Spinoff: Family-friendly nudist resorts

[Dragonfly]

I'm really interested in a discussion on this.

As I said on the other thread, I have no problems with nudity. We embrace nudity around here. Ds is even frequently naked in our back yard - I know my neighbors and it's not visible from the street.

There are a few reasons that I can think of off the top of my head that I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing my child to a family-friendly nudist resort.

First, we wouldn't know the other people there. Do they do background checks to make sure they don't admit sex offenders? Even if they do, many sex offenders are never convicted and, so, wouldn't be caught by a background screening. I think I would feel very concerned that some person was eyeing my child with ill intent.

The other thing that I would be concerned about is that I would be sending mixed messages to my child re: boundaries. I want my child to recognize that his body is beautiful and nothing to be ashamed of but also that his body is his own. I also want him to know that it's not a good idea to share our bodies with everyone as not everyone has the most upstanding intentions. So, if I'm trying to help him work through this but then bringing him to a place where we are hanging out nude in front of people we have never met... it just seems like mixed messages.

So, those are my feelings, but I'm open to amending them as public nudity isn't a concept I think a whole lot about - well, not in this particular scenario, anyway.

For those of you who would feel comfortable involving your children in this sort of recreation, what is your reasoning? How do you reconcile it with teaching your children about appropriate boundaries with their (and other people's) bodies?

[zipperump-a-zoomum]

Well, I would never go if my kiddos felt uncomfortable- so that would not contradict the boundaries issue.
Also, people in nudist colonies (in my understanding) don't go around touching each other in inappropriate ways. Actually, I think they're pretty touchy ( :LOL ) about the whole thing not being sexual.

As far as the sex offender thing goes, I don't think that you're likely to see more sex offenders at a nudist colony than in the general populace. I certainly wouldn't let my kids roam around without me, just like I wouldn't at say, an amusement park.

I can't say it's something I'll ever do, but to each her own, eh?
Kaly

[flyingspaghettimama]

I am watching these threads with interest. I grew up with a family member who was an avid nudist, and insisted on it for everyone in the family, because it was natural, we didn't need to be ashamed of our bodies, yada yada. Har, not in the part of the country where WE lived! People wore clothes 'cos it's cold!

The didactic ideology of it did not allow us to refuse it, even when some of us children moved into a stage where we did want greater bodily privacy and wanted very much to be covered. We went to nudist places, and I felt very, very uncomfortable being naked around other adults, as a child. There were always some who would look a little too long and you'd get the creepy vibes. Kids will pick up on it. I am very into my bodily privacy now as an adult, and find it a useful thing to communicate with my child.

I understand there are probably many people who would listen to their children's words and actions (i.e. wanting bathroom privacy, covering their bodies if someone comes into the room) and feelings and not try to manipulate or guilt their kids about "hangups" or whatever. It was the 70s and 80s, you know. People were all about hangups and freeing from the chains of conformity, yada. Some people just took it a little too far the other way.

[nicole lisa]

We had (they moved last year) next door neighbours whose family run a family nudist resort and the kids (5, 7, 9, 16) love going to their nanas cause it means they don't have to get dressed in the morning. The 7 year old boy loves that part about it.

I would take DS if we ever had the opportunity. He's almost 5 and not al all interested in bathing suits so the beach near us is his nudist resort for the time being. Nude resorts are really strict about touching and sexualizing nudity so I wouldn't worry about that.

I don't think boundary confusion would arise with my son, cause he's clear on the whole your body is your own and you get to say who touches you thing. That goes for DP and I as well. We get to decide if we're not wanting to be hugged, touched regardless of who it is or intent. Sometimes we're all just touched out. So just because someone can look at you that doesn't mean anyone can touch you and that's whether you're nude or not, and just because someone is lookign at you doesn't mean it is sexual. There's lots of times I am out and about running errands and I am being looked at (as everyone is) for whatever reason and if I find the staring offensive or uncomfortable then I don't hang around, or I ask the person what's up. We send the same message to our son.

[AngelBee]

: I have never really thought about this.

[nicole lisa]

oh, I was just thinking about being a nude teen. My closest girlfriends and I would take a week or so up at a cottage ever summer as soon as one of us could drive (16) and we would all spend the time lakeside nude tanning, talking, eating. We were all comfortable and in the evening when we'd go into town we'd usually end up meeting a group of guys (big tourist area so people we always coming and going) and after hanging out we'd all go back to the cottage for swimming, beers, whatever. Despite skinny dipping it was always clear whether it was sexual or not, and nudity never once was mistaken for that. Maybe because we were a group of girls really comfortable in our skin and had an air of that about us, but it was always clear to the guys and us if people were interested in getting together or just some skinny dipping among friends. Rarely was it ever all one or the other. Some might hook up, others not, but no one ever crossed boundaries that were apparent.

