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Drinking beer while pregnant - Page 3

post #41 of 151
Thread Starter 
Olivia, I'm not in the mood for an argument, but I will say this:
If you were to read my OP and my reply to you, (again) you'd see I came here for info and I said NOTHING about *policing* my neighbor or *choosing to discuss it with her* nor did I say I found your reply *an attack* Those are your words, not mine. I found your replies a bit crass and unimportant to my inquiry. No biggie.

Thanks to those who replied with helpful info on both sides of the topic. I didn't mean for there to be an issue , I just wanted to know more about drinking while pregnant. And now I do.
post #42 of 151
From my limited knowledge- drinking anything is dangerous because they really don't know how much is enough to cause FAS/FAE. Physical characteristics of FAS occur very early on in the pregnancy but the other problems associated with alcohol can occur throughout the pregnancy. If I had succeeded in getting pregnant, I wouldn't have risked it.

FAS/FAE is very sad because it is completely avoidable.
post #43 of 151
I just want to emphasize that what is considered acceptable for pregnant women to eat, drink or do is an entirely cultural construct. We've already seen ample evidence there that cultures outside the US don't hold the same "absolutely nothing is safe until proven safe" belief system. The reasons are varied and I'm sure have at least a little to do with the culture of lawsuits that has developed in the US.

But the bottom line is this: No one knows 100% what is or is not safe in pregnancy. However, that said, there is ample historical evidence to prove reasonable boundaries and expectations. It's up to each woman to make her own decision and no one but her and her medical professional (dr or midwife) has the right to judge that.
post #44 of 151
double post
post #45 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachcomber
I just want to emphasize that what is considered acceptable for pregnant women to eat, drink or do is an entirely cultural construct. We've already seen ample evidence there that cultures outside the US don't hold the same "absolutely nothing is safe until proven safe" belief system. The reasons are varied and I'm sure have at least a little to do with the culture of lawsuits that has developed in the US.

But the bottom line is this: No one knows 100% what is or is not safe in pregnancy. However, that said, there is ample historical evidence to prove reasonable boundaries and expectations. It's up to each woman to make her own decision and no one but her and her medical professional (dr or midwife) has the right to judge that.

Perhaps you didn't read the research study that I posted then? Pregnant mothers who had only 2 alcoholic beverages a day in a middle class family were researched, as well as their children in a 14 year study. Those children had IQ's lower than their middle class peers by 7 points and were far more likely to have behavior related disorders and by the age of 14 results were the same.

A pregnant woman who drinks on a daily or regular basis - simply put - is making her unborn fetus drink on a regular basis. If a mother INSISTS on drinking - which holds no benefit to her or her fetus - then sure, it's her choice, but it's not in the best interest of her developing child.

It's also the mothers choice to smoke or not smoke marijunana, smoke or not smoke tobacco, or try or not try recreational drugs. It's also the mothers choice to not eat properly or take care of her body. It's the mother's choice to do a lot of things, including aborting her unborn fetus... but these choices do not make it a healthy positive choice for her unborn baby.
post #46 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
Perhaps you didn't read the research study that I posted then? Pregnant mothers who had only 2 alcoholic beverages a day in a middle class family were researched, as well as their children in a 14 year study.
"only 2 alcoholic beverages a day"??
I've never met anybody, other than two alcoholics (I'm talking really hardcore drinkers) who wouldn't consider that to be too much alcohol. There's lots of evidence that more than one drink a day is detrimental to a woman's health even if she's not pregnant.

I was a total druggie when I was young...lots of pot and acid, some mushrooms, some amphetamines - and quite a lot of alcohol. I quite often drank most of a fifth of something on the weekend...and I've never come close to drinking two drinks daily. That's not trivial.
post #47 of 151
Mrs Moe,

Quote:
Perhaps you didn't read the research study that I posted then? Pregnant mothers who had only 2 alcoholic beverages a day in a middle class family were researched, as well as their children in a 14 year study. Those children had IQ's lower than their middle class peers by 7 points and were far more likely to have behavior related disorders and by the age of 14 results were the same.
In light of fostering good communication, I'm going to ignore the tone of your remarks and speak only to the content.

