manipulated mommy of 2yo - HELP!

[Pilgrim]

Help! I've just discovered that my 2yo has my number!

It was recently brought to my attention that I am letting my 2yo manipulate me. The other day we were packing up to come home from a vacation, and she kept asking for one food item after another. That's when someone said she was trying to put off going home. This was an "ah-ha!" moment for me. I must say that I agree that DD was being manipulative, because she would eat *some* of each food I brought her, she was more playing.

Then I got to thinking of more of her behaviors, and she truly knows how to play me! Latest example (hilarious to DH and I): Last night, she was going through her endless list of things she needs before bed. She always has a sippy cup of water by the bed, and she had already had her "last drink." Story time, prayer time were over and it was time for lights out. She starts with "I need this, I need that..blah blah" and I'm all "no, no, and no again" (being firm and gentle) and DD finally says (because I never say no to water) "I need water." I was pretty grumpy and I said "you do not need water, now put your head on the pillow." She said "I choking" (her words for coughing.) I said "no, you are not choking." DD then does this little fake cough, and says "I choking right now!" DH and I fell apart laughing and of course she got her water.

This is just a funny example, but she does stuff like this all the time. And she apparantly knows where I draw my lines. I am generally good about drawing lines (being firm with my answers) with "non-essentials." So, she uses other means of being controlling. She knows I don't refuse her food, water (usually! ), and diaper changes or potty trips. Last night, my nearly-potty-trained toddler peed in her diaper twice in 15 minutes, necessitating 2 diaper changes just before bed. And this was AFTER she had already peed in the potty before I put on her bedtime diaper. Many, many nights she waits until it's time to lay still in bed, and she'll lay still for awhile and *then* pee and ask for another diaper. Of course, I change her and tell her it's her last diaper for the night. So far that hasn't backfired because of course, I'd change her if she peed again.

HELP!!! Is there any way to stop this cycle? Thanks!

[Silliest]

I'm doing somethign really freaky, but it seems to be helping with this sort of stuff.

I'm setting my timer for 15 minute periods.

15 minutes of cleaning
15 minutes with the kids (sometimes together, sometimes they alternate
15 minutes on the computer (me time, and/or work time depending)
15 minutes unpacking (we just moved)

and back to the start.

Of course it doesn't usually *really* work out that way, but the better I do at paying attnetion to the kids during "their time" the better they seem to do at not bugging me for non-essentials during "my time", and the better they seem to be about bedtimes and whatnot.

Of course, I've only been doing this for a couple of weeks, and we just moved, so I dunno if it's working, or they just like the new house! <LOL!>

[flyingspaghettimama]

Well...I don't really personally like to think of it as my child (particularly not a two year old) manipulating or trying to control me...that just seems a little overly intentionally evil for a toddler. I would see it as she wants something, but is trying to get it in an indirect way, and needs help expressing her needs/wants directly so we can talk about that. I have definitely seen children who do things like this (intentionally manipulate), but more at an older age, and because that's the way the house is run - bribes, threats, ever-changing limits/boundaries, and manipulation by parents. So the kids are playing by the house rules, really, and I don't think anyone could be surprised by that. I don't think you are letting your daughter manipulate you at all - she probably just needs some assistance expressing her feelings, esp at 2.

If you want her to be able to express her needs/wants more directly - not that she's going to get them, but you open the door to direct communication. When she says, "I want this, I want that..." etc say "I hear you wish you could stay and play for longer because it's really hard to leave a friend's house." or "I hear you saying you wish could stay up later," and see what she says. She will (probably) either agree to the feeling and you can discuss THAT directly; or she is really needing something (food, water, etc) and then you can deal with the underlying need. The magical thinking worked for us a lot at this age, "I wish you could stay up all night too" - "I wish we could play all day long too, and if I was magic I'd make it happen, but we need to go in five minutes and you can finish your snack in the car." I think a lot of children really want you to understand their heart's desires, even if it means that they won't get it or not on their timetable.

It sounds also like she might be struggling with the idea of transitions between one activity and another - toddlers and young preschoolers do. There are lots of great, fun ideas on how to help with this issue, even a whole book on it. If you do a web search you might find something.

I love the "choking" example, BTW. Bad mommy, won't even get her daughter water while she's chocking to DEATH! :LOL Maybe she will be a world-class thespian.

[Piglet68]

You're entering dangerous territory when you assume such intentions of your child. It's already "her against you" and that attitude is going to make life difficult for all of you. As loraeileen said, it's not that she's manipulating you - this requires mental abilities far beyond a 2 year old's, but rather she is trying to communicate and is having soome difficulty.

