My son runs the show

[septmommy]

Please help! My 21 month old son and I are having real discipline problems and it's creating a terrible cycle. I believe strongly in GD, but it simply isn't working for my very spirited son. Maybe I am doing it wrong or maybe he just doesn't respond to these techniques. The cycle is horrible. Here's an example:

1. He hits me because I say not to play with the dishwasher

2. I tell him I know he wants to play with the dishwasher and he's mad that I said no, but hitting hurts and is not okay. Then I ask if he'd like to play with a toy instead.

3. He hits again, this time trying to bite as well

4. I gently hold his head away so he can't bite and I firmly say "Hitting and biting are not allowed "

5. Now he is screaming and trying to hit, bite, head butt or whatever he can do to hurt me.

6. Now I'm getting pissed so I yell loudly and put him down (not so gently) across the room from me.

7. He's in complete hysterics now, almost laughing. He's thrown himself on the floor screaming.

8. I look across the room at him and my heart breaks. My mind starts racing: This kid is out of control. I'm a horrible mom and I've caused this. I should have just let him play with the dishwasher. I should have just hugged him. He's really upset that I had another baby and this has nothing to do with the dishwasher. My mainstream friends have well behaved kids, maybe GD is bogus? I shouldn't have been on the computer, I should have been playing with him before. I love him so much and I can't believe I lost my cool with him.

9. I get up and go to hug him and he yells "No, no, no". I am close to tears and I am longing to hug him and make him feel better. Eventually he climbs into my arms and we hug.

This kind of thing happens several times a day and I am burnt out. I have even spanked a couple of times and I feel so guilty. I truly feel like I have no idea how to discipline him, I feel so inept! There is so much more to our story, but he woke up and I want to go give him a hug

[mamazee]

Well, very briefly

1. That is a power struggle. Avoid them at all costs. In other words, unless he can harm himself or the dishwasher, let him play with it.

2. If he is likely to harm himself or the dishwasher, instead of saying, "Don't play with the dishwasher" pour some bubbles in the sink, turn on the water, and ask for help cleaning some plastic cups. Or some other distraction.

3. If at some point he starts a tantrum, don't try to do anything about it, just give him space so he's safe, tell him you love him and are nearby if he needs you, and let him get it out of his system.

I'll try to get back to this later!

[oceanbaby]

Originally Posted by mamazee

Well, very briefly

1. That is a power struggle. Avoid them at all costs. In other words, unless he can harm himself or the dishwasher, let him play with it.

2. If he is likely to harm himself or the dishwasher, instead of saying, "Don't play with the dishwasher" pour some bubbles in the sink, turn on the water, and ask for help cleaning some plastic cups. Or some other distraction.

3. If at some point he starts a tantrum, don't try to do anything about it, just give him space so he's safe, tell him you love him and are nearby if he needs you, and let him get it out of his system.

I'll try to get back to this later!

[Sarihah]

I'd let him get it out of his system, but I would refuse to be held captive to his tantrum. He'd have to have it out of my sight.

I know this isn't popular to say, but I don't think that there is ANY one technique that will work with all children, gentle discipline included. And when a child is this much out of control, I think it the lack of ability to control himself is frightening to the child. At such times, I think imposing your will on the child and finding the means by which to control him is a loving thing to do. It assures him that you are there to set boundaries and protect him from himself, so to speak.

Hope I don't get flamed for this point of view. :

[lilyka]

he is still a baby. did you say you just had another one? I am sure he seems really big but he is still just a baby. this is normal.

Secondly since talking makes it worse stop talking. explain the rule - we don't play in the dishwasher and be consistant. If he tries to bite/hit/ whatever tell him no (i know people hate no but for some kdis a direct approach works better. he knows good and well what you are saying no to. he isn't that little) and move on. you aren't going to make him feel better. he has made that clear. So give him space and don't sit there fretting. it sounds like it blows over pretty quick. once he is happy and huggy again state your expectation "remember no matter how mad we are we don't bite or hit or whatever. that hurts. would you like to play with . . . . now?"