The level of consumption cited in your study (2 drinks per day) is not considered mild or even moderate use by most health practitioners standards. In fact, everything I've seen be they studies or reports, brochures or websites, about FAS/FAE cites that regular consumption (more than 1 drink per day) poses a risk of FAS/FAE. I don't think anyone has argued that point with you. I think that all the women here who are participants in this discussion would agree that the 2 drinks per day cited in your study indeed constitutes a dangerous amount for any pregnant woman. But you're not addressing the concepts of occasion use and cultural difference. You're choosing to focus only on high levels of consumption and are using that as your basis for judgement.

The point that many of us have been trying to make is subtler than that and has to do with occasional use and a long history of healthy babies being born to women in other cultures where the doctrine around alcohol consumption is less strict.

Frankly, Mrs Moe, you come from a culture and a perspective that is extremely prescriptive in terms of what is considered appropriate behavior for pregnant women. Not all the posters here come from your culture or share your perspective. Me among them. I think that most women have enough common sense to do the reading and make their own informed choices. And I reiterate that no one has the right to judge pregnant women in the ways they're regularly monitored and judged in the United States.
post #48 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachcomber
Mrs Moe,



In light of fostering good communication, I'm going to ignore the tone of your remarks and speak only to the content. Your research study is not speaking to the issue that's being hotly debated in this thread. The issue is not abuse of alcohol but informed occasional use.

The level of consumption cited in your study (2 drinks per day) is not considered mild or even moderate use by most health practitioners standards. In fact, everything I've seen be they studies or reports, brochures or websites, about FAS/FAE cites that regular consumption (more than 1 drink per day) poses a risk of FAS/FAE. I don't think anyone has argued that point with you. I think that all the women here who are participants in this discussion would agree that the 2 drinks per day cited in your study indeed constitutes a dangerous amount for any pregnant woman. But you're not addressing the concepts of occasion use and cultural difference. You're choosing to focus only on high levels of consumption and are using that as your basis for judgement.

The point that many of us have been trying to make is subtler than that and has to do with occasional use and a long history of healthy babies being born to women in other cultures where the doctrine around alcohol consumption is less strict.

Frankly, Mrs Moe, you come from a culture and a perspective that is extremely prescriptive in terms of what is considered appropriate behavior for pregnant women. Not all the posters here come from your culture or share your perspective. Me among them. I think that most women have enough common sense to do the reading and make their own informed choices. And I reiterate that no one has the right to judge pregnant women in the ways they're regularly monitored and judged in the United States.

It has nothing to do with judgement, this is where you are mistaken. It also has nothing to do with dislike of alcohol. Before I got pregnant, I was a pot smoker and before my allergy to alcohol got out of control (severe rash and issues with breathing) I was a drinker as well. I have nothing against drinking alcohol, so please stop stating I do.

Would you pour beer into your baby's bottle and feed it to your baby? How about inject it into a developing fetus?

Medical research studies speak for themselves... and I won't lower my unborn baby's IQ by 7 points and cause behavioral disorders so I can have MY beer. Just like while I am pregnant, I won't smoke a joint and I watch what I eat and I take my pre-natals.


Did you read the initial post, or all the other posts?

My issue was also never an occasional beer, which I state REPEATEDLY in this thread.

You mention REGLUAR consumption being a cause for FAS/FAE. The poster's friend drinks 2 drinks on a regular basis. While I doubt her unborn baby will have fullblown FAS from drinking 2 beers a day, she will may likely lower her baby's IQ score by 7 points.
post #49 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
"only 2 alcoholic beverages a day"??
I've never met anybody, other than two alcoholics (I'm talking really hardcore drinkers) who wouldn't consider that to be too much alcohol. There's lots of evidence that more than one drink a day is detrimental to a woman's health even if she's not pregnant.

