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Drinking beer while pregnant - Page 8

post #141 of 151
AFAIK there's never been a study proving the existince of FAS. Identification of a FAS seems to have been an artifact of lack of observer blinding, which was then carried on into the design of further studies. Blinded expert observers have been unable to consistently identify a complex of signs that constitute any particular syndrome from alcohol consumption. About the most that can be said with any reliability (from a combination of epidemiology & animal models) is that well beyond the point of moderate drinking (well in excess of the 2 drinks/day being discussed here as excessive), there is a negative correlation of birth weight to increased alcohol consumption. In other words, among gravid women who are all in the class of heavy drinkers, the more they drink, the smaller the babies tend to be at birth.

Further, the paucity of studies seeking to identify benefits to the offspring from alcohol consumption biases the entire subject. How do we know that abstaining from alcohol during pregnancy or during its 1st trimester is not the cause of defects? (If you naively tried to project the regression line from the heavy drinkers, it would predict that failure to drink daily would lead to IDM-sized babies!) For that matter, how do we know that eating, or abstaining from, licorice or Brussels sprouts or who-knows-what can't be found to be associated with some adverse outcome? None of them have been proven safe at any level either, but because they don't carry any moral baggage, they have not drawn similar fire.

The same can be said of post-natal consumption of alcohol. There's no reason to think children's bodies to be severely intolerant to alcohol.

Robert
post #142 of 151
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post #143 of 151
I might have a glass of wine in labor, or maybe during some night of painful B/H when tea just isn't working.
I don't have an issue with a drink during pregnancy. I have the common sense, and moderation in mind with alcohol..Pepsi or chocolate on the other hand... :
post #144 of 151
well, I know of many kids with FAS and it is not something I care to cause in my own children. I choose not to take in any alcohol at all!

I also have a theory about those europeans. I think that their systems are better equipted to handle alcohol. Ours are not. I dont know what happend but when europeans came to america suddenly alcohol turning into something of nightmares. People drank in excess over and over and over again. I think this did something to our genetic makeup and our abiltiy to deal with alcohol.
That is why there is FAS more so in America then in Europe.

Either way, Alcohol is NOT passing through these lips anytime I am with child.
post #145 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by darsmama View Post
I might have a glass of wine in labor, or maybe during some night of painful B/H when tea just isn't working.
I don't have an issue with a drink during pregnancy. I have the common sense, and moderation in mind with alcohol..Pepsi or chocolate on the other hand... :
OH NO....I know I didn't hear you dis Pepsi........ My hubby gets so mad at me, as it takes a week for me to finish a 20 oz bottle of Pepsi. "I'm saaaavoring it" I tell him.

MrsMoe - did you know that 98% of statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to?
post #146 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachcomber View Post
Pregnant women in the US and by default Canada are policed far too much by doctors, spouses, friends and neighbors. It's bordering on obsessive. It is totally unacceptable that society has been granted this right to monitor, report on and chastise pregnant women. No one is watched as closely as the pregnant woman. We lose self determination because suddenly everyone has a right to comment on everything we put into our mouthes, be it an herbal tea, a vitamin or a morsel of food.
Well said!!!!!
post #147 of 151
Well I have a adopted brother in law who has FAS and I see the effects. I think drinking beer with child is totally wrong. Also if some think that it depends on the chil, that some will get it and some won't, why would you want to take that chance. You get to have a moment of pleasure drinking it but then your child has to suffer a lifetime of difficults. Just not worth it.
post #148 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
AFAIK there's never been a study proving the existince of FAS. Identification of a FAS seems to have been an artifact of lack of observer blinding, which was then carried on into the design of further studies. Blinded expert observers have been unable to consistently identify a complex of signs that constitute any particular syndrome from alcohol consumption. About the most that can be said with any reliability (from a combination of epidemiology & animal models) is that well beyond the point of moderate drinking (well in excess of the 2 drinks/day being discussed here as excessive), there is a negative correlation of birth weight to increased alcohol consumption. In other words, among gravid women who are all in the class of heavy drinkers, the more they drink, the smaller the babies tend to be at birth.

Further, the paucity of studies seeking to identify benefits to the offspring from alcohol consumption biases the entire subject. How do we know that abstaining from alcohol during pregnancy or during its 1st trimester is not the cause of defects? (If you naively tried to project the regression line from the heavy drinkers, it would predict that failure to drink daily would lead to IDM-sized babies!) For that matter, how do we know that eating, or abstaining from, licorice or Brussels sprouts or who-knows-what can't be found to be associated with some adverse outcome? None of them have been proven safe at any level either, but because they don't carry any moral baggage, they have not drawn similar fire.