In fact, the times I ahve been assaulted had nothing to do with nudity. Always clothed midning my own business.

I think if children are raised with clear personal boundaries then those will stick whether clothes are on or off.

Man, I forgot until this post how much fun those times were. I miss my girlfriends.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

The other thing that I would be concerned about is that I would be sending mixed messages to my child re: boundaries. I want my child to recognize that his body is beautiful and nothing to be ashamed of but also that his body is his own. I also want him to know that it's not a good idea to share our bodies with everyone as not everyone has the most upstanding intentions. So, if I'm trying to help him work through this but then bringing him to a place where we are hanging out nude in front of people we have never met... it just seems like mixed messages.

:

I don't see what possible good could come of it -- no advantages what so ever, and some possible harm. If you see advantages, what are they? This is something I've never thought about before.

Why would parents choose to spend their vacation time and limited financial resources so their kids would see a bunch of naked people and walk around naked in front of strangers? I don't have a problem with nudity, I just don't get the point of a nude vacation for kids. It seems like there are so many better options.

I do understand that some kids (esp. little boys) feel way different about being nude than my girls do. The other thing I don't understand is what a family would do if they had made plans and reservations and then a child changed their mind about wanting to go, or got there and decided it just wasn't working for them.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by nicole lisa

I think if children are raised with clear personal boundaries then those will stick whether clothes are on or off.

I think so, too. I'm curious, though, about how a young child might perceive the messages about personal boundaries that we give them (i.e., your body is your own; you should only share your naked body if you want to; genitals are private, for you, only, etc.) if they are exposed (pardon the pun ) to an environment where they are naked in front of people they don't know and those people are naked in front of them. It almost has a ring of "Do as I say, not as I do" (not exactly, but it's the most appropriate comparison I can think of right now).

I'm thinking of the scenarios my son and I go through:

Me: "Who can look at or touch your penis?"
Him: "Me, mommy, daddy, and the doctor if mommy or daddy are with me."

We also go through scenarios about touching and seeing other people's genitals (and allowing people to put things in his mouth, which is important but not exactly relevant here).

Those scenarios wouldn't really work, though, if I were taking him to nudist resorts because people would be looking at him and he would be looking at them. So how would I explain those boundaries, then, that would help him stay safe in the everyday world?

About the assault thing: I know that nudity has pretty much nothing to do with sexual assault. And I can't imagine that a sexual assault would take place in a nudist resort if a child were carefully supervised. That's not so much my concern, though. My concern would be more about a person finding sexual gratification by watching my son walk around nude or by feeling as though he were watching them and, perhaps, being drawn to my son in such a way that they would go one step further and try to take him. (Yes, I'm a little paranoid, but it's not as though this doesn't happen.) I know that's nothing I can control in the everyday world and that this could just as easily happen when he's clothed but nudity does add something here... and, combined with the boundaries issue, it seems a little like tempting fate.

I understand about nudist resorts having very firm rules against sexualizing nudity but, let's face it, they can't police people's thoughts and can't even police everyone's actions.

Still thinking about this.... thanks for the thoughtful responses so far.

[Starr]

I personally would NEVER take my child to a nudist resort. I agree that I feel it sends mixed messages, its easy as adults to know the difference but to explain it to a child is beyond me. I have no problem with children running around naked around the house and such but to bring them to a reosrt specifically for this purpose is beyond me. Also I'm equally as concerned with strangers and pedophiles looking at the children as I am with (for lack of better term) forcing your child to look at other people naked. I feel that the minimum age be 18 to enter into these clubs. That way everyone is of age and the kids can decide for themselves. I would have to say that if someone were to bring their child who clearly made it obvious they did not want to go, to be exposed or to look at others, and the parents made them go anyway I would consider it child abuse. I know that most mommas here who do participate in this kind of activity would never force their child into it, but I still question the motives of other people who may. I hope I did not offend anyone if this is the lifestyle they choose I just wanted to emphatically explain why I would not participate in such.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

About the assault thing: I know that nudity has pretty much nothing to do with sexual assault. And I can't imagine that a sexual assault would take place in a nudist resort if a child were carefully supervised.

same here. My concern is that spending time in a nudist camp would make my child easier prey for a child molestor OUTSIDE the camp.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by Starr

I would have to say that if someone were to bring their child who clearly made it obvious they did not want to go, to be exposed or to look at others, and the parents made them go anyway I would consider it child abuse. I know that most mommas here who do participate in this kind of activity would never force their child into it, but I still question the motives of other people who may.