Your choking example may sound funny, and to a group of parents it is, but it wasn't to your dd and whatyou said to her was sending the wrong message, IMO. Saying "you're not thirsty" sends the message "you don't know what you want/feel, I do".

When you follow the scenarios you describe with the mindset "she's manipulating me" then you will see that, and your responses were all about letting her know you were "on to her". Again, a "her vs you" attitude. OTOH, if you dismiss that attitude then see instead a young person with opinions who is just learning how to express them and needs your help, the dynamics are totally different.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

Your choking example may sound funny, and to a group of parents it is, but it wasn't to your dd and whatyou said to her was sending the wrong message, IMO. Saying "you're not thirsty" sends the message "you don't know what you want/feel, I do"..

Yah, I would say I assumed that the daughter was joking or exaggerating for dramatic effect, as this is what goes on in our house frequently. By all the members of the house (including me). We are often ridiculous, and I remember my daughter being very hilarious at this age (intentionally), and humor/silliness was one of the ways we worked through many discipline issues, while still taking the underlying issue seriously. She was far more amenable to me saying "ok, let's get our coats on" and me trying to put on her coat and offering her mine...or her insisting on being called Ja-Ja (?!) all day and filling me in on the ridiculousness of Ja-Ja's life. She's still like this, too, and loooving summer drama camp.

Obviously, if she really thinks she's choking/dying of thirst, and isn't going for laughs, then that's another thing, and pretty important.

[Ravin]

I see it as part of social development. Like it or not, desireable or not, much of human social behavior is about getting other people to do what one wants them to do: i.e. manipulation.

I've been using distraction for months to turn DD away from behaviors I don't want her to do and things I don't want her to get into. It's really no surprise that she's now turning the tables on my by repeatedly asking to go potty when she knows I want her to go to bed or nap. She knows that I also like her to ask to go potty and encourage her to do so at every turn and respond positively when she signs to do so. What's more, she considers the whole potty routine fun most of the time, except when she has pooped in her diaper (which she doesn't like to have me clean up).

Conversely, because she doesn't like to be wiped up after pooping, today she led me to the bedroom and signed "bed", indicating she wanted a nap. She's been known to do this and consequently go to sleep without incident. So today we lay down, she starts to nurse, and I catch a whiff of stinky diaper.

She's a smart one, there's no denying. One theory I've read of human intelligence holds that it was primarily developed for social interaction. It was coopted for invention, toolmaking, etc., but it should be no surprise that kids pick up on functional social skills. She's also learned how to say please. They're two sides of the same coin, imo.

[maya44]

[QUOTE=Ravin]I see it as part of social development. Like it or not, desireable or not, much of human social behavior is about getting other people to do what one wants them to do: i.e. manipulation.
/QUOTE]


I agree that human social behavior is often about trying to get what we want. I dont' consider this manipulaiton though.

So yes your dd will try to get what she wants, which is not leaving or not sepearting from you at bedtime by trying different things to see what will achieve her goals. This is not bad, its smart.

If you have already decided that it is time to leave or that it is time for her to sleep and that a separation at bedtime is the right thing to do, than you merely need to show her that these things she is trying are not going to change the plan.

If you feel that these things are open for discussion or negotiation with her you should do that. "hmm it seems like you don't want to leave yet, do you want to stay another 10 minutes"

But if not you merely need to say something like "We don't have time to eat any more, you will eat when we get home (or on the road)."

She is not trying to "manipulate" you, she is trying to do what she can to achieve her goals which may differ from yours.

[Pilgrim]

Whoa, such assumptions made about me because I used the word *gasp* MANIPULATION!!!

So, let me back up a bit. Obviously, my TRUE and CONSISTENT way of parenting did not come through in my OP. I tried to be short and concise, and I was discussing a current problem we are dealing with. I am very into AP and GD. I've read tons and tons about it, and am enjoying using those techniques in our home.

That is why I said in my OP that it was pointed out that she was manipulating me. I am never "on the watch" for that type of behavior because I generally don't believe young children do that. Now, I think that this thread has become a discussion of semantics about exactly what "manipulation" is. Personally, I don't think of it as evil, and I don't think of it as pre-meditated most of the time. I was a very manipulative and controlling person back in my teens and early twenties and had absolutely NO IDEA that I was that way. It just came naturally to me, and I was generally a sweet person. It took me many years of being aware of doing it to actually stop doing it. So I don't think of it being as some horrible thing when I use that word.

