WWYD? one last question

[Eman'smom]

If you've been following my saga:


I told my sister I was worried she might not be getting the best information, that I'd like to address her concerns. I stated this all very gentley, saying that the medical profession has there own intrest (us vs them) I told her that her SO could talk to DH that I'd help her with her concerns.


So she tells me she doesn't want to discuss it anymore she knows how we feel she will ask us if she has any questions, but she's done talking and thinking about it.


So what do I do? Do I just accept that she is doing this to her unborn son, and live with it? I'm currently planning something like this " I can not and will not support you in this choice (she has asked for my support of the choice to circ her son) if you do this you clearly aren't the person or mom I thought you were, and leave it at that, maybe to end what relationship we have. I just don't know what to do. This isn't a she didn't know, she is getting pressure from her SO, she is the one that wants to hack up her son.

Off for more crying.

[onlyboys]

It's her choice to do so. If you've done all she's receptive to, and it certainly sounds like you have, then simply be gentle with yourself and know that you tried.

She gets to make this decision for herself. She may regret it, she may hate herself for it later, but her choice is hers to make.

Much light to you.

[DahliaRW]

I think that telling her that you cannot and will not support her choice is reasonable. Then guage how she reacts. There is nothing wrong with not supporting her decision (in fact there is something wrong WITH supporting it IMO).

[njeb]

I agree with the above posters. There's nothing wrong with telling her you cannot support her decision, that you think she's making the wrong one. Who knows? That might shock her into reconsidering her decision when nothing else would.

[hummingbear]

I am so sorry.

My only advice would be to determine your own healthy boundaries and follow them.

For me, I would draw the line between supporting the decision she has made and supporting her. I would definitely not support the decision to circumcise without medical necessity.

[bell bottom blues]

Basically, she's asking for your support to abuse her child. No reasonable person would give it to her.

To paraphrase Dr. Laura (who I sometimes agree with and sometimes don't), social pressure is appropriate to apply to people who do bad things.

I tend to think that you should keep pushing, and let her know that she will be considered a selfish and abusive mother if she does this.

Even though I can't claim complete successes with my close friends - I can definitely say that it has always made an impact. Something does sink in that this is wrong. There's always a seed planted - sometimes it doesn't grow strong enough to prevent them from doing it this time, but it is there and has always had some effect.

You might tell her that if she is determined to do this, she should consider having a mohel do this, and requesting that they remove as little of the foreskin as possible, so that he will only lose perhaps 25% of sensation, as opposed to possibly 80% of sensation.

I always hope that if parents get to thinking about how to minimize the damage, it will occur to them to not do damage at all. But even if they do, it will be less damage than otherwise.

The clamps that mohels use remove less and are less damaging to sensation than the Gomco clamp and Plastibells that the hospitals use. Even if she has a hospital physician or her pediatrician do it, she can request that they remove as little of the foreskin as possible.

[alegna]

This is an issue I have struggled with. My bil and sil had twin boys (bil is dh's twin no less) and planned on circing. I talked to them. Gave them info. They wanted nothing of it. I did some serious soul searching and decided that if they did it I could not have them in my lives. They would know better. They ended up not doing it (I never told them my personal ultimatum as it was... they would hear nothing else on the subject) My sister is at the point of possibly getting married with kids soon to follow. I hold the same ultimatum (though she will know of it if it comes to it) I will not keep people in my life who choose to abuse their children. I simply can't.

good luck

-Angela

[wagodog]

Eman's mom,

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I was in the same situation that you are in now but did not have a chance to have a final word.

Only you will know how far you can comfortably go w/ your sister. I agree w/ PP's about letting her know that you cannot support her decision. How forcefully will be up to you.

Me? If my brother had said that he was done thinking about it and did not want to discuss it further, I would've raised hell. I would've totally ignored his statement and badgered him to no end because the fact of the matter is that he will always be my brother and J will always be my nephew. I then would've gone to my stupid, subservient SIL and given her hell for having neither a mind nor a backbone. It would've been a matter of "do you want to hear it now when you can do something about it or later when you can't?" And I'm still debating about whether to tell my nephew all about it years from now or to wait until he comes asking.

As it turned out, I was only able to give him hell after the fact. I now find myself never totally happy when I see my nephew or hear them talk about him because I know what was done to him and fear for what else has been and will be done to him. This really does pain me. I can deal w/ issues between myself and my brother, but now, I have to face the dilemma of cutting ties w/ my brother and losing a nephew or being civil and not quite so happy. I've chosen the latter as I believe that somewhere down the road, this little guy is going to need me.

I apologize for hijacking/venting here. In the end, I would just like to say, don't hold anything back. If you're like anything like me, you're going to regret it.

[Eman'smom]

Thanks everyone, I've decided to basically hold nothing back, I'm too upset right now to even begin to talk to her, but once I calm down a touch I'm going to let loose. I know it's cold, but I can't deal with her doing this to her son, I can't let it go. I have given her the information, she just "doesn't want to deal with it" I figure I might loose her, but you know what, I'm kind of ok with that I only see her about once a year, talk on the phone a handful of times, it's really just lots of email. The things is I don't see how I can visit, or talk to her again knowing she did this to her son even though she had the info.


