade bread with butter and honey just tastes so dang good! Oatmeal doesn't seem to affect me as much either and I have that once a week or so, but most any other grains...I can't handle them at all.

People knock Atkins but I do give him some credit; he was one of the first Dr's to go mainstream about how food affects our hormones (mainly insulin)...that was a pretty big statement in his day (I think his book came out in the 70's???) to make and others have took his beginning research and expounded more upon it. But gosh, they are just now it seems really understanding all this as are we.

This is a great discussion!

[marilynmama]

Mountain,

That is something I am interested in as well. I know next semester I am taking an evolutionary comparative biology class, so I am hoping to learn more about all this. It's something I have read about here and there but honestly don't know much about....are humans supposed to be carnivores or vegetarians? I don't know, I'm not sure anyone really knows for sure since you see societies of both doing equally well. Maybe it doesn't really matter and matters most what our food sources are as a whole, chemicals in our foods, toxins, etc

I think we all can agree to our horrible meat supply, crappy grains/carbs so many people eat, etc.

Anyways, interesting topic

[captain optimism]

Nobody has said anything about the history or economics of eating grains. I wish I could say something really smart about it! But I really can't. I'm going to just put down my thoughts.

Humans in most of the world grew their populations through agriculture. In Asia this mainly meant rice, some other grains too like barley. In Europe this mainly meant wheat, some other grains too (like barley!)

The Inuit people might be very healthy on their diet, but they aren't exactly threatening to overpopulate their traditional areas, right?

In Europe population would grow too large for acriculture to support and then there would be famine and it would cut back the population. In other parts of the world, other starches supported populations. For example, in South America, potatoes and other tubers were important. When the European explorers brought potatoes back to Europe, they proved to be a lot more efficient than grain. In many countries, the potato became a LARGE part of the food supply. IN grad school I learned that this enabled the industrial revolution in Europe because the overpopulation in the rural areas became a base of low-income people who needed work in the cities. (It's not all about the enclosure movement, no matter what Karl Marx said about "primitive accumulation.")

All of which is to say, it's cheaper to keep people fed on starches and it's a traditional way to keep people healthy and alive. Bread is the traditional staple food of Europeans. Grains are really nutritious--they have a lot of calories, they supply the macronutrient carbohydrates, and they also have a lot of micronutrients if they are eaten whole and unrefined. The reason that no one has ever based a diet entirely on green vegetables (as in the Eat to Live diet) is that they don't provide enough calories to a society in which people do physical work, and because green vegetables aren't available year round in most places in the world. That diet is a very low calorie diet! It works for people who try it in an affluent society because we can afford to pay other people to grow vegetables for us instead of food for themselves and then pay other people to schlep that food for us around the world.

It's all about our historical moment and our position in the world economy.

[cjr]

I have been back and forth on the vegetarian/carnivor issue for well over a year. I don't know what is the heathiest way to eat. They both have their pro's and con's. I am trying to choose a lifestyle that has a good balance so I don't require any suppliments. For me it's a diet rich in beans/legumes, 1 serving of meat/day, 1 serving of goat dairy, lots of green vegetables both cooked and raw, lots of other vegetables both cooked and raw, 3-4 servings of fruit/day, nuts, some animal fats and some vegetable fats. I don't think my carb intake is low because I have way more energy than I have ever had. I have the energy to work out regularily, which had always been such a chore. My hair and nails are thicker and stronger. My moods are more stable and I am happier most of the time. My moon cycles are better than they have been in a long while.

I find this topic so interesting. I'm not convinced that colon cancer and other diseases are caused from consuming meat products. Overeating meat products, possibly. I feel carnivores concentrate less on fruits and vegetables, and omega rich fats (at least the carnivores I know). I think whole grains are relied on too much for regularity, however a good green smoothie in the morning will cure anyone of the worst constipation. You can eat whatever you want, but if you are not eliminating waste properly that in itself causes a whole host of problems. I find it interesting that people not consuming meat must take vitamin B12 suppliments. I also find it interesting that carnivores live shorter lives. I think it's all relevant to the person. There needs to be a balance and it's different for everyone.

When I am down to my goal weight I will start including a small amount of grains back. Most likely quinoa and brown rice. Perhaps, we'll see how I'm feeling.

[ComaWhite]

The most convincing for me is the fact that people have only been eating grains for a few thousand years and they have to be cooked to be digestible. Surely that shows they are not natural?

Well, thats not true either!
Sprouted wheat has been used for many 1000's of years to make dehydrated "bread" by the essenes.
Grow your sprouts and you have wheatgrass which is also totally edible.
All grains can be soaked/sprouted/grown without cooking in order to make then digestable.

[myjo]

I'm glad somebody finally mentioned sprouting! I believe grains that are not processed properly, ei sprouting or sour leavening, can certainly be very bad for your health. Grain that is not processed like this still has it's anti-nutrients intact and will deplete the body of vital nutrients, especially minerals. Grains actually have a chelating effect in their raw, unsprouted, unprocessed state.

All healthy traditional societies who thrived on grains had ways of properly preparing them that would deactivate anti-nutrients and unlock more nutrition. For example, traditionally, Jewish people would always sour leaven their bread except during certain festivals. And bread was a major staple for them. Scottish people would always soak their oats for several days in whey before cooking them a long time to make porridge. Eastern Europeans also have the tradition of sour leavening their breads.