[mmaramba]

Originally Posted by Sarihah

I know this isn't popular to say, but I don't think that there is ANY one technique that will work with all children, gentle discipline included.

Um, just a thought... I'm still learning here.

But I think GD as a philosophy has pretty-much all the bases covered. That is, I don't think there's any one technique that works for all kids in all situations, but I think one philosophy might work, since by its nature, a philosophy is inclusive. And GD has lots of techniques, not just one.

Not sure if this is a valid analogy, but maybe it's like deciding to be a certain religion, and then saying "no one religion can work for me, I have to piece something together from several religions?"

OTOH, I'm not sure that's so bad... :

[mmaramba]

And septmommy... Just a thought, but it may be more that he's getting inconsistent messages from you-- particularly WRT the spanking.

Other than that, it could be more of a "phase" that will burn itself out if you respond consistently.

But I'm not a mom, YMMV, etc.

[oldcrunchymom]

Originally Posted by septmommy

1. He hits me because I say not to play with the dishwasher

2. I tell him I know he wants to play with the dishwasher and he's mad that I said no, but hitting hurts and is not okay. Then I ask if he'd like to play with a toy instead.

3. He hits again, this time trying to bite as well

4. I gently hold his head away so he can't bite and I firmly say "Hitting and biting are not allowed "

5. Now he is screaming and trying to hit, bite, head butt or whatever he can do to hurt me.

6. Now I'm getting pissed so I yell loudly and put him down (not so gently) across the room from me.

I think you were doing great until #6.

Tantrums are a normal part of being a little kid and usually come in reaction to limits being set. But by getting worked up yourself, you are feeding into his toddler power trip and turning the situation into a battle.

I know he is only 21 months old, but it's okay to NOT let him play with the dishwasher. Honest. Tell him the dishwasher is not a toy, that it might hurt him or get broken. Then distract him to another task. If he has a tantrum, let him, making sure it's somewhere safe. Most importantly, try to stay calm and not lose it yourself. Easier said than done, I know! But I also know from experience that the situation ALWAYS gets worse if I start getting angry along with my kids.

7. He's in complete hysterics now, almost laughing. He's thrown himself on the floor screaming.

Pick him up and take him to another room. Away from the object of lust and towards another activity.

You're not a bad mom because your toddler has tantrums. My gosh, that's the most normal thing in the world. The trick is to be firm with your limits and choose them wisely. IMO it's reasonable to teach your kid that it's not okay to play around with major appliances.

I'm sure he's sensing your indecision and hesitation and that's making things worse. So, you need to make a decision: playing with the dishwasher is not safe so I won't let him do it no matter how big of a tantrum he throws OR playing with the dishwasher is fine and I need to not make an issue of it. The choice is yours but either way you need to be consistent.

[Sarihah]

Originally Posted by mmaramba

Um, just a thought... I'm still learning here.

But I think GD as a philosophy has pretty-much all the bases covered. That is, I don't think there's any one technique that works for all kids in all situations, but I think one philosophy might work, since by its nature, a philosophy is inclusive. And GD has lots of techniques, not just one.

Not sure if this is a valid analogy, but maybe it's like deciding to be a certain religion, and then saying "no one religion can work for me, I have to piece something together from several religions?"

OTOH, I'm not sure that's so bad... :

And then there's the difference in what I might consider to be gentle discipline and what someone else might consider to be gentle discipline. I've noticed that there is an enormous variety in application of the philosophy, from moms who do not believe in the concept of punishment to mothers whose perspective is a little more mainstream.

My little niece is 2 1/2. She just went through a stage of very prolonged, brainscrambling screaming. She'd scream to get her way, scream when you did A and then scream when you did B. At times she was just screaming to yank your chain, you could tell. Problem was, it was nearly constant screaming.

So when she started up the screaming, I made her lie down on a little mat, and then I would leave the room. She'd roll off the mat but she'd stay near it, and that was fine with me. It absolutely infuriated her that I would leave the room, as screaming without an audience wasn't working for her. I told her she could get up when she was ready to stop screaming. The screaming STOPPED.