The same can be said of post-natal consumption of alcohol. There's no reason to think children's bodies to be severely intolerant to alcohol.

Robert
Well at least no one can accuse you of just making stuff up to justify drinking while you're pregnant!

Another thing...doctors and the allopathic medical establishment....they've never been wrong before, right?
post #149 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadfamily6now View Post
well, I know of many kids with FAS and it is not something I care to cause in my own children. I choose not to take in any alcohol at all!

I also have a theory about those europeans. I think that their systems are better equipted to handle alcohol. Ours are not. I dont know what happend but when europeans came to america suddenly alcohol turning into something of nightmares. People drank in excess over and over and over again. I think this did something to our genetic makeup and our abiltiy to deal with alcohol.
That is why there is FAS more so in America then in Europe.

Either way, Alcohol is NOT passing through these lips anytime I am with child.

It is certainly your choice whether to drink alcohol or not. However I think your "theory" is bunk. Do you have any scientific basis for this "theory" of yours, or is it just your way of rationalization?
post #150 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
AFAIK there's never been a study proving the existince of FAS. Identification of a FAS seems to have been an artifact of lack of observer blinding, which was then carried on into the design of further studies. Blinded expert observers have been unable to consistently identify a complex of signs that constitute any particular syndrome from alcohol consumption. About the most that can be said with any reliability (from a combination of epidemiology & animal models) is that well beyond the point of moderate drinking (well in excess of the 2 drinks/day being discussed here as excessive), there is a negative correlation of birth weight to increased alcohol consumption. In other words, among gravid women who are all in the class of heavy drinkers, the more they drink, the smaller the babies tend to be at birth.

Further, the paucity of studies seeking to identify benefits to the offspring from alcohol consumption biases the entire subject. How do we know that abstaining from alcohol during pregnancy or during its 1st trimester is not the cause of defects? (If you naively tried to project the regression line from the heavy drinkers, it would predict that failure to drink daily would lead to IDM-sized babies!) For that matter, how do we know that eating, or abstaining from, licorice or Brussels sprouts or who-knows-what can't be found to be associated with some adverse outcome? None of them have been proven safe at any level either, but because they don't carry any moral baggage, they have not drawn similar fire.

The same can be said of post-natal consumption of alcohol. There's no reason to think children's bodies to be severely intolerant to alcohol.

Robert
What exactly are you basing this on? There have been hundreds of studies done on FAS, many of those have conclusively found certain facial characteristics resulting from heavy alcohol consumption during the time immediately following implantation until about 12 weeks, if I remember correctly.

I thought this argument was about very minor alcohol consumption. I think you're the first to assert that heavy drinking doesn't risk harming your unborn child, and I just can't agree with you there. Yes, doctors are frequently wrong. Yes, medicine frequently makes mistakes. But there have been extensive studies done on FAS/E, and I just don't see what the medical profession stands to gain from arguing that women shouldn't drink while pregnant.

For some of those studies, go to www.pubmed.gov and search FAS.

Here's an interesting one about Italy which I think relates to the discussion:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
post #151 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by natensarah View Post
What exactly are you basing this on? There have been hundreds of studies done on FAS, many of those have conclusively found certain facial characteristics resulting from heavy alcohol consumption during the time immediately following implantation until about 12 weeks, if I remember correctly.
In none of those studies have blinded observers been able consistently to distinguish a facies peculiar to the putative FAS.

Quote:
I thought this argument was about very minor alcohol consumption. I think you're the first to assert that heavy drinking doesn't risk harming your unborn child, and I just can't agree with you there.
You mischaracterize what I wrote. Heavy drinking has been negatively correlated with birth weight, which is usually considered a harm in that it is a risk factor for death and other adverse outcomes. There's some evidence, albeit weaker, of correlation with some specific types of defects. But there's nothing as definitive with alcohol as with a number of commonly understood teratogens.

Quote:
I just don't see what the medical profession stands to gain from arguing that women shouldn't drink while pregnant.
Power. It's psychologic.

Quote:
teresting one about Italy which I think relates to the discussion:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
Will do, thanks.

Now that I've read the abstract (I'm not plunking down $39 for the article, though I mihgt if I come across it in the library), I take this as the bottom line:

"Maternal reports of current drinking were significantly higher for mothers of FASD children than comparison mothers,"

I'd drink more too, if I had a disordered child.

"but reported rates of overall drinking during pregnancy were not significantly different."

Robert
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