I was a total druggie when I was young...lots of pot and acid, some mushrooms, some amphetamines - and quite a lot of alcohol. I quite often drank most of a fifth of something on the weekend...and I've never come close to drinking two drinks daily. That's not trivial.
And their is lots of evidence that one drink a day is good for your heart. The debate isn't about drinking, but about drinking during pregnancy and fetal harm.
post #50 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
The poster's friend drinks 2 drinks on a regular basis.
1-2 drinks 4 times in "the last couple of weeks" - that's a max. of 8 beers in 14 days...not quite the same thing as the 2 drinks a day cited in the study you reference.

Besides, I'd want to see that study, anyway...did they correct for whether the moms breastfed or formula fed? Did they correct (I doubt it, as it would be very difficult) for levels of stimulation in the home of the infants (eg. time in front of the TV vs. being read...stuck in a swing vs. interaction with people...etc.)? Did they correct for maternal diet? for prenatals? for childhood diet? for childhood exercise levels? for childhood sleep levels?

I am inclined to think that someone who is drinking two drinks every day is probably not the epitome of a mom looking out for her unborn infant's welfare - that doesn't mean it was necessarily the alcohol itself that caused the 7 point drop.
post #51 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
1-2 drinks 4 times in "the last couple of weeks" - that's a max. of 8 beers in 14 days...not quite the same thing as the 2 drinks a day cited in the study you reference.

Besides, I'd want to see that study, anyway...did they correct for whether the moms breastfed or formula fed? Did they correct (I doubt it, as it would be very difficult) for levels of stimulation in the home of the infants (eg. time in front of the TV vs. being read...stuck in a swing vs. interaction with people...etc.)? Did they correct for maternal diet? for prenatals? for childhood diet? for childhood exercise levels? for childhood sleep levels?

I am inclined to think that someone who is drinking two drinks every day is probably not the epitome of a mom looking out for her unborn infant's welfare - that doesn't mean it was necessarily the alcohol itself that caused the 7 point drop.
These are the times she has seen her friend drinking, this obviously does not mean that her friend is limited to drinking only on the occasions that her friend sees her.

Here are the research studies:


A 2001 - Wayne State University research study

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6276

6/7 yr old children of mothers who had as little as one drink a week during pregnancy were more likely than children of non-drinkers to have behavior problems, such as aggressive and delinquent behaviors. This study also found that children whose mothers drank any amount alcohol during pregnancy were more than three times as likely as unexposed children to demonstrate delinquent behaviors.





University of Washington research study
http://www.come-over.to/FAS/FASresearch.htm
http://www.come-over.to/FAS/FASresearch.htm#FASmoderate

10% risk of having abnormal or FAS child if drinking ranged from 1 to 2 ounces of absolute alcohol per day (2-4 drinks)

Mothers were social drinkers and an average of about two drinks per day - children ages 7 were given intelligence tests and these children scored seven points lower than the average for all children in the study. By the age 14 these casual light alcohol-exposed children remained more likely to have learning issues, especially in the areas of mathematics and memory, as well as behavioral issues.
post #52 of 151
Time for dd's nap, so I could only read through the first one. So, it adjusts for some factors, not for others (naturally)...but it functioned through interviews. The data is flawed right out the chute.

Anyway...it boggles my mind that studies like this are used to lay down the law to a pregnant woman who wants to drink a glass of champagne at her friend's wedding. The women in these studies (from what I've looked over already) are not light drinkers...not by any stretch of the imagination.
post #53 of 151
I do feel the need to point out, as a scientist, that just because a study says so doesn't make it true. There's an awful lot of questionable science being done in the world, much of it in peer-reviewed journals. Storm Bride's questions are very relevant.

Secondly, your first link doesn't match the description of the study that you have next to it.