OK, in my OP, I first discussed DD asking for more and more food. What I did not say was that as soon as it was brought to my attention that she was trying to keep me from packing up (manipulating), I immediately sat her in my lap and we talked about how she was a little sad to be leaving her new friends, and a little happy to be going home to see daddy. I did not say "Forget it, you can't have any more food you evil manipulator!" So, YES, I use the technique of reflecting feelings!

Piglet - I never told her "You are not thirsty." I told her "you are not choking" because she wasn't. Although you are right - that night I did have an "I'm onto you" attitude that I normally don't have and I can see that now. I'll be on the lookout for it in my future attitudes.

Maya - DD falls asleep cuddled up to me and sleeps in our room on her own mattress which is butted up against ours. She is welcome in our bed any time she wants and normally crawls over and cuddles up to me around 5am when she wakes up.

Another example is the pottying issue. Why would she pee in the toilet and have her bedtime diaper on (part of normal routine) and then lay down and pee again? And then after another diaper change pee again? This is not a child who NEEDS to pee. She pees a drop or two. This is a controlling behavior. I am usually cuddled up with her falling asleep myself and I must drag my behind up and change her diaper because she's wanting some more attention before going to sleep.

So you can call it what you want, manipulation, controlling, trying to get her way, trying to express herself - the bottom line is that she is asking for things she doesn't need in order to get something from me. And in our home, DD is free to ask for whatever she wants, and we provide an environment for her that she gets what she wants most of the time. This is not permissive, but rather, it's how we've set up the home and our routines, which I believe is very AP and GD.

So what I was asking in my OP was not to be attacked for using the "M" word, but I was asking for people who have btdt to give me some useful ideas as to what to do when DD exhibits this type of behavior. As I said before, she knows I stand my ground firmly EXCEPT for food, water, and pottying. Those are the precise things she uses to delay some inevitable thing she doesn't want to happen. And really, I don't want to tell her she can't eat, drink, or pee. So I don't know how to draw a boundary when she is using those things. I am fine about drawing other boundaries.

Ravin - I think you are really onto something with DD using distraction in the same way I do to her! That was very insightful!!

I do appreciate those of you who have given me some specific ideas without attacking me. I look forward to hearing more.

[Sarihah]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

You're entering dangerous territory when you assume such intentions of your child. It's already "her against you" and that attitude is going to make life difficult for all of you. As loraeileen said, it's not that she's manipulating you - this requires mental abilities far beyond a 2 year old's, but rather she is trying to communicate and is having soome difficulty.

Don't underestimate a 2 year old! They can and do manipulate with amazing skill. It doesn't mean that they are 'evil'. A small child just can't be 'evil', IMO. But small children are very skillful manipulators; they know when they will be denied and try to find ways around being told 'no'. That's all there is to it.

[Sarihah]

Originally Posted by Ravin

I see it as part of social development. Like it or not, desireable or not, much of human social behavior is about getting other people to do what one wants them to do: i.e. manipulation.

I've been using distraction for months to turn DD away from behaviors I don't want her to do and things I don't want her to get into. It's really no surprise that she's now turning the tables on my by repeatedly asking to go potty when she knows I want her to go to bed or nap. She knows that I also like her to ask to go potty and encourage her to do so at every turn and respond positively when she signs to do so. What's more, she considers the whole potty routine fun most of the time, except when she has pooped in her diaper (which she doesn't like to have me clean up).

Conversely, because she doesn't like to be wiped up after pooping, today she led me to the bedroom and signed "bed", indicating she wanted a nap. She's been known to do this and consequently go to sleep without incident. So today we lay down, she starts to nurse, and I catch a whiff of stinky diaper.

She's a smart one, there's no denying. One theory I've read of human intelligence holds that it was primarily developed for social interaction. It was coopted for invention, toolmaking, etc., but it should be no surprise that kids pick up on functional social skills. She's also learned how to say please. They're two sides of the same coin, imo.

Ravin, I just want to tell you that I very much enjoyed reading your post.

[flyingspaghettimama]

I am so sorry you feel judged or lambasted for your word choice. I think I understand what you're saying - you feel like she's utilising situations that are needs to communicate wants/desires. I hear you better after you explained your whole situation - isn't online communication grand?

