Infant VS Adult and Other "Baptism" Q's - Page 2

[DaryLLL]

NM-

Matt 3:11--

John the Baptist speaking: "I baptize you with water, for repentance; but the one who comes after me is mightier than I am...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit ("pneuma"-Gk for air) and with fire."

Luke 3:16--

John: "I baptize you with water...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

So are all y'all Christians getting the air/breath/spirit and fire treatment too? What does that symbolize?

John says the purpose of baptism is repentance, in Matt. So baptizing babies would be out--they ain't got nuthin to repent of!

[punkys_daddy]

It's not just "speaking in tongues"

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is debated fiercely between certain denominations...
What are the evidences of it? Do you HAVE to speak in tongues? In public? In privacy of your home/car/closet? etc.

Radio Bible Class (RBC) - the organization that publishes "Our Daily Bread" daily devotionals - has this to say about it...
I think they go over some views in a pamphlet format.

Filled with the Holy Spirit?

[kama'aina mama]

Hmmm.. I coulda sworn Limbo went out in the Second Vatican Council. I'll get back to you on that! As far as why a babe would need Baptism (again, this is Catholicism, which is what the early church sorta turned in to) we are all born with Original Sin. That is the taint on us from the very first sin committed by Adam and Eve.

[caleb's mommy]

Interesting discussion. Darylll, I know I've read Matthew many times before, but I never noticed that verse. What Bible are you using? Do you know Greek or is that footnote in your Bible?

I have a hard time believing that God, who I see as being infinitely merciful and loving, would send a baby to hell for being unbaptized. Talk about suffering for the sins of your parents!

[queen620]

Wow I just finished reading up on the spirit's baptism. the article was very intriguing, but since I was just reading the excerpt from my "Basic Theology" by Charles Ryrie and not actually reading alongside with the scripture I won't comment on that b/c my mind is still spinning.

Anyway as far as the infant vs adult baptism. I believe that scripture clearly teaches that babptism is an act of obedience and public profession/confession of ones' faith in Christ. I think it is much like the observing the "Lord's table" it is not a requirement for salvation, but an ordiance to the believer to identify oneself with Christ and his suffering.

Like several have mentioned this is a huge issue that divides denomination. This was one of Martin Luter's ninety-five thesis that were nailed on the Catholic church at Wittenburg. He himself was a theologian and catholic minister. This is also one of the great things that lead the puritans and separatist to leave England and then Sweeden. They wanted to be able to practise religion without any interference from the government and the Catholic and Anglican church. History records many great denominations that have sprung up from this and several other primary conflicts with the RCC. Praise God that Luther had the courage and audacity to be a forerunner of the protestant reformantion. If if had not been for him and many other great men of his time we wouldn't even have the freedom to discuss this in an open forum as we are.

As for our family we had a lovely dedication service for my two sons. I really don't think of it as their dedication service, but more as a dedication of my husband and myself to be faithful in raising our children in a way the will instruct them in the ways of God. Our service was a nice prayer service for us as parents as opposed for the salvation of our children.

As a few others have commented on, I do believe that my children were born sinners, ie having a sin nature. Although they have a sin nature I don't believe they are anywhere being an age where they can comprehend the results of their sin. If they were to die today I believe they would go to heaven. This has been a very interesting thread. I thought there would have been more comments from others with differing views.

[Jennifer Z]

Grew up Mennonite here.

Mennonites, whether conservative or liberal, all consider the "Believer's Baptism" or Adult Baptism to be the way to go. We have a parallel to the infant baptism, called confirmation or dedication....basically the same as a baptism sans water...parents and community pledge to raise / help raise and support the child and parents in a Christian atmosphere.

As far as sprinkling or immersion, both are done, just depends on the setting / pastor / baptee (if that's a word). Many Mennonite churches are not built with a baptimal thingy for dunking people in, but there are often baptisms done in rivers and such if someone wants to be immersed. The method of baptism isn't really an issue. It's an "outward sign of an inward commitment", and as such, we don't get to hung up on the symbols.

edited to add:
BTW...Mennonites don't really consider themselves protestant, but rather annabaptist...or the "re-baptised". Adult baptism is a definning article of faith. You are baptised when you reach the age of accountability, and get a "free pass", so to speak, before that.

[barbara]

Interesting discussion! We have been on both sides of this issue and done much research, prayer and soul searching on the subject of baptism. Dh grew up Lutheran and I just grew up as a free spirit!

Our children have all been dedicated to the Lord as infants and the older ones all were baptized when they decided they wanted to. All at different ages, when the Holy Spirit led them. We also believe in a baptism of fire by the Holy Spirit. (That would be symbolic fire! ) Our family has a very earthy spirituality and are very much Spirit-led people in all we do. Our youngest children have not expressed an interest in baptism but do partake of communion with us.

Namaste,
b.

[DaryLLL]

Originally posted by caleb's mommy
Interesting discussion. Darylll, I know I've read Matthew many times before, but I never noticed that verse. What Bible are you using? Do you know Greek or is that footnote in your Bible?

!

Caleb's mommy--

Are you saying you don't have either of those quotes from Matt or Luke in your bible? I've got the Oxford Study Bible.

John the B then relates an allegory of wheat on the threshing floor. I believe back then, you took wheat into a large flat basket, and shook it, or fanned it (air/pneuma/spirit), til the chaff was all separated from the good grain. then burned the chaff. So will Christ, acc to this, blow off our worldly natures and then burn that off, so we are left pure and in the spirit--real eternal life, here on earth now, we don't have to wait. "Life" in the Bible, refers to life in the spirit, and "death" refers to: not after our bodies die, but just living in the body with no knowledge (gnosis) of our spirit nature/connection to Christ/God right here and now.

Besides the Bible, I have been reading many other related texts. Recently I have been reading the Jesus Mystereies. the authors of that have pointed out much of the Greek to me, as well as Hebrew and a bit of Latin. It so helps to see what the original words were! We really get cheated when we just take the contemporary trans for granted as the right one. Politics has influneced trans many times, in many ways. (eg: a "virgin shall give birth" was actually a young woman shall give birth-- not an unusual occurance! And the parting of the Red Sea was really the Reed Sea. but in that case, i think they were symbolizing a birth of the Israelites, hence Red for blood of labor.)

right now I am not taking any of the words of the Bible, OT or NT or Apocrypha or gnostic texts (banned as heresy, even tho they were the original xians), literally, or even as straight history. I find them more spiritual and enlightening when taken as mystical myths, comments on our worldly natures, and how to get more into the spirit side/closer to god. I don't take the idea of heaven and hell seriously, but with a grain of salt. I think there is much evidence for reincarnation in the bible/gnostic texts and Eastern religions, which influenced xianity as well. Jews don't believe in original sin, so why do xians?

[caleb's mommy]

Thanks for the information, Darylll. I do have that verse in my Bible (NIV version) but since it's a translation and doesn't have the original Greek, I missed the part about the air. I wasn't sure if it was noted in your Bible or if you knew from another instance that they were the same word. Thanks for the references. I wish that I had time to study both Greek and Hebrew to avoid some of the problems with translation, but don't really have the time now. I do, however, enjoy hearing from and reading books by those who are more educated on the language and/or history of the Bible. I'm doing a lot of soul searching spiritually. This past year I finally admitted to myself that I didn't believe what my church believes, so I found another (UU) church and am trying to re-construct what I do believe, at least in general terms. I'm okay with not having all of the answers, but some would be nice. I'll have to pm you sometime because I'm getting off topic.