Our friend & the US cultural prevalence of pride about birth interventions

[TurboClaudia]

My partner's former co-worker just had their second baby at the end of June. We bumped into them last night at a local farmer's market and I was chatting with the mama for a few minutes, and I've been thinking about what she said.

They are both really outdoorsy, active people, and she is definitely a breastfeeding advocate and nursed their older daughter until well into toddlerhood. But when I asked the mama when their new baby boy's birthday was, she told me and then said that she was induced and that he was born with forceps following an episiotomy. I said, oh, that's uncomfortable, and she said, laughingly, I had an epidural.

I know nothing more about the birthing situation, why her labor was induced, if she had always planned an epidural or if it was a decision made later. She did say she wanted to avoid an episiotomy since she had had one during her her daughter's birth, again, I don't know for what reasons, but when it became apparent that a forceps-assisted delivery was likely, she even asked them to turn up the epidural.

Why, then, do I detect a hint of pride in the necessity of her son being born with forceps? She didn't even refer to it as a forceps-assisted delivery, but that he was "born with forceps", not that she birthed him and they used forceps to help. She also seemed very proud that she had an epidural.

Am I just reading into her comments too much? It's hard to translate into writing the mood I received when talking to her. She knows I'm a natural birth proponent, and that our son was born at home, and that I'm a doula and educator. I'm happy that their baby boy is here safe and healthy, and that mama did not birth surgically via cesarean, but maybe I just want her to want more from the experience...

We aren't that good friends with them, but we do see them quite regularly, and we do enjoy their company. Would it be okay for me to ask her about her birth at some point? How would you frame the questions? What would be the important things for me to keep in mind as I talk to her? Although some people consider me good at holding back my thoughts and emotions and framing things in a positive way, I feel like it is a struggle to do this since my heart and mind tell me the cultural prevalence of pride about birth intervention is ill-placed.

~claudia

[BinahYeteirah]

bs"d

Maybe she wasn't proud. Maybe she just knows that you are, "a natural birth proponent," etc. and wanted to just tell you her birth wasn't so natural right away. I don't know, to get it "out of the way". I don't know this woman at all or if you had ever spoken to her about her birth plans during her pregnancy. Maybe she is one of the many women who go into birth thinking that they will do whatever seems necessary at the time just to get through the experience. I know many women who say during pregnancy that they will try not to get an epidural/an episiotomy/other intervention, but "if I really need it then I'm not going to be upset." Just sort-of wishy-washy, whatever the dr. thinks is best, is okay. For someone with that mindset, I would think it might be necessary to make peace with what is done and convince oneself that it was for the best. If I were going to bring up birth with this woman I would say something like, "So, did you like the epidural?" or "How did you feel about your baby being born with forceps? How was that different from last time?" To me, that doesn't sound judgmental and it's pretty open-ended.

[mmaramba]

Actually, Claudia, I agree.

What the PP said may also be true, but a lot of our culture's language around birth is very adversarial and competitive. We have a lot invested in the "inherent danger" of birth, so we are encouraged to tell horror stories, since the best we can hope for is martyrdom.

The funny thing is that this translates into the way mainstream birthers view NCBers/HBers-- they assume the only reason we'd do it is to "be able to say we did," or "prove something" or "be martyrs," when, in fact, we've usually chosen NCB/HB because we are trying to get AWAY from that, AVOID unnecessary pain, etc.

My $.02.

[orangebird]

She might feel bad, like she gave up some power during the birth, and compensating, trying to sound, perhaps even just to convince herself, that she is really fine with what happenned, that she wanted it in a way. I don't know. I wasn't there to hear her tone and I don't know her, but that is another reason for the possible happiness of it all, plus her baby is here and she is happy and healthy so she isn't beating herself up.

[LoveChild421]

I agree with you too Claudia- I am a Psychology student and so this aspect of birth culture really peaks my interest.

Originally posted by mmaramba
What the PP said may also be true, but a lot of our culture's language around birth is very adversarial and competitive. We have a lot invested in the "inherent danger" of birth, so we are encouraged to tell horror stories, since the best we can hope for is martyrdom.

The funny thing is that this translates into the way mainstream birthers view NCBers/HBers-- they assume the only reason we'd do it is to "be able to say we did," or "prove something" or "be martyrs," when, in fact, we've usually chosen NCB/HB because we are trying to get AWAY from that, AVOID unnecessary pain, etc.

I totally agree with you on this.

I think most women feel the negativity of medicalized birth and while some of us choose to get away from the system and have natural experiences and trust our bodies- most women get "away" from this horrid sort of birth experience through drugs and deluding themselves into thinking they really are in control still, they just "happen" to totally agree with what is done to them or "trust the doctor".

[Messac888]

Maybe not proud, but maybe trying to convince herself that it was 'necessary' to have the interventions that she'd had. I'd recommend talking to her about it, but I'm the kid of person who, upon hearing a birth story, I start grilling for information that's not my business. In a polite way, and usually only with close friends, but once in a while I can't bite my tongue. Example, the other day a friend of a friend was over here with her 9 month old dd, her only babe thus far. We've only met a couple times, but wanted to get our girls together to play. We were talking about why I had a homebirth with my dd and what happened in the hospital with ds that made me refuse to deliver in a hospital ever again. Well, then we were talking about her birth experience. She said she "needed" the epidural (I thought I "needed" it when I had my ds, so I can't really argue that point) and then I said, Please tell me they didn't give you an episiotomy-" "They did. But it's okay, because I NEEDED it," emphasis mine. I asked why she needed it and she kinda stuttered for a moment, like the thought never occurred to her to question the necessity of it, and she finally said, "Pushing was taking too long, I'd already been pusing for 45 minutes! And besides, I would have torn had I delivered without it, and since I had the episiotomy I don't have to worry about any urinary incontinence problems in the future." At that point, I said, "You DO realize you didn't NEED one, right? Most women are routinely subjected to that procedure because it's quick and easy money- and faster for the doctor as well. I think I'd feel incredibly violated if the doctor had shown up on time for my son's birth, since she has the highest rates in the hospital." We talked about it for a while and I loaned her a couple Mothering mags, so maybe she'll acknowledge, at least in hindsight, that episiotomies have their place, but usually aren't needed.

The reason I try to encourage women to question our country's birthing rituals (meds, uneccesary surgeries, etc) is because, if no one questions these practices and demands better for themselves, nothing will ever change.

I'm off my soapbox now.

[jazcat]

Reminds me of the conversation I had with a friend a few days ago. She had a horrible pregnancy, ok l&d and horrible time since the delivery due to a 4th degree tear - she's getting physical therapy for it because sex is extremely painful. Anyway, we are barely into the conversation and she asks "so are you getting an epidural?" I said "I hope not, but keeping an open mind". She says "WHY NOT???" I said "why would I say I'm getting an epidural, drugs, when I don't even know what labor is going to feel like at this point???" She said "that's true". Either she has no clue what problems interventions might pose, or she wants to feel better about her own delivery. I think a little of both. I wanted to say something like "well if you didn't get an epidural, you might have avoided your 4th degree tear since you'd be able to feel things better", but I kept my mouth shut. Not the type of friend I can have a mature, educated conversation about this with. Later on she was bragging about the new hummer SUV they bought as if I was supposed to be jealous But she's a sweet person, we have a long history, but we're never going to be on the same page with this stuff.