Very quickly, and I mean, VERY quickly (like, in one day), she'd start her screaming and I would ask her, "Do you want to lay down?". She said, "NO." and would then choose not to scream.

But I'm not sure that some mamas here wouldn't find that method of discipline objectionable.

[Jenne]

Sorry, 1st I have to address this: NO! Your mainstream friends DO NOT have "well behaved" kids. Kids do not magically behave because one is mainstream. Your friends kids have all the not-so-wonderful components that go along with having kids. Please! Please! Please! Cut yourself some slack. You are doing the best you can and better than most. Your son loves you. You want to do what is in your child's best interest and that speaks so highly of your parenting skills!

21months is a tough age. Tougher when you add a new baby into the mix. Someone has already mentioned consistency. You might take a minute and have a conversation with your partner about exactly what is and is not okay to play with. You might also discuss how you will deal with melt downs as well so that is consistent too.

If it was me I would do everything I could to engineer an environment where I don't have to say, "No, that is not to be played with." That doesn't mean that I would give in. Let's take the dishwasher as the example...they make a several really neat thing that keeps the dishwasher from being able to be opened or the buttons pushed (I think they are safety latches, if you want more info I'll look into it for you) and then I would attach them with his help saying something like, "Help me put the dishwasher's safety latch on please. We are doing this because the dishwasher is not a toy and this will help us to remember not to play with it. See that isn't any fun when the door won't open or the buttons won't go. Let's go do something fun." I would make sure that these were always in place so that it can't be messed with. If I saw him drawn to it, as someone else said, I would offer an alternative activity. This takes you out of the role of bad guy yet enforces the rule.

Another idea, why not let him help with the dishes? Loading and unloading silverware is certainly appropriate if he shows an interest. Maybe he wants to do what he sees you doing? Or if this isn't a possibility give him another "job" to do like sweeping or sorting the pots and pans???

I have a feeling though that like someone else said this is his way of power struggling with you. The more times you can engineer a situation via distraction or avoidance the fewer meltdowns you will have is my guess. Also, it may be an attention thing. When he meltsdown you are right there giving him 100% of your attention. If you think that may be what is going on, you might try the, "You need to use gentle touch or you will need to go into the other room" idea. At the first sign of hitting/biting/spitting/kicking/scratching I would state the above. Offer the opportunity for change. If I counted to 10 slowly in my head and nothing changed I would say, "You are not being gentle. You need to go to the other room." If he is together enough and willing enough to take himself into the other room fine. If not I would take him into the other room and tell him when he can be gentle he may be with you again. Again, this is not a standard "time out" etc but if you think his acting out is due to attention seeking via hitting etc.

No matter what you choose to do or not do I think I would also increase my one on one time with ds. Say 20-30 minutes during baby's nap or in the evening when partner had the baby. I would try to make this time about ds and what he wants to do.

Last thing and I'll be quiet Kids mirror our level of stress/anxiety. The more upset you become the more upset he is going to become. Remember that this isn't personal he is just having a tough time. If you don't know what to do try singing quietly to yourself, do a verbal "Om", take deep breaths and make an audible sound on exhale, or do some slow stretches. Yes, I mean in the moment Not only will it help you to stay calm but it might even distract him.

You are doing great! Hang in there!

Jenne

[Sarihah]

Originally Posted by Jenne

No matter what you choose to do or not do I think I would also increase my one on one time with ds. Say 20-30 minutes during baby's nap or in the evening when partner had the baby. I would try to make this time about ds and what he wants to do.Jenne

Jenne, our family counselor told me (when my daughter was very young) that in his Parenting Research practice, he found that 20 minutes of CHILD DIRECTED play, three times a week, made a phenomenal impact on behavioral issues. He said it was more effective than anything else he'd seen.