I guess it requires two people to be manipulated in my opinion (manipulator and manipulatee) - so perhaps she won't get it now, but she will if you are consistent in your communication style, rules, and reinforcing that you hear her underlying wants. It's not like she'll give up right away on her method of indirect communication if it gets her what she's needing/wanting, but she will copy your communication method at some point and realize that it's the more efficient way.

I don't think of manipulation as an evil thing per se - I just find it to be a really inefficient way of communication where people later feel tricked and/or blamed, and the preferred style of my family of origin. It's better to ask for what I want with other adults- and maybe I'll get it and maybe I won't - but I won't try to trick/deceive/get anyone into doing what I want. I'd rather have a disagreement that gets it all out on the table than try to manipulate. I am probably sensitive to the semantics because of the very negative personal experiences that I've had to grow through in my family.

I think your clear boundaries and empathetic, direct communication will create the relationship you're looking for - but it might just take time, and it might be just a phase she's going through, to test boundaries and where indirect comm will take her. Good luck!

[Kincaid]

Pilgrim,
No advice (my DS is younger than yours so I have not yet BTDT), but I wanted to say from your original post I deducted that you were a gentle parent and taking a positive approach.

Your daughter's new understanding that she can "manipulate" her environment sounds a lot like a smaller baby's realization that he can manipulate blocks with his hands (after all, doesn't manipulation mean to cause things to happen... the word just describes something that we ALL do). Realizing that your words and actions can change the behavior of *people* must be a heady experience for a child.

I hope you get some good suggestions to guide her through it so I can : I think humor is a great one!

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by Kincaid

Your daughter's new understanding that she can "manipulate" her environment sounds a lot like a smaller baby's realization that he can manipulate blocks with his hands (after all, doesn't manipulation mean to cause things to happen...

Sorry, pipe in here one more time and then I'll go - I wanted to say that I agree with this in the sense that they are learning so much more about cause and effect at this age - turn on the faucet, the water comes on - so this can be seen as another exploration of what happens when I...or not? etc. I think the term "testing boundaries" is really more about this cause and effect stage of childhood than intentionally testing boundaries. She might just be testing the cause and effect of this form of communication.

Try that Playful Parenting book - particularly at this age - so fun, really, once you go with the flow of how freakin' smart and funny they are.

What about playacting through some of these issues with the teddy bears? The teddy bear doesn't want to go to bed, and thinks up more and more ridiculous things to stay up (i.e. has to climb a mountain, has to swim in the ocean, needs a four-course dinner), and she's the teddy bear mama - what does she say? Or playing with the rules of going to bed (or not), with you being the child and her being the grown-up? Or the reverse, pretending to get mad when she does all the bedtime routine "wrong," according to some silly rules you make up (before we go to bed, we must put colanders on our head, or something like that).

[lilyka]

I just don't understand why everyone hates the word manipulation. That is exactly what this child is doping. my 2 year old does it too and it is totally within the grasp of a two year old. as a matter of fact if your 2 year old has no skill at manipulating thier environment to thier favor I would say they may need some intervention and help. I mean really so much of the way we interactas humans is by manipulating the world around us trying to get things to go our way. anyway, I think it is silly that everyone has added so much of thier negative connotations to that word./ granted it sucks to fall for manipulation or to be manipulated and maybe that is why so many people think that children are eveil when they do it. I say if you have a probablem with constantly being manipulated to the point where you feel used and abused then that is your problem and your weakness.

onto the original post:

two year olds are funny. and they pick up on the potty thing right away. All three of mine would do that. time to go honey "Potty potty!" get in the car 'potty!!" the way i usually deal with it is by stating my expectation "you have had a drink, brushed your teeth and gone to the bathroom, now stay in bed" and leaving the room (standard nighttime procedure for us, they are not scared and go to sleep on thier own after playing in thier beds for a while, but whatever is standard just stick to that). My last one also picked up on the fake cough by the time she was about 18 months old. it was indeed hillarious. i wouldn't worry that she was turning into a manipulative monster :LOL just admire her skills for now and stand firm. it really is an amazing process isn't it? to watch her mind work. to know she knows what you will and won't give in on. each of my children picked up on it faster. I think it was being able to watch me interact with more childern and learn more quickly what my buttons were. They know and they figure out so quickly what we never deny them (food, water, potty, doting on them when they are sick and kisses for thier owies - oh I forgot about owies. wow she couldn't have been more than 14 months when I would lay her in bed and she would suddenly have owies all oer that needed kissing :LOL she knew she was done with good night kisses but that I would never refuse to kiss a poor baby's owie. even fake ones. ) it seems they grow out of it pretty quickly (when they realize you are on to them as much as they are on to you) and it is just a sweet memory in the past.