Thirdly, none of your links pertain to women drinking less that two drinks a day. Two drinks a day (14/week) is a lot more than the 3-4/week that most people here seem to be talking about as reasonable.

You may prefer to err on the side of caution (and I'm with you- but then, I've never been a drinker), but it doesn't mean that others are being irresponsible. And please stop invoking science as though it were Truth.

Julia
post #54 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
I was a drinker as well. I have nothing against drinking alcohol, so please stop stating I do.
I didn't say that. What I said was that you are using a study that was based on high levels of consumption. I also said you're choosing to ignore what a lot of people here have said about making informed choices about occasional used based on cultural differences. Your study doesn't address OCCASIONAL use.

And, as Storm Bride pointed out, there may be validity issues. The study may not have corrected for a number of pertinent details. And as Julia pointed out, not all science is as reliable as we would like to believe. Science does not equal TRUTH. It's simply information. And like all information it has to be weighed and balanced, critiqued and analysed for errors and falsehoods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
Would you pour beer into your baby's bottle and feed it to your baby? How about inject it into a developing fetus?
Please refrain from using guilt-inducing statements such as this if you are going to discuss this with me. I will not be swayed by guilt, judgement or condemnation. And you are making some huge assumptions about my literacy, my intelligence and my behavior which I truly resent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
Medical research studies speak for themselves...
I've already stated that I'm not arguing with medical research, nor am I arguing with the study you cited. I'm simply pointing out that you're using an example of clinical excess to prescribe behavior instead of simply providing information and trusting women to make their own informed choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
and I won't lower my unborn baby's IQ by 7 points and cause behavioral disorders so I can have MY beer. Just like while I am pregnant, I won't smoke a joint and I watch what I eat and I take my pre-natals.
Again with the guilt-inducing statements. You're inferring by this statement that I will, perhaps? Or that other women here who have countered your prescriptive statements and rhetoric will. I dislike this type of manipulative statement. It sets you up as judge and jury in a situation where you simply do not have those rights to exercise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
Did you read the initial post, or all the other posts?
Yes, I did. I've read this entire thread. And I've found that you are behaving in a very judgemental and dismissive way. I'm not illiterate or stupid because I disagree with your prescriptive approach. I am an educated, informed and intelligent person and you have no right to question that. However much you may feel entitled to, as evidenced by your posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
My issue was also never an occasional beer, which I state REPEATEDLY in this thread.
Then why do you keep on beating the same horse? You're the one repeatedly citing your study which was quite obviously based on high levels of regular use. You're the one making statements like:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
Would you pour beer into your baby's bottle and feed it to your baby? How about inject it into a developing fetus?

I won't lower my unborn baby's IQ by 7 points and cause behavioral disorders so I can have MY beer.
You're making implicit accusations here. And that's judgement, whether you want to admit to it or not.
post #55 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalirush
I do feel the need to point out, as a scientist, that just because a study says so doesn't make it true. There's an awful lot of questionable science being done in the world, much of it in peer-reviewed journals. Storm Bride's questions are very relevant.

Secondly, your first link doesn't match the description of the study that you have next to it.

Thirdly, none of your links pertain to women drinking less that two drinks a day. Two drinks a day (14/week) is a lot more than the 3-4/week that most people here seem to be talking about as reasonable.

You may prefer to err on the side of caution (and I'm with you- but then, I've never been a drinker), but it doesn't mean that others are being irresponsible. And please stop invoking science as though it were Truth.

Julia
Sorry about the link... will double check it later and get the correct one, I have to get online atm, we are havign guests over tonight... will have to post tonight or tomorrow.

As far as science not being truth, what other means should we use for finding out medical facts and data? Rely on "intuition"? The research was conducted by reputable Universities that do other alcohol related medical studies. IMO a University study is highly reliable.