I guess that would be a question then: if at the family-friendly resorts, if one child feels more comfortable in clothing, is it allowed? My understanding is/was that clothing is never allowed - by the rules - except for functionality (i.e. maybe swim diapers in the pool or diapers in general). I think clothing-optional seems a little more individual-friendly.

I can understand how you feel about the child being placed in a precarious position by their parents, as I was; and from experience some nudist parents feel like clothing is an artificial oppression or hangup forced by society.

[mamakay]

While I'm sure that 99% of the people there would be good, normal people, I can't help but wonder if predator types might be drawn to such places...it would make me uncomfortable.
OTOH, I do wish that nudity was more "normalized".

[Greaseball]

Do they do background checks to make sure they don't admit sex offenders? Even if they do, many sex offenders are never convicted and, so, wouldn't be caught by a background screening. I think I would feel very concerned that some person was eyeing my child with ill intent.

Pedophiles are dangerous to fully-clothed children, too. Nudity is not the problem. My children (statistically) come into contact with pedophiles each day - at the playground, at the grocery store, the library, etc. I deal with this by never letting a stranger touch them or be alone with them. As far as them looking at my kids with intent, I can't stop that no matter where I go, and making my kids wear clothes won't stop it either.

I fully intend to do some family-friendly nude recreation. My only concern is DIAPERS!!! :LOL I don't think the nudist resorts want non-toilet-trained kids running around nude.

I'd also like to wait until my kids are old enough so they know not to point and say "Look, a butt!" the way my oldest does when she sees me around the house.

[Willowrose]

I would NEVER take my children to a nudist resort. I want to raise my kids to love and respect their bodies. I want them to treat their bodies as beautiful, but private(no one outside of mommy & daddy or doctor should see or touch). I have no problems with them being nude at our home. In fact, older son strips down all the time due to sensory issues with clothes. I just see no good that could result in bringing children to a nudist resort.
It would be great if we lived in a society where nudity was normal. But we don't. So, even though *we* might have a different concept of nudity, you have NO idea what kind of people that you might attract at a nudist resort.
The thought of people possibly oggling my children(or ANY child for that matter) sickens me. I would never put them in a position where someone would have the opportunity to do that.
I think a lot of people think that the *only* people who would go to a nudist resort would share their philosophy on nudity. I venture to guess that these resorts get the occasional sicko who is only there for viewing pleasure. If there is even a slim possiblity of that, I could not take my child. The fact is, that is a very real scenario.

Besides which, I think that a child should be fully able to comprehend their consent to a nudist resort. I firmly believe that a child under 18 would be unable to do that.

[nicole lisa]

I guess I am confused why it's a struggle to see what good can come of it...the same good that comes with nudity in Europe, and for the most part it's not at resorts but on public beaches so if you lived there you would be exposing your children to it.

I think it's beneficial for children to grow up without shame when it comes to their bodies and it'd also be great if kids were exposed to bodies of all sizes, shapes and colours. I want my son to understand that not all women look like the cover of a Maxim magazine and when they don't it's natural and beautiful. And if I had a daughter I would want her to see for herself that there is no need to cover your body just because it's not a size 2 or because a woman isn't 20 anymore. When I go to ther beach I see only very specific body types lounging around and then I see a whole lot more women with the body type that it the majority in North America (size 10-12 and up) covering up with big t-shirts or not wearing a suit at all and standing at the edge of the water in shorts and a t-shirt while the kids swim.

When I was a teen and had a membership to the Y I remember how empowering and freeing it was to be in the change room after working out and seeing women in their 80s changing and pregnant women and large women and small women and women with disabilities. All their bodies were different in one way or another and it didn't matter. Some had stretch marks, or C-Sections scars. Some were wrinkly and some has excess skin. Some were tight and very muscular and some were very skinny. And I remember feeling free and comfortable with my body. It was huge for me.

DS has grown up around that as we swim at the Y and he's not big enough yet to go into the mens' changeroom alone. I am glad he gets to see bodies in their natural state and without being posed. Bodies just drying off, changing, pulling up socks all the while women are talking with one another and telling stories and getting to know one another.

I don't want my son growing up with the only nude images of women being the ones he sees in movies or in magazines. It's unrealistic and it hurts males as well as females.

