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Drinking beer while pregnant - Page 2

post #21 of 151
Mrs. Moe,
I don't want to get into a debate with you, but just to clarify, you wrote:
Quote:
Why would a person need to turn alcohol in order to "relax?" Are there not other forms of relaxation that wouldn't feed the unborn fetus alcohol?
I didn't mean to imply that it should be a woman's sole or even first means of reaching a relaxed state. I was simply providing a counter to your statement that there are not any benefits, besides pleasure, for the mother in drinking alcohol.

And let's just be clear here. We're talking about a beer. Not vodka and hard liquor.
post #22 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonconformnmom

And let's just be clear here. We're talking about a beer. Not vodka and hard liquor.

A drink is a drink. It doesn't matter if it's vodka or rum. One alcoholic beverage is one alcoholic beverage, regardless of it's taste or form. A single serving of beer is equal to a single serving of vodka.
post #23 of 151
there is so much new research coming out on this, but it seems to never make mainstream media. in our current culture, pregnant women are treated like imbeciles that have no common sense (no hot tubs! no soft cheeses! no sushi! no wine!).

they're finding that more and more Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and Fetal Alcohol Effects are coming from a genetic defect that makes these babies more prone to FAS/FAE.

In my eyes, a woman's own common sense rules. If we're talking about an occasional beer, things are fine. I'd even feel ok drinking a glass of wine every night if I was pregnant. However, that is ME. I did have about four glasses of wine in my pregnancy.

This is a HOT topic here at MDC with LOADS of judgment around it. Of course, there is less judgment about eating meat with hormones and antibiotics in it, consuming NutraSweet, or even taking narcotics right before your baby is born for labor.

Bottom rule: mothers should listen to their intution. We live in a culture that thrives on spreading fear and making women - especially mothers - feel as if they are not perfect unless they follow a certain routine....and it creates a ton of guilt and shame.
post #24 of 151
We aren't talking about a single drink once in a while. The poster is questioning a woman who drinks on a regular basis during pregnancy.

Trusting your body is wonderful, but trusting an alcoholic beverage that you willingly put into your body on a regular basis that the fetus is also going to have in it's developing body is a whole new ballpark.

If there is a possible risk, why drink? Is it THAT important that you do?

Over and over I hear mothers who refuse to vaccinate thier children against disease due to possible risks. But drinking is acceptable? :

You haven't seen or interacted with FAS children. I have. This is something that really tugs at my heart strings.


A 2001 - Wayne State University research study
6/7 yr old children of mothers who had as little as one drink a week during pregnancy were more likely than children of non-drinkers to have behavior problems, such as aggressive and delinquent behaviors. This study also found that children whose mothers drank any amount alcohol during pregnancy were more than three times as likely as unexposed children to demonstrate delinquent behaviors.

University of Washington research study
Mothers were social drinkers and an average of about two drinks per day - children ages 7 were given intelligence tests and these children scored seven points lower than the average for all children in the study. By the age 14 these casual light alcohol-exposed children remained more likely to have learning issues, especially in teh areas of mathematics and memory, as well as behavioral issues.
post #25 of 151
why would anyone risk a lower IQ by not breastfeeding?



come on, MrsMoe - you're even talking about an occasional drink here and how "dangerous" it is.

I just don't agree. And that's ok. You don't know my history and you don't know what sort of kids I know and have been around.


I can see you are passionate about this issue. That's appreciated. However, I disagree.

In many places around the world, alcohol is consumed throughout pregnancy. Not in large "let's get drunk" amounts, but frequently with dinner or a meal. Where is the rampant FAS/FAE population there? What about when clean water wasn't readily available and wheat ales were drank by everyone - including kids? Were they all - or mostly - FAS/FAE babies?

I just think there is alot we don't know, of course, but we do treat all pregnant women like idiots in this country. Scare the sh&$t out of them and maybe we can make them feel guilty about how they raise them instead.

I'm not saying that four beers in one week is necessarily a thing to blow off - it could be random or it could be the sign of a problem.
post #26 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamamidwife
point made.

ah, the joys of being on a high horse.

I especially appreciate the assumption that I don't know any kids with FAS or have never been around any. Nice try.

There was no reason for the above comments, it does not pertain to the issue and is not relevant to the thread.