It's just so sad and upsetting, I actaully came home from running errands yesterday without running any because I was crying so hard.


I just can't believe that after having the information someone could still do this to their child.

[alegna]

[bell bottom blues]

for your courage.

[MonicaS]

You just want to grab them and shake some sense into them, right?


I feel like I will be in this spot soon. My SIL and bro(my only sibling) are having a boy in Sept. I am sending them some info. They are in a diff state. They wanted to hear nothing of the benefits of breastfeeding when they had my neice 5 yrs ago, they completely stonewalled me in person. I have emailed them a casual, planting a seed type email about circ, but they haven't acknowledged it. SIL has a sis and step-sis that have sons that I would bet big money are circ'd. She does whatever her sis does(such as not even try BFing). I have an uphill battle I'm sure, but this goes way beyond feeding a substandard milk to their baby.

I will also tell them that I will consider them selfish and abusive if they decide to do that to their son. It's my NEPHEW for goodness sake. I get emotionally wrapped up in friends' children regarding this issue. It will be 10 times worse if it ends up happening my own flesh and blood.

[Quirky]

It is so hard when it's your relatives. My BIL and SIL cut their baby boy - born at 35 weeks and 5 pounds! They went home 4 days after he was born and the hospital cut him. Hmmm, breastfeeding didn't work out, wonder why??? (Not that SIL was all that motivated to try.)

We still have contact with them at family gatherings and so forth. DH and his brother aren't close and never have been - two more different men with differing values would be hard to imagine. But much as I would like to just cut them out completely we can't - dh would never stand for it (he's not nearly the intactivist I am although he did really go to bat on this one and was very disappointed in his bro). He's not willing to cause a huge rift in his family over this and family is critically important to him.

But man, if I never saw them again it would be too soon. My nephew is getting close to a year old and I am still blazingly angry.

In good news, though, my little sister is having a boy in August and he will be intact. YAY! My sister and her dh rock.

[AnnMarie]

I would send her some information in the mail, with a copy of that site with pictures of the procedure right on top. I'd also send her a video. I would make it known that you would never support her decision to circ as it's not her decision to make, it's her sons, and you can't support something you KNOW to be abuse. Tell her that you love her, but there is no way you can support her. Tell her that if she loves her son she owes it to him to do the research. After all, what could it hurt? If it's not wrong to do, then reading the information on it can't hurt anything can it?

Good luck. I will be praying for your sister and her son.

[crunchyconmomma]

i just felt you could use a hug-vibe. i was where you are with my very dearest, bestest, bestest friend in the whole wide world - the sister i never had. a woman i always admired for her intelligence and chutzpah, who ended up in a po-dunk town with a loser husband who wanted the boy circ'd so he'd be like everyone else. i hated him. still do, but the negativity comsumes and makes me unhealthy. i was SICK to my stomach for days about the birth and the circ when she called to tell me. and really, it has gotten worse so i have to face the reality that we will probably not be friends much longer. she is giving formula so she can party and go back to work and is not using the sling i bought or reading any of the breastfeeding or AP books i bought her at her request or calling the very best lactation consultant i know to make a better nursing relationship b/c she doesn't want to nurse, i am sure of it.
BUT....you will positively affect at least one family if you don't give up on advocacy. that's what i believe. and rome wasn't built in a day. so cyber-hugs to you from a mom that can relate. we will help someone somewhere. and the pain lessens with time.

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by bell bottom blues

The clamps that mohels use remove less and are less damaging to sensation than the Gomco clamp and Plastibells that the hospitals use. Even if she has a hospital physician or her pediatrician do it, she can request that they remove as little of the foreskin as possible.

I don't mean to nitpick, but is there any evidence to back up this assertion? If your talking about a mogen clamp, it crushes the skin just like a gomco does. And out of all three methods it's my understanding that Plastibells tend to leave the most skin. Am I confused? Can anyone clarify? Thanks!

Jen

[Acksiom]

Originally Posted by sunflower_mommy

I don't mean to nitpick, but is there any evidence to back up this assertion? If your talking about a mogen clamp, it crushes the skin just like a gomco does. And out of all three methods it's my understanding that Plastibells tend to leave the most skin. Am I confused? Can anyone clarify? Thanks!

I'd like to know also.

[bell bottom blues]

Mogen clamp does the least damage!

My information was obtained from John Geisheker (legal counsel for DOC). He did say that the Mogen clamp is the least damaging, and can leave up to 80% of sensation intact.

John said "I know men who would kill to have been circumcised by a Mogen clamp" (as opposed to the Gomco or plastibell that they had).

The Gomco and plastibell can take away as much as 80% of sensation (also info from John).

My midwife was opposed to circ, but for those that wanted to do it, she would advise them to have it done by a mohel, because she knew that they did the least damage.

Mogens, however, have the added risk of bleeding to death. The Gomco and plastibell were devised to stop hemorrhaging.

[Acksiom]

Thanks! Proper source attribution is a must for me. I just have to know things like that.

[Quirky]

I'd still be interested to know if there is a source (medical study) for the idea that 80% of sensation is left intact. Why is that? Is the frenulum not severed? Is less skin taken off? Etc.