[Britishmum]

One thing I find works better than 'no, you can't play in the dishwasher' is suggesting something really enthusiastic and exciting, like "Hey, look! Can you help me wash the toy cars here?" while putting a bowl down with water and a sponge - or if you dont have energy to orchestrate a new activity, suggesting something (enthusiastically adn excitedly) that they really like to do - for my kids, it's suddenly 'noticing' that the cat needs feeding (even if she doesnt really).

It's hard, especially as you have a baby to deal with too, but I find that if I put the energy into averting the tantrum, things work out much better for us in the long run.

But remember that tantrums are normal. If your mainstream friends' kids dont have them, lucky them. Chances are they just have more mellow kids. My first dd rarely, if ever, tantrumed. #2 does it constantly - at one time, it was often 20 or 30 a day, regardless of how I tried to handle them. But she's almost three, and they are far less frequent now, so hold onto the fact that this too will pass.

The other thing that strikes me from your post is the feeling that you are emotionally upset by witnessing your ds being upset. I find that hard to relate too, as I can feel quite objective about my kids' behaviour when they tantrum. That's not to say that I don't care, but I do not get emotionally embroiled in how they feel. I see it as normal, and that I have the job of helping them move on. I think if you get too emotional about it you can give mixed messages and the feeling that you are not giving security and guidance - my children don't see me getting upset about their behaviour, and I don't go to hug them after a tantrum because of my feelings (eg guilt). I move to hug when I think they need it to move them on from the tantrum. In other words, I am the adult, and it is not an emotionally charged situation when my kids have a quite normal toddler tantrum.

Does this make sense? I think you need to let go of the guilt and emotion, and look at it more objectively, so that you respond rationally and not driven by emotion. That should help you not to yell - look at it as a job you need to do to help your child learn to manage his emotions, not as evidence of how good or bad your parenting is.

HTH.

[Embee]

Originally Posted by Sarihah

Jenne, our family counselor told me (when my daughter was very young) that in his Parenting Research practice, he found that 20 minutes of CHILD DIRECTED play, three times a week, made a phenomenal impact on behavioral issues. He said it was more effective than anything else he'd seen.

Ah, Playful Parenting at its best!

When DS and I are supremely connected, there are few discipline issues to deal with, and even when they do come up, they are easy for us both to handle and move on from... again, because we are supremely connected. The best way to be connected to my son? Join him in *HIS* world. PLAY PLAY PLAY! Play is his domain and he gets to take the lead, he gets to be in charge. The more I make time to join DS in his world, the more ammenable he is when I need him to join mine.

21 months is a GREAT and AMAZING age. Its still VERY young. VERY. When you use words about discipline like, "not working" remind yourself that discipline is a work in progress and that children need LOTS and LOTS of gentle reminders, and even still will need more later. More helpful, are alternatives that can hopefully get at the need he is trying to fulfil; someone mentioned filling up the sink with bubbles, great! Anything sensory at this age was a huge and positive distraction.

My advice is to say YES as often as possible and really think before you set limits: Is this truly damaging or unsafe or is it merely annoying and I can let it go until it passes all too quickly? Often times, an obsession is fueled simply by a parent "making it an issue." When DS was interested in something that perhaps wasn't overtly dangerous, but had the potential to damage, I would stop, and play WITH him. I'd explain the item to him and be there to make sure it was touched gently. Usually, most of these things fall away once the curiosity is satisfied and by my not making it "an issue" I didn't fuel an unnatural obsession with it.

The best thing I ever did in these situation aside from the above advice, was to check things from DS's point of view... to be thwarted from above several times a day can be really daunting for a little guy so I did my best to say YES whenever and wherever possible, but if I had to, I'd offer a safe alternative. And yes, VERY occasionally I'd have to flat out thwart and a tantrum would ensue. I emotion coached VERY briefly at this age, "You are so angry! You wish you could play with that and I wish I could let you. I'm here for you." Give space if he needs it, but stay close. When things calm, reconnect... offer a hug or even better, sit down on the floor where he is and play.