To me, listening to a "woman's intuition" is not logical, as I don't even buy into the idea of intuition. I buy into medical facts, data and research of top universities.
post #27 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito's Mommy
Etolilech, I came in this forum looking for information from my fellow MDCer's, as I was concerned about my neighbor's drinking since I'm not thoroughly educated on the effects of alcohol and pregnancy. I'll thank you for not making such accussations against me in the future .
Give me a break. All I said was it's not considered to be *risky* behavior HERE to have an occaisional drink. Most of Europe and Asia should be deformed, by all accounts. I don't know about you but, I *hate* to be tisk-tisked about such things. Maybe she knows the risks herself. I am pretty sure most women at least have been told to LIMIT alcohol consumption during pregnancy. Is anyone really so obtuse not to?

I understand your concern, and I can feel where the concern is coming from. I just wouldn't be surprised if you perhaps got a bit of an ear full if you choose to discuss it with her, people can be touchy. Instead of seeing it as coming from a place of concern, she may see it as an attack on her. Just as you saw *my* comment as one, (which it wasn't).

Relax. I understand your concern.

Olivia
post #28 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamamidwife
why would anyone risk a lower IQ by not breastfeeding?



come on, MrsMoe - you're even talking about an occasional drink here and how "dangerous" it is.

I just don't agree. And that's ok. You don't know my history and you don't know what sort of kids I know and have been around.


I can see you are passionate about this issue. That's appreciated. However, I disagree.

In many places around the world, alcohol is consumed throughout pregnancy. Not in large "let's get drunk" amounts, but frequently with dinner or a meal. Where is the rampant FAS/FAE population there? What about when clean water wasn't readily available and wheat ales were drank by everyone - including kids? Were they all - or mostly - FAS/FAE babies?

I just think there is alot we don't know, of course, but we do treat all pregnant women like idiots in this country. Scare the sh&$t out of them and maybe we can make them feel guilty about how they raise them instead.

I'm not saying that four beers in one week is necessarily a thing to blow off - it could be random or it could be the sign of a problem.

I see you edited your thread. Thank you for removing your unkind comments.

If you read my above posts, 2 drinks a day for a pregnant woman lwoered children's IQ score by 7 points in a middle class family, as well as the child was more likley than non-exposed children to suffer from behavior disirders.

The issue isn't just FAS or FAE. While FAS may be from drinking large quanities of alcohol, and FAE less amounts than that of a FAS child, each condition is linked to the degree of the pregnant mother's drinking habits. The more she drinks, the worse a child is harmed and the wrose the degree of FAS or FAE. And if ther are any underlying genetic issues, FAS and FAE are far more likely to strike a child.

Again, the mother in question is not drinking on occasion, she is a regular drinker.
post #29 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
There was no reason for the above comments, it does not pertain to the issue and is not relevant to the thread.

To me, listening to a "woman's intuition" is not logical, as I don't even buy into the idea of intuition. I buy into medical facts, data and research of top universities.
I guess you skipped a few journal articles from over here stating that low to moderate alcohol consumption does not pose a significant risk. If you're interested there are some interesting articles from the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynecology in the UK regarding the subject.

I also buy into the *fact* that Europe does not have more children with FAS than North America, despite our "selfish" ways. It's called a cultural difference.

Olivia
post #30 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
listening to a "woman's intuition" is not logical, as I don't even buy into the idea of intuition. I buy into medical facts, data and research of top universities.

Wow, this is quite possibly the saddest thing I have read on here in a very long time. I'm so sorry.
post #31 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamamidwife
Wow, this is quite possibly the saddest thing I have read on here in a very long time. I'm so sorry.

I'm won't apologize for being an atheist. Just the same as I wouldn't tell you I "felt sorry for you that you believed in God or that you were spiritual."
post #32 of 151
MrsMoe, I didn't consider my comments unkind. In fact, it is an element of judgment that you voice when you speak about this issue. It is wrong to make assumptions about people and put yourself above them based on what you *believe* to be true.

I removed them because my beef with your low tolerance on this issue wasn't helpful in the argument in whole.
post #33 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
I'm won't apologize for being an atheist.
: Huh?
post #34 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
I'm won't apologize for being an atheist.

I had no idea that listening to our bodies was against atheism.

Even my dh, who is an atheist/borderline humanist, feels that the only sole source of knowledge he is given is from his own experience and body.

Still, I feel sorry reading that. It has nothing to do with your lack of religion. It has everything to do with the fact that women have intuition for a reason as mothers.

What do you call that funny feeling when you're in a room with someone creepy? Just a "fact"??

As the mother of a daughter, I taught her to ALWAYS listen to her intuition (gut) to keep her safe. This is vital for girls.

But, I digress. I have an issue with your arrogance, and that's the last I'll post on this matter. Should you feel the need to bitch at me some more, please do it through a PM.
post #35 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamamidwife
MrsMoe, I didn't consider my comments unkind. In fact, it is an element of judgment that you voice when you speak about this issue. It is wrong to make assumptions about people and put yourself above them based on what you *believe* to be true.

