I give up

[Eman'smom]

I don't know what to do, I emailed my sister sent her the letter (see previous post) this is her response.


I guess my first question to you is why do you feel
that I should justify my decision to you? Why is this
such a strong, skin must stay on, issue to you?
It has NOT been has very been this huge issue for me
or R and the amount of time I have actually
considered this issue, isn't one I need to fill my
time. I have a job and health issue of my own I need
to worry about. In no way am I mad at you. Everyone is
entitled to opinion, you and D don't do religion,
but do I push the benifits of having it for your
child. No, each there own. I read the material you
sent, I feel it would be better for him emtionally and
physical to have it done. I don't want him to be
ridiculed, teased, left out or embarassed, I don't
want to spend hours cleaning and teaching him to
clean. I don't want him to have to have it done later
and really remember the pain, I don't want him to pass
infections to women. Does D hate is family for
doing it to him? Does he remember it everyday, and
wish they hadn't done it to him. It not the end of the
world, it not the most important decision I will make
for my child. I want him healthy and happy no matter
what, and will do what i feel is in his best interest.




She clearly hasn't read or thought about it and doesn't want too, I can't believe I'm related to this person. I'm going to cry now.

[calngavinsmom]

s to you! I agree, if that is the way she is thinking, there is no way she is educated on this issue. I'm so so sorry I don't know if I would bother to continue with this, it seems like a lost cause if they don't see it as something important enough to even spend an hour doing some reading. How sad for their little boy.

Take care,
Tara

[mamakay]

I guess my first question to you is why do you feel
that I should justify my decision to you? Why is this
such a strong, skin must stay on, issue to you?

Tell her! She's talking about sexually mutilating her baby!
(I still think you should show up at her house with a circ video...then she might "get" why you care so much....)

I don't want him to be
ridiculed, teased, left out or embarassed, I don't
want to spend hours cleaning and teaching him to
clean. I don't want him to have to have it done later
and really remember the pain, I don't want him to pass
infections to women.

Point by point, I'd go over with her one more time why this is total nonsense. She has got to come to terms with the fact that each and every one of her "reasons" is based in myth and not reality.

[~Megan~]

I'd say, "It matters to me because he is my nephew and I too want the best for him. Its a painful procedure that I don't want any child to have to endure."
The consisely address each issue point by point
"I don't want him to be
ridiculed, teased, left out or embarassed" in the US its 50/50 now and going down every year. If he has it done he will become the minority.
" I don't
want to spend hours cleaning and teaching him to
clean" It requires no more care or cleaning than female genitalia
" I don't want him to have to have it done later
and really remember the pain," the chance that he will have to have it done later are 1/1000
" I don't want him to pass
infections to women" this is very uncommon. The penis is less likely to harbor infection than the vulva, its more likely to be the other way around whether or not he's circumcised

[wagodog]

First off, to you. I understand how painful a time this must be for you. That being said, I apologize for this post in advance. I'm feeling a bit : after reading her response.

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

this is her response.


Why is this such a strong, skin must stay on, issue to you?
It has NOT been has very been this huge issue for me or R and the amount of time I have actually considered this issue, isn't one I need to fill my time.

Truth be told, it shouldn't be an issue for any single one of you. It's the boy's body and his issue/non-issue. If it's NOT a huge issue for them, then why are they advocating cosmetic surgery? Since they ARE advocating cosmetic surgery, why AREN'T they doing the research as they would w/ any other surgical procedure?

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

I have a job and health issue of my own I need to worry about. ... I don't want him to be ridiculed, teased, left out or embarassed,

Since she has a health issue to deal with, did she or anyone else bring this health issue upon her? If someone else did, is she upset at that person for doing so? What if there ARE complications w/ the circ or what if - and this is a very probable what if - your nephew later realizes what was taken away from him? As the times, they are a changin', what if he later finds out that not only has he lost something, he's also now faced w/ women that know the difference and find him to be odd, disgusting, etc. ( I apologize for that - just throwing back what I see as the reverse argument.) Will the nephew be happy w/ your sister for bringing that upon him for no good reason?