It's easy to say well, just because it's a research study, I don't believe it. Well then, what DO you accept as proof? And why risk drinking if there is that strong possibilyt that there can be fetal harm? WHY WHY WHY??? Why is it SOOO important to drink while you are pregnant? :
post #56 of 151
Quote:
IMO a University study is highly reliable.
I work for a university. I would have to disagree with this statement. Not all universities are equally reliable. Not all universities are subject to the same levels and methods of scrutiny. Here in Canada many research-based institutions are under increasing pressure to obtain privately sourced funding for research projects, which means going with industry sources like petroleum companies, pharmaceutical companies and other "invested" sources. This adds an automatic bias that is difficult to counter. When your funder is a private company and they've got a proprietary interest in the outcome of your project, then you as a scientist are under incredible pressure to produce the results they want instead of to just do the best science possible.

Quote:
Why is it SOOO important to drink while you are pregnant?
Wow. Talk about conflating the argument.

That's not what people are saying. What they're saying is that they should have the right to make an informed decision FOR THEMSELVES. What you're advocating is literally telling women what to do. Dictating to them. As if women don't have enough common sense to be able to make a logical decision if presented with a variety of evidence. THAT is what I'm taking issue with here.
post #57 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
As far as science not being truth, what other means should we use for finding out medical facts and data? Rely on "intuition"? The research was conducted by reputable Universities that do other alcohol related medical studies. IMO a University study is highly reliable.
I've seen some godawful stupid science come out of Universities. Not to mention, people just make mistakes sometimes. I like to actually read the published paper, where possible, and *also* wait for the results to be replicated.

One study means nothing more than "hey, here's an avenue for possibly interesting research. Somebody follow me up and replicate me". I mean, it might have been a fluke cause by a million factors. Hell, the researchers might have just made it up. I've seen it happen. At reputable universities.

I'm not advocating ignoring scientific studies, by the way. Not even close. I'm just saying, studies can be flawed and wrong. They should be evaluated the way you evaluate any information source, and not just taken at face value because that's what someone else says the paper says. Or even because that's what the authors say the paper says.

Quote:
It's easy to say well, just because it's a research study, I don't believe it. Well then, what DO you accept as proof? And why risk drinking if there is that strong possibilyt that there can be fetal harm? WHY WHY WHY??? Why is it SOOO important to drink while you are pregnant? :
Okay, strong possibility. It's your judgement that these studies constitute a strong possibility of fetal harm, so you choose to abstain completely. I think I would make the same choice (as I said, I never drink, so I didn't make that choice, really), but I can understand why others might not see it as a strong possibility based on historical information and the evidence you've presented. Just saying.

Julia
post #58 of 151
Okay time for everyone to take a nice deep breath and go do something else.

I'm sure the OP has gotten what she came for (and then some). This is practically turning into one of those W&P threads that used to get shut down all the time.

Peace.
post #59 of 151
I am pregnant with my fifth baby and have had wine/beer to varying degrees with all pregnancies. Every baby has been completely fine with no delay in any areas.

My OB has given me her blessing to consume one glass of wine/beer a day during my second and third trimesters. I have had a few glasses of wine or beer and sips of "harder" stuff but never on a regular or consistent basis.

I think FAS is more readily linked to episodes of heavy "binge" drinking than moderate consumption. To each their own.
post #60 of 151
Oh and for the record, I place more value on anecdotal evidence combined with science than science alone. Science is flawed as are studies based on who is doing the funding (a study funded by a formula company would hardly be prudent to discover that formula might actually be *harmful* to infants. Everybody needs a paycheck, ya know? ) and who gains to benefit from those results.

The other thing to consider is that theorists/scientist/medical staff need to exercise great caution when saying certain behaviors are ok during pregnancy. It is our nature as humans to "overdue" most everything, so if one study says one drink a day is fine, there is bound to be that mom-to-be who thinks therefore 2 drinks can't be "that much more worse" than one and so the cycle of abuse begins.

I know myself, I know my limits. I know what I feel comfortable with based on my own research but I understand that not all women have the same level of discipline I have. Again, to each their own.
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