The idea of consent has come up a couple of times and I can not imagine anyone forcing a kid to go anywhere against their will. It's not just about nudist resorts, there. I wouldn't make DS go to Disneyworld (and god I hope he never wants to go so I don't have to force myself, lol) or to eat somewhere he doesn't want to. I wouldn't force him to do a lot of things and I think, especially here that you'd be hard pressed to find that. Thing is DS is always nude, sees DP and I nude a lot, and is around nude women and men (if DP takes DS swimming) enough that going to a nude resort wouldn't be subjecting him to anything he's not already comfortable with, and I don't for a moment think he's not already come into contact with pedophiles even when he's nude, but DP or I are always there and he's safe. I don't care what's in people's thoughts. If soemone has thought things about DS or me or DP we are none the wiser. What we don't know in this area doesn't hurt us.

The other point i have about consent is that as parents we consent for our children all the time. DS just had his first dentist appointment and I had to fill out a consent form for the dentist to perform any proceedures he may need to, to clean DS' teeth. If your child goes to school you have signed consent forms for him or her to go on field trips or attend a speaker's presentation in the gym. When I take DS to the movies I am giving my consent for him to see something rated adult accompaniment required if under 13. Every day I consent for my son because he is not able to legally consent for himself at his age. If you don't see bodies as private or sexual and needed to be covered than there's no difference between the consent to ride the school bus and the consent to attend a family vacation. If nudity (and not just the familys') is not out of the ordinary in your family life than it's not different for the kids.

I think there are far more mixed messages to a child who is raised hearing there is nothing wrong with bodies or anything shameful about them but they have to be covered, because other people may look at them and think shameful things. I also would never give my child a list of people who get to see/touch him nude, cause anyone on that list could be a potenital abuser and giving a kid a list wouldn't allow the child to speak up if his Dr. or her uncle touched them inappropriately cause it must be oK, mom and dad OK'd that person. DS knows he gets to say who touches him, regardless of who they are.

I guess I view my body as no more special or scared than any other body out there. I love it and it does amazing things: runs fast, carries my heart and lungs and brain around (I need those daily), allows me to grow and hold and carry my son, helps me make meals, eat, type, swim, dance, have sex etc. It's amazing like all bodies of all abilities are amazing, but for me it's not sacred in a private way, unless someone and I choose to engage in something intimate. It is beautiful as all bodies are and it's completely mine but others seeing it in its normal, every day functioning does not take away anything from it or make it any less special.

[Dragonfly]

Thanks for such a thoughtful post!

About this:

Originally Posted by nicole lisa

I also would never give my child a list of people who get to see/touch him nude, cause anyone on that list could be a potenital abuser and giving a kid a list wouldn't allow the child to speak up if his Dr. or her uncle touched them inappropriately cause it must be oK, mom and dad OK'd that person. DS knows he gets to say who touches him, regardless of who they are.

Just for clarity, my son knows this as well. If he doesn't want us or a doctor when we're around seeing him or touching him, we always respect that. And I don't think there's any danger of him not being able to speak up for even being subject to abuse because our list is very exclusive - me, his dad, or a doctor if I or his father are around. We always make sure to clarify that.

I'm interested in knowing what sort of dialogue you do have with your son. How do you (or do you at all) talk about appropriate/inappropriate touching? It's one thing to say that your child knows that he gets to say who touches him but, in practicality, even self-confident children are molested. Children don't always feel they can say no to a molester, even if they've been raised knowing they can. Molestors tend to trick children into believing it's okay for them to touch - that they have some good reason. I feel like providing my son with a list gives him a solid feeling about when it's actually okay... it makes the decision-making a lot easier for him.

The rest of your post, I sincerely appreciate. I'm going to think about it more and try to see if I might be giving my son a complex about his body in some way. :LOL I know that I have body hang-ups, though I try like mad to keep them from being apparent to my son. But it's always been a struggle for me to figure out how I can balance protecting my son (or equipping him with the tools that will allow him to protect himself) with helping him to keep a healthy feeling about his body.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by nicole lisa

I think there are far more mixed messages to a child who is raised hearing there is nothing wrong with bodies or anything shameful about them but they have to be covered, because other people may look at them and think shameful things.

One thing: I would never tell my son that the above is the reason he has to stay clothed. When he wants to go on a public nudity spree (which has been known to happen), I explain to him that there are rules in the place we're in that everyone has to wear clothes. It's not my rule, it's the rule of whatever place we are.

[Starr]

:

[Greaseball]

I think if the child wants to go to the resort and wants to be naked, that's good enough for me as far as consent goes. Are resorts clothing-optional or clothing-absolutely-not-allowed? If clothes were not allowed at all, I wouldn't go. I've been to a few clothing-optional places and sometimes I opted to wear clothes. I like to have the choice.