I personally feel very good eating a diet including sprouted grains. But as was said before, we all are unique and must find the diet most suited to our particular constitutions.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by myjo

All healthy traditional societies who thrived on grains had ways of properly preparing them that would deactivate anti-nutrients and unlock more nutrition. For example, traditionally, Jewish people would always sour leaven their bread except during certain festivals. And bread was a major staple for them. Scottish people would always soak their oats for several days in whey before cooking them a long time to make porridge. Eastern Europeans also have the tradition of sour leavening their breads.

EVERYONE who ate raised bread used a "sour leavening" or wild yeast. The process for making baker's yeast is only about 130 years old! Unleavened bread (in Jewish culture called matzah) is eaten at Passover. It's also very traditional, though, not only to Jews. a lot of people eat flat bread like tortillas or chapatis. Tortillas do support your argument, though, because corn tortillas are typically made with a specially treated cornmeal.

I should also add that even raised doughs made with commercial baking yeast can ferment quite a lot. If you punch down once, and let rise again, and then let the loaves proof, that's quite a lot of fermentation.

The problem with arguing from tradition is that 1) there are some foods which different peoples dealt with in different ways (some cultures eat lots of a food and for others it is taboo, alcoholic beverages spring to mind) and 2) we don't actually know how long some traditions for dealing with foods have been in existence. We do have archeological evidence of people using grains to make beer and then (probably later!) bread since the cultures of ancient Mesopotamia. I think sprouting grains was quite important to the early beer brewers...don't you need malt to brew beer? I also wonder whether the diets we imagine are traditional were sufficient to sustain large populations.

The Essenes didn't exist for thousands of years. Essene bread might be very traditional--I don't know anything about that--but the Essenes had their moment in SEcond TEmple Judaism under Roman rule and that's the last we saw of them! I wouldn't hold them up as paragons of health or anything, from what I know about them, either.

I don't think you need to eat any category of food if you don't want to eat it. we have such a lot of food available that you can skip something that was traditional to eat in your family and get enough of a lot of other foods to make up its lack. Certainly if you are eating lots of beans, you are getting a lot of the starch that's in grains from that. I wouldn't worry about it. The reason that that most whole foods or improved diets are based on whole grains is that most people's diets are based on refined grains, and switching anything whole for anything refined has got to be a huge improvement.

[cjr]

Ahhh, sprouting. I had forgotten about sprouting. So, can you take just plain old wheat berries and turn them into wheatgrass? Should it be a specific type of wheat berry? Can you just eat the grass or do you have to juice it, could I just put the grass in the blender with a smoothie? Sprinkle them on salads? What about spelt berries, will they grow spelt grass that is edible? I love sprouted grain bread and that's what I buy for the family. I make spelt bread for ds. I even found sprouted wheat hamburger buns. I would love to know how to make the stuff, and not have it turn into a brick.

[myjo]

There's one company I know of that actually sells sprouted grain flour. They sprout the grains, dehydrate them, then grind them into flour. You can't really tell the difference between that and other whole grain flours other than the fact that it digests easier. Here's a link if you're interested: www.creatingheaven.net/eeproducts/eesfc

[GuavaLava]

Originally Posted by Jadzia

It is, but grains are lot more calorie dense than vegetables (which are more nutrient-dense).

I think that is one of the reasons Eat to Live works so well, because you fill up on such nutrient dense food that is also very low in calories.

100 calories of bread would be like 2 small slices, but 100 calories of vegetables would be a huge plate!

That makes sense. I do WW Core Plan. There is a list of foods you can eat, to "satisfaction" without measuring our counting. I've heard people compare it to volumetrics. The Plan works for me as is, so I've not done any other research or read any other books.

Things like barley, oatmeal, whole wheat pasta, brown rice, bulgur, and popcorn are on the list. I think this works because the average American isn't going to eat the same quantity of whole wheat pasta as they would white pasta. Reading the WW message boards you'd think polenta was just invented. :LOL

[cjr]

myjo, that's a great link. Unfortunatley I can't get it here, and if I could the shipping would kill me. I wonder if I could make it myself? I have a whole bag of organic spelt berries downstairs that I was going to grind up. I wonder if I could sprout them and dry them myself? It could be worth a try.

[ComaWhite]

Originally Posted by cjr

Ahhh, sprouting. I had forgotten about sprouting. So, can you take just plain old wheat berries and turn them into wheatgrass? Should it be a specific type of wheat berry? Can you just eat the grass or do you have to juice it, could I just put the grass in the blender with a smoothie? Sprinkle them on salads? What about spelt berries, will they grow spelt grass that is edible? I love sprouted grain bread and that's what I buy for the family. I make spelt bread for ds. I even found sprouted wheat hamburger buns. I would love to know how to make the stuff, and not have it turn into a brick.

Yep, just any type of wheat berries will do. You can use oats, rye, kamut and spelt too.
Sprout them in a jar and then spead then out in a tray on a 1 inch layer of compost/peat moss and keep watering it. It grows SO FAST.

I just chew it up and spit up the fiber when all the juice is out, I have also added to to smoothies, but I really just like the taste plain. It does wonders for your teeth and gums this way too.

How to make sprouted bread w/o it turning into a brick? I can't help you there sorry, many failed attempts here :LOL

[cjr]

I think I'm going to try making my own sprouted flour. I have spelt berries in mason jars right now and tomorrow I will start the sprouting process. That link said they dry at 110deg, so I will start there.