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

you and D don't do religion, but do I push the benifits of having it for your child. No, each there own.

Why on earth do people bring up the religion argument? My parents shoved Catholicism down my throat but what am I now? Who knows? That's the beauty of it - I can choose whatever religion I want to follow. Circumcision? Sorry - no turning back now.

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

I read the material you sent,

Sorry. As others have pointed out, I don't buy this.

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

I feel it would be better for him emtionally and physical to have it done. ... I don't want him to be ridiculed, teased, left out or embarassed, ...I want him healthy and happy no matter

How is it emotionally better for someone to know that his parents had all the information in the world and had someone advocating hard for him yet, still chose to subject him to cosmetic surgery at a day old? How is it emotionally better for him to later have sex w/ less than the full gamut of his feelings/sensations? How is it physically better for him to have lost a fully functioning part of his body? I know that there's been no direct correlation, but I have to wonder about why the US is the largest consumer, by a large margin, of ED drugs. Is he going to be happy w/ all of this?

Where in the world are all these locker rooms where people get teased? I went to a middle school w/ mandatory showers after gym. Did I ever get teased? NOPE!! Did I ever hear of others getting teased for this? NOPE!! I sometimes shower at the gym these days. Ever get comments? What do y'all think?

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

I don't want to spend hours cleaning and teaching him to clean. I don't want him to have to have it done later and really remember the pain,

She doesn't want to spend hours cleaning it but guess what? Instead, she's going to have to clean a bloody wound for weeks!! She's going to have to teach him to clean himself regardless of his circ status. I fear for any daughters as I'm guessing they're not going to be taught how to clean themselves? And BTW, my parents didn't teach me to clean since it isn't really all that hard!!

Why do people assume that these boys are going to HAVE to have it done later? How many men in the rest of the world HAVE to have it done later? As for the remembering part of it, I don't believe that the infant escapes from the procedure unscathed.

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

I don't want him to pass infections to women.

No rebuttal for this one since I have to face facts that circumcised men NEVER contract STD's.

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

Does he remember it everyday, and wish they hadn't done it to him.

If he had it done later and knew what he actually lost, I'm thinking that yes, he would wish that it hadn't been done to him. I understand why many men choose NOT to remember it everyday. Aside from restoring, what can they do about it now?

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

It not the end of the world, it not the most important decision I will make for my child.

I truly feel sorry for this child if that is how she/they think.

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

will do what i feel is in his best interest.

Then LEAVE HIM ALONE!!!!

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

I can't believe I'm related to this person. I'm going to cry now.

I felt/feel the exact same way about my brother.

[pdx.mothernurture]

Wow, reading that was heartbreaking.

I think I'd tell her that while she doesn't have to justify her decision to me, she may very well one day have to justify it to her son...and it is obvious from her most recent response to you that she is still basing her decision to circumcise on rumors and misinformation. The foreskin is normal, it comes 'standard', and she *owns* it to her son to be fully informed before she has this done to him.

And then I'd go point by point through all the false reasons she just stated.

Tell her that circumcision removes 1/3-1/2 of the penile skin system, including 3-4 feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10,000-20,000 specialized nerve endings...and will grow to become 15 square inches of tissue in an adult.

Only 55% of baby boys are being circed in hospitals as of 2003 (It's probably 50/50 this year), and 80% of the world's men are intact. If she leaves him intact-he'll be in good company!

...

HTHs...I don't blame you for being sad/upset/frustrated.

Jen

[Quirky]

I am really sorry. It might be worth another shot but it sounds as if their minds are firmly closed to reason and compassion. Are there any other relatives you could get to talk to her about this, and do you think she might listen?

We tried and failed to get my BIL and SIL not to circ their son. I am embarrassed to be related to them as well - if you deliberately mutilate your child after reading about what circ is and what it does then IMO you are a crappy parent.

[falcon]

I'd send her a video of the circ procedure to watch (assuming she's never seen a circ, and make sure her dh watches it too). That's what sealed the deal in this house that every baby born to us would stay intact.