Respect for one's body means different things to different people. For me, it means I like my body and I want to show it to those who want to see it.

If some of you don't want others ogling your child, do you take them to the beach or playground?

[nicole lisa]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

I'm interested in knowing what sort of dialogue you do have with your son. How do you (or do you at all) talk about appropriate/inappropriate touching? It's one thing to say that your child knows that he gets to say who touches him but, in practicality, even self-confident children are molested. Children don't always feel they can say no to a molester, even if they've been raised knowing they can. Molestors tend to trick children into believing it's okay for them to touch - that they have some good reason. I feel like providing my son with a list gives him a solid feeling about when it's actually okay... it makes the decision-making a lot easier for him.

Oh, I totally agree that even self-confident children are molested. Absolutely. I guess I just feel self-confidence, particularly when it comes to his body, is just one more thing he can put in his toolbox. Will it prevent it? That's not a certainty at all, but it could be one more thing which aids him in keeping himself safe (i'm not just thinking about adult-child molestation but of relationships he finds himself in with his peers or lovers as he grows).

My son's 4.5 so we talk about his body and his rights and our bodies and our rights and that any unwanted touch can and is inappropriate. We model this with him by letting him know when we're not up for hugs or touching and by listening to him when we ask for a hug or a kiss and he says no. We also don't feign sadness when he doesn't want a kiss or to kiss or hug etc, because we don't want him feeling like he has to give in out of guilt. It's very important for us we don't create an environment where he is enoucrgaed to accept manipulative attempts for his affection and make sure grandparents, uncles aunts etc get this. And if they don't we give him an opportunity to deal with it and if he's uncertain of what to say we let him know in front of them that it's OK to say he doesn't want a hug or kiss or to give a hug or kiss. So we help him with the words when he's unsure, and later we talk about it.

We do talk about appropriate and inappropriate touching on top of letting him know any unwanted touch is inappropriate to the person being touched. We have talked about what's socially acceptable (hugging, shaking hands, patting backs, kissing) among the friends and family in our lives and what's not (touching penis, vulva, hitting, pulling hair, spitting, anything violent or sexual), but we tend not to dwell on a list of appropriate/inappropriate cause we'd sure hate to have the one thing we didn't put on the list be the situation
he's confronted with, and some socially appropriate touchng can be inappropriate in a certain situation. So we tend to keep it to any unwanted touch is inappropriate.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

Just for clarity, my son knows this as well. If he doesn't want us or a doctor when we're around seeing him or touching him, we always respect that. And I don't think there's any danger of him not being able to speak up for even being subject to abuse because our list is very exclusive - me, his dad, or a doctor if I or his father are around. We always make sure to clarify that.

This interests me because I fully expect at some time my son will be having his Dr. appointments without me present. So it becomes essential for us as parents to give our children the confidence they need, as they're growing, to speak up for themselves or tell someone if an assault ever happens and we aren't there as gatekeepers. And if our children play sports, especially in the teen years when we won't be in the changerooms, a coach may often be present while the team is changing.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

I know that I have body hang-ups, though I try like mad to keep them from being apparent to my son. But it's always been a struggle for me to figure out how I can balance protecting my son (or equipping him with the tools that will allow him to protect himself) with helping him to keep a healthy feeling about his body.

It's a struggle for most of us, especially those of us in North America. We live in such a screwed up society where nude scenes in movies means a R rating but not violent scenes and that effects most of us and how we view bodies and nudity. And some days I am just not there myself with my own body (I have friends that with their talk of food and size issues can send me into a tailspin for days not matter how comfortable I've been feeling), but I am committed to raising DS comfortable with all bodies and bodies in their natural state as much as possible. He changes with my parents when we're visiting, not by design but because he won't leave their side when we're there (we only get to see them a few times a year) and he sees DP and I and people changing at the gym.

We haven't taken DS to a nude resort but I can't say I would never other than right now because we can't afford a vacation. Who knows if or when that'll change. But I have no problem with taking DS to a clothing optional beach - there are a couple near me and really, I have never seen anyone looking too long or checking anyone else out, adult or child. Most people there are families or friends and busy with their own socializing and activities to notice each other, just like at parks and beaches where clothes are mandatory and peole are hanging out in their own groups.

Thanks, Dragonfly for keepign the conversation going. It's interesting and I always think these conversations help us (the general us) sort our our own thoughts as we respond and get to really know our opinions. It's helpful.