I removed them because my beef with your low tolerance on this issue wasn't helpful in the argument in whole.
It is unkind when you use words like "high horse"

Or when I state I don't feel woman's inutition is real and I choose to instead reply on medical data and you respond with "quite possibly the saddest thing I have read"

I feel saying these things is unkind. Just being honest with you.

My issue was never against a single occasional drink of alcohol, but that of drinking numerous drinks on a regular basis.
post #36 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamamidwife
I had no idea that listening to our bodies was against atheism.

Even my dh, who is an atheist/borderline humanist, feels that the only sole source of knowledge he is given is from his own experience and body.

Still, I feel sorry reading that. It has nothing to do with your lack of religion. It has everything to do with the fact that women have intuition for a reason as mothers.

What do you call that funny feeling when you're in a room with someone creepy? Just a "fact"??

As the mother of a daughter, I taught her to ALWAYS listen to her intuition (gut) to keep her safe. This is vital for girls.

But, I digress. I have an issue with your arrogance, and that's the last I'll post on this matter. Should you feel the need to bitch at me some more, please do it through a PM.

Intuition means "the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference." So to me, intution isn't logical. That is my belief, and saying that it's the saddest thing you ever heard is mockery of my beliefs or lack thereof. To me, intuition is supernatural.

Listen, I am not a mushy touchy feely sort of person. When I discuss an issue such as this, it is without emotion. I not being judgemental, I am simply disclosing facts with emotional detachment. If my posting style is comming across as cold I apologize, as this is the way I chose to communicate.
post #37 of 151
I totally agree with flapjack's perspective way at the top of this thread. There is a long history of safe alcohol comsumption in pregnancy that has been completely discounted on this side of the pond in an effort to cover the potential for malpractise accusations. It's become almost surreal. Common sense and generations of history now mean nothing compared to the "infinite" wisdom of a group of medical practitioners who have only been seriously handling pregnancy and birth for about 150 years. Yet these medical professionals assume (and are treated with) an air of the divine. We are expected to defer to them in all things to do with our pregnancies and if we don't, our commitment to our babies and even our sanity is questioned. It really galls me.

Pregnant women in the US and by default Canada are policed far too much by doctors, spouses, friends and neighbors. It's bordering on obsessive. It is totally unacceptable that society has been granted this right to monitor, report on and chastise pregnant women. No one is watched as closely as the pregnant woman. We lose self determination because suddenly everyone has a right to comment on everything we put into our mouthes, be it an herbal tea, a vitamin or a morsel of food.
post #38 of 151
:

Perfectly said beachcomber!!
post #39 of 151
Thanks for the kudos, Andreac.
This is, as you may have guessed, a bit of a hot button issue for me.
post #40 of 151
I'm just so sad for the European women of whom the majority consume alcohol during pregnancy and consequently the majority of their babies are born with FAS or other ailments due to alcohol consumption. Why the heck will European doctors realize that they're damaging 90% of their babies!?!? I mean, Europe will just be a wasteland in 10 years or so!!!

From: http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/27000506/ and hundreds of other European websites.
Quote:
Why should I limit the amount I drink when I am pregnant?

If you have one or two drinks of alcohol (one or two units), once or twice a week, it is unlikely to harm your unborn baby. However, the amount of alcohol that is definitely safe in pregnancy is not known. So, many women have little or no alcohol when they are pregnant. The very early stages of pregnancy may be the most vulnerable time. This is why it is just as important to limit alcohol when you are trying to become pregnant.

If you drink heavily you have an increased risk of miscarriage. Also, alcohol can cause serious harm to the baby's growth and brain development. For example, studies have shown that:

Pregnant women who drink more than 15 units a week have an increased risk of having a baby with a low birth weight.
Pregnant women who drink more than 20 units a week have an increased risk of having a baby with some damage to the brain causing impaired intellect.
Pregnant women who drink very heavily risk having a baby with 'Fetal Alcohol Syndrome'. Babies with this syndrome have brain damage, a low birth weight, and facial malformations.
Bottom line, if you feel strongly about not drinking during pregnancy, then don't do it. If you feel strongly about drinking during pregnancy, MAKE SURE you do responsibly.

To the OP, I'd be concerned, too, to see a pregnant woman drinking on more than one occasion. It's not that she was just drinking, but that from your description she was drinking in what sounds like excess. I do know that Caliber looks a lot like regular beer though. I'm hoping she was just drinking that!!!
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