[Eman'smom]

Thanks everyone, I'd love more support so just because I'm posting doesn't mean you have to stop


You have all come up with wonderful ideas, the only two I haven't done yet are a video and recruiting more family.

We live very far apart FL for her NM for me, so I can't stop by with a video however I do plan to mail one. I've thought about talking to our mom about it, however even though mom cd'ed EBF co-sleep, organic dieted all of us she still circ'ed my brother. I think mom is starting to realize that it was wrong (but that is what you did then). I told mom once that I'd sent sis info on not circing, mom's basic answer was why, it's covered by insurance so it's needed : She seemed real taken aback when I told her it wasn't covered anymore. We only talked briefly about it, I think if I went off on mom it would have upset her too much. The irony of the whole thing is the man who is technically my father (I haven't see or spoken to him in 12 years because he deceided he'd rather have a girlfriend than a family and left) is intact, he and mom had huge fights about circing my brother. I even remember as a teenager my father talking about how you don't need to cut parts of penis' off. How odd that this man who is so bad in so many ways and I have something in common.


I'm just so, I don't even know what, I mean how can you have part of your childs body cut off and not even think about it.

[Eman'smom]

Oh not that it matters but she isn't at all religious. True dh and I are not. But I bet she hasn't been to church since high school. She was even married by a JP, not that I care, the point is she isn't exactly christian, I think she just felt she needed to bring up that I'm not perfect, which I fully admitted to her by the way.

[eightyferrettoes]

OMG. She just doesn't want to be confused by the facts. I'm so sorry, mama, but sorriest of all for that helpless little baby.

I have a hard time dealing with circed little boys now, and I'd read about it here-- thought folks were overreacting. They're not. It hurts just to look at those damaged little boys.

[paminmi]

I don't know if you have considered this or not, but why not call her? Email is somewhat impersonal. From personal experience, I have found that the folks that I mailed info to as opposed to speaking with personally, were the ones that ended up circumcising.

Face to face or on the phone, you can clearly and concisely rebut her concerns, you are able to cover a lot more ground that way.

I wouldn't judge by her email that her mind is closed. Quite the contrary, by the way she worded it, I think there is hope.

Sometimes there is a lot of resistance because they are fighting so hard to try and believe what they really know is not true. I have seen this over and over again on the (now closed)debate board I have frequented for two years now. Often a parent would come fighting that they were justified in what they did to their son but ending up realizing the truth in the end.

Don't give up on your sister-

Call her!

Hugs,
Pam

[Quirky]

You might be able to enlist your mom, it sounds like. Not to make her feel bad about circing your brother - odds are, back when your brother was born, there was NO info available to your mother as to why circ is a bad thing. She sounds like the crunchy type who would do it differently if she were having a baby today and she had the info we have available to us now.

Also, is "D" in your email your dh? Is he opposed to circ? Maybe he should email them and say, no, I don't hate my family because they didn't know any better, but it's my body, and should have been my decision, and I sure wish they had left my penis alone.

As far as the video, you don't have to mail her a hard copy - check out www.intact.ca for an online video of a circ procedure. Do you think they would watch the Penn and Teller show on circ? Short, funny, profane, and effective....there are copies floating around, someone here could get you one I'm sure.

I sense she's digging her heels in because she's feeling very criticized, like you're making yourself out to be the expert and she's insecure that she's not going to live up to your standards, so she wants to stake out her own decisions and assert her authority....how about say, look, I wouldn't have known this stuff either if someone hadn't told me, doctors are doing a terrible job of educating parents on circ because of financial self-interest, etc. - in other words, critique "them" out there (doctors, whoever) for perpetuating circ rather than your sister - try to make it "us against them."

[Eman'smom]

Originally Posted by Quirky

I sense she's digging her heels in because she's feeling very criticized, like you're making yourself out to be the expert and she's insecure that she's not going to live up to your standards, so she wants to stake out her own decisions and assert her authority....how about say, look, I wouldn't have known this stuff either if someone hadn't told me, doctors are doing a terrible job of educating parents on circ because of financial self-interest, etc. - in other words, critique "them" out there (doctors, whoever) for perpetuating circ rather than your sister - try to make it "us against them."