[SimonMom]

I just wanted to say my 2 year old "manipulates" too. And I certainly don't view him as something evil or bad. Honestly I find the situation generally humurous. With us it's generally about peeing too. He usually pees outside in our yard before we put on clothes and get in the car. Now he's started to repeatedly say he has to pee and the pretend to pee over and over. Every time I start to say that's we're leaving, he'll again say that he has to pee. Now of course I empathize with him a little about how he doesn't want to leave, but then I say this is your last chance to pee, and then we're putting on clothes. If you pee in your clothes, it's not a big deal, I'll clean it up, but we're leaving now. It works for us. BTW he does understand what I mean, and I know he certainly does not have to pee after 5 times of trying!

[lilyka]

OK but here is the question.

what is motivating the manipulating? is it that they really don't want to do whatever, in the pp example get dressed and leave, or do you think they are just amazed that they have figured this out and are having fun with the fact that they can shape the course of events with one little word (looks like pee seems to be the big one :LOL have I ever mentioned 2 is about my favorite age). I mean think about it. in thier little heads they are thinking "I wonder if I have to pee if she will drop what she is doing. oh look it worked. I wonder if it will work tomarrow. oh look it did. I wonder if it will work in 1/2 an hour. yeeesss! ok now lets see how long I can make it work befire she realizes what a genius I am . . . . wohooo 15 times. those big people just haven't got a clue . . if she only knew I really wasn't peeing bwahahahahahaha silly grown ups."

I am beginning to think it has nothign to do with getting what they want butinstead just pulling one over on the big people. a game. they are messin with us :

and if you really hate the manipulate you can just say they are redirecting us.

[Piglet68]

I wasn't trying to attack you, Pilgrim. I'm sorry if it came across that way. It's hard to get tone across in text, and add a wriggling 24+ lb baby in your lap and it's really hard! My point was that the way you view things affects how you deal with them, and I thought this was your problem. From your second post, it's obvious I misunderstood, but the intentions were good.

I'll stand by my claim that 2 year olds aren't capable of manipulation, but agree that my definition might not be that of others. I think of manipulation as being able to understand that other people have different perceptions than you do, and that you can play with those perceptions. Most 2 year olds really don't grasp the concept of individual perception, they don't really understand that what they know isn't necessarily what another might know, and vice versa. They certainly don't know that they can change the perceptions of another person. I think what some are calling "manipulation" is simply communication. Getting the message across about what THEY want, not actively trying to change perceptions of other people to get them to see things the way you do. The latter is what I consider to be manipulation and is, I believe, simply beyond the realm of a 2 year old.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Well, if we are going to have a semantics discussion, might as well use a real reference source.

Manipulation:
1. exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one's own advantage; "his manipulation of his friends was scandalous"
2. handling: the action of touching with the hands or the skillful use of the hands

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

As an adjective:
S: (adj) manipulative (skillful in influencing or controlling others to your own advantage) "the early manipulative techniques of a three-year-old child"

So I guess there's room for everyone.

[Embee]

Indeed, the word MANIPULATION is a hot button. Admittedly, it gets my blood going too. That word aside, the TONE of your post suggests to me that you are keeping a good sense of humor about it all and just looking for ways to cope. Right on. Also from your post, it sounds to me it sounds as if you have your answers already...

If you can plainly see that she is warding off bedtime, or leaving, or whatever, I would simply help her to acknowledge it and then, empathize: "You're asking for a lot of food but then not eating. Are you trying to tell me that you'd like to stay longer?" or "You're asking for one thing after another, its hard to say goodnight sometimes, huh?"

This approach was so helpful for my son. Kids are smart! They know what they feel! But... they don't always have the words. By acknowledging in this way, you (1) let her know that you see, understand and empathize with her that its difficult to say goodnight/leave a friends, etc. and (2) You let her know that YOU are well aware of the real reason for all the requests.

This kind of thing can be very tiring for a parent, especially at the end of a long day so I totally get ya there mama! It is ok to set limits for YOU. And sometimes it really is as easy as just making sure that she knows that you *hear* her. Getting this stuff out into the open, letting kids talk honestly about their reasons for this or that can not only be enlightening, but lighten the load... for both of you. Takes the heaviness out of issues you'd rather not have weighing on you--there are so many out there we can't avoid. Its nice when we can get through many of them with just a little talking.

The best, and hang in there!

Em