Sometimes its very easy to get caught up in behavior, but in the end, its the relationship with your child that truly matters (thank you Alfie Kohn, Lawrence Cohen and Gordon Neufeld!).

My .02 for what its worth.

Hang in there mama!

[Sarihah]

Originally Posted by Embee

Ah, Playful Parenting at its best!

When DS and I are supremely connected, there are few discipline issues to deal with, and even when they do come up, they are easy for us both to handle and move on from... again, because we are supremely connected. The best way to be connected to my son? Join him in *HIS* world. PLAY PLAY PLAY! Play is his domain and he gets to take the lead, he gets to be in charge. The more I make time to join DS in his world, the more ammenable he is when I need him to join mine.

21 months is a GREAT and AMAZING age. Its still VERY young. VERY. When you use words about discipline like, "not working" remind yourself that discipline is a work in progress and that children need LOTS and LOTS of gentle reminders, and even still will need more later. More helpful, are alternatives that can hopefully get at the need he is trying to fulfil; someone mentioned filling up the sink with bubbles, great! Anything sensory at this age was a huge and positive distraction.

My advice is to say YES as often as possible and really think before you set limits: Is this truly damaging or unsafe or is it merely annoying and I can let it go until it passes all too quickly? Often times, an obsession is fueled simply by a parent "making it an issue." When DS was interested in something that perhaps wasn't overtly dangerous, but had the potential to damage, I would stop, and play WITH him. I'd explain the item to him and be there to make sure it was touched gently. Usually, most of these things fall away once the curiosity is satisfied and by my not making it "an issue" I didn't fuel an unnatural obsession with it.

The best thing I ever did in these situation aside from the above advice, was to check things from DS's point of view... to be thwarted from above several times a day can be really daunting for a little guy so I did my best to say YES whenever and wherever possible, but if I had to, I'd offer a safe alternative. And yes, VERY occasionally I'd have to flat out thwart and a tantrum would ensue. I emotion coached VERY briefly at this age, "You are so angry! You wish you could play with that and I wish I could let you. I'm here for you." Give space if he needs it, but stay close. When things calm, reconnect... offer a hug or even better, sit down on the floor where he is and play.

Sometimes its very easy to get caught up in behavior, but in the end, its the relationship with your child that truly matters (thank you Alfie Kohn, Lawrence Cohen and Gordon Neufeld!).

My .02 for what its worth.

Hang in there mama!

Phenomenal post!!!

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by Sarihah

I'd let him get it out of his system, but I would refuse to be held captive to his tantrum. He'd have to have it out of my sight.

How is allowing him to have a tantrum without getting involved being "held captive" to it?

Kids at this age have tantrums. Its completely normal. Getting involved in the tantrum escalates it every single time. I've got the tantrum queen living with me, I've done it and seen it. She doesn't tantrum much anymore, but if she does I just let her have at it, make sure she's safe and knows I love her and am nearby when she's done. We're both much more sane with that.

[septmommy]

Thanks so much for all of your input. Some of what was posted I already "knew", but seeing it in print made me really take notice. I knew we were in a power struggle, but I had failed to see that as the adult it was my responsibility to end it. I had become angry and resentful about his behavior and reading your responses helped me take a step back and reconnect with him. I had become so focused on making him "obey" that I had stopped enjoying his free little spirit. I had taken every tantrum as a sign of my bad parenting and became obsessed with proving myself. Thank you, thank you, thank you for helping me to let those silly ideas go and start working again to make sure he is whole, happy, and healthy. I read the posts last night and woke up determined to start anew. We have had a wonderful day with lots of playing together and we've avoided many potential power struggles. I know I'll have to work hard on this every day, but I'm hoping I'm at least going in the right direction now.

[mainegirl]

Originally Posted by Britishmum

or if you dont have energy to orchestrate a new activity, suggesting something (enthusiastically adn excitedly) that they really like to do - for my kids, it's suddenly 'noticing' that the cat needs feeding (even if she doesnt really).

This made me laugh, because in my mind's eye I immediately saw a tired-looking mom and a REALLY fat cat.

:LOL