I tried this in the begining (this is not the first time we have discussed it, we talked about it when she found out she was pregnant, she actually sounded like she might not do it. Then we talked again when she found out she was having a boy, she was leaning toward circing. Over the last two months I've sent info, brought it up etc, etc, and she has always changed the subject. This is all the end of what has been going on for months, this isn't the first step.

[DahliaRW]

Sounds like she needs to talk to Frank about how he feels towards his parents for doing it to him since that's how your nephew may feel years down the road. If you really want to get "extreme", print out the thread about regretting circing their sons. I read just a few of those and could go no further. I don't know how anyone could read those and still circ.

My heart breaks for that little boy. I hope the u/s was wrong and she has a girl (unlikely, but one can hope).

[bell bottom blues]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Tell her! She's talking about sexually mutilating her baby!
(I still think you should show up at her house with a circ video...then she might "get" why you care so much....)


Point by point, I'd go over with her one more time why this is total nonsense. She has got to come to terms with the fact that each and every one of her "reasons" is based in myth and not reality.

Yeah that!

[bell bottom blues]

I really feel your pain. Just reading about her makes me want to shake her, and somehow force her to listen, and drill it into her head that if she does this - SHE IS A BAD MOTHER.

I'm sorry for ranting.

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

I told mom once that I'd sent sis info on not circing, mom's basic answer was why, it's covered by insurance so it's needed : She seemed real taken aback when I told her it wasn't covered anymore.

If it were a worthwhile investment, the insurance companies would all cover it. That's because they have two self interests in this matter. First, they are there first and foremost to make a profit. The lifetime healthcare costs for circumcised males is higher on average that for intact males even if you don't consider the cost of the circumcision procedure. The insurance companies look to see where they will have lower costs during the policy period. They see that if they pay for the circumcision procedure, the later health care costs are going to put them even further from the profit line.

The second self interest is the cost of their policies. Policy premiums are determined by the insurers claims. The lower the claims, the lower they can set their premiums. Insurance premiums are tightly regulated by state insurance departments and the premiums have to reflect the claims. They do this to insure that the insurance companies are profitable enough to have sufficient reserves to pay future claims. Of course, the lower the monthly premiums, the more policies they will sell. It would seem that if their premiums were closely regulated, that all insurance companies would have nearly the same monthly premiums and thus nearly the same profits. However, if one company has a premium that is slightly lower, that may result in selling 25% more premiums and there is the benefit. While the overall profit percentage is almost identical between companies, a 25% increase in the number of policies will mean 25% more to the bottom line and that is what stockholders like to see.

The insurance companies are not dummies. They see that circumcising boys means higher overall health care costs which also means less healthy children.



Frank

[hummingbear]

I don't know what I would feel if my sister had her son circumcised.

It is so sad that the reasons she listed must have been ones that have been addressed in the information you have sent her already. If she is asking why it is so important to you maybe she will listen to that answer. It sounds like what is most important to her is that it is her and her partner's right to decide.

again

OH oh. I feel it coming. Warning, watch out, sarcastic remark about to blurt........

If she doesn't want to "spend hours cleaning and teaching him to
clean" then perhaps she should consider removing his teeth once they come in......... that would save so much more time.

[trmpetplaya]

If it's so important to her that she decide then maybe she should be reminded that it's NOT HER PENIS!!! She seems willing to listen to doctors and such, so I think it would be a good idea (if you haven't already...) to send her some info from sites like doctors opposing circumcision. Maybe even some Jews against circumcision info would help (since she insists on dragging religion into the discussion). But first and foremost it is not her decision to make in the first place. Dh never heard one peep from a classmate in a locker room about his intactness and there was a thread further down about that very argument and how it is not true IRL. We could have all the men who come to this board, circ'd and un, write to your sister about the problems or lack of problems they had with their penises. Seriously. Dh would do it and I bet other husbands and posters would too. Your poor little nephew though... made me so mad to read her response :

love and peace.