Library thoughts - Page 4

[UUMom]

[[Most libraries use checkout and attendance stats to measure summer program success. I had checkout increases of 510% in the teen area when I started a summer reading program for teens. And more teens coming in, asking questions (I kept track); and more feedback from them about what to buy next. It was really amazing. The checkouts dropped again in the fall, but still were higher by 200% from the year before...]]

This is exactly the kind of info I am looking for. Does a voluntary, festive-type summer program of free books and the occasional CG for an ice cream cone keep kids from reading or not?

[Embee]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Em, you mean the 'stop the pay, stop the play' comment? I read that during my flipping, but i didn't think it applied to summer library programming and a free book at the end. You could apply this thinking to free library books, but I saw the author's point as much, much broader that that. (ETA--i didn't finish my thought here). Is there evidence that a free book is 'pay' and will the children stop reading ('play') after being given a free book. I am really wondering.

I do concern myself with extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation in any case. But given that, I'm not always convinced that a huge amount of energy should be put forth to dispute every single case of it. Like with DS, I pick my battles.

As I mentioned in my follow up post, it seems that several children I've noticed here in our town USE the summer reading program so that they may receive a new, free, book of their own, to add to their own "libraries." In this way, it would indeed seem that the "pay" is a way of aquiring books for themselves (a grand thing!), and in doing so, they needed only to do something that they already love doing, reading.

For a child who already loves reading, this could be a great opportunity to receive a book of ones own. OTOH, if the child feels coerced (by a parent's persuasion that they'll get X if they do Y say), well then, it could go a number of ways I suppose. Maybe the child finds out that reading is wonderful and gets a lot out of the experience. Or, maybe the child does it because they want something in return for the efforts, and wence the reward is received, still doesn't have a real intrinsic motivation to read. Or then, maybe the child just isn't interested, prize or no prize and doesn't do the work and doesn't receive the pay and doesn't care either way. Circumstances, personality, the parent's approach... all these variables could effect the outcome greatly. It's clearly not for anyone to say what will happen here. Again, it just depends.

For us?

DS LOVES books. He loves stories, and also books that discuss things he's interested in. He's learned to use the library as a resource for a great many things. I see no reason for him to enter such a program because his love of books, and his use of the library is already in full force. I would hate to dangle a carrott and undermine the message that books should be read and enjoyed for no other reason than just to read and enjoy them. Would he like to receive a free book? I suppose, but we've gotten so in the habit of checking out books week after week, that he looks forward to that in and of itself. We have a small but decent collection of books here at home, mostly due to the Goodwill, and gifts from family members. For us, the program just doesn't really make a lot of sense. And yes, I don't want DS to read because he'll get something in return, I want him to read because he wishes to do so. I'm much more interested in fostering a love and gratefulness for what a resource we have in our library. When DS is a little older, I'm going to sign up to volunteer and invite him to join me if he so wishes.

The best,
Em

[UUMom]

[ And yes, I don't want DS to read because he'll get something in return, I want him to read because he wishes to do so. I'm much more interested in fostering a love and gratefulness for what a resource we have in our library. Em[/QUOTE]

But I am much more interested in this belief in an intellectual sense, rather than an emotional one.

I want to be on the black and white bandwagon, simply to avoid posting again and again. LOL But this attitude doesn't make any intellectual sense to me. Does someone have actual data showing that kids only read because their library gives them something, or do not have a love love of the library if they are in these programs? Are you saying these two these things cannot happen in such programming? Are they mutually exclusive? And if you they are, "for us", on what research did you base your decision? (And i also mean the collective 'you'-- the posters of this thread who do not participate in summer programming or see them as a negative experience).

I am trying to get at people's motivation in asking what data they are using when they choose not to attend summer programming. Is there fire where there is smoke? Is there any smoke? Is this *really* an issue? If (some) libraires do experience a surge in youth book circulation after summer programming, where is the opposite data showing damage? If one were to choose not to participate for fear of this damage , knowing what the damge is, and how the researchers interpreted the data to determine damage, would be, i think, important to know. On what particualr info are people basing their decisions.

To that end, I think one should communicate these findings with community libraries so that they might improve programming , therefore reach more people.

[Linda on the move]

Does someone have actual data showing that kids only read because their library gives them something, or do not have a love love of the library if they are in these programs?

I haven't seen studies of summer reading programs, but there are studies in "Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn showing that kids who are rewarded with pizza for reading do less reading after the program is over than they did before it began.

I am trying to get at people's motivation in asking what data they are using when they choose not to attend summer programming.

ummmm, I've said as many negative things about rewards for reading as anybody, but we participate in the summer reading program! We are at the library anyway, my kids can read the signs, so telling them "no" would be just be weird.

[UUMom]

Kohn's research was done with children who did not have a choice, however. Are voluntary library programs the same?

And I love Kohn--I think he is brilliant, but I don't think his final data interpretation is unbiased. He set out with an agenda. We know this can often skew results, and the subsequent interpretation of that data.

I am also intrigued with the idea that people would participate in these programs when some research suggests children will read less afterwards.

I hope I do not sound argumentaive as i don't feel that way. In fact, I am rather excited to participate in this intellectual excersize.

I am so curious...so thanks for going along with me, Linda. I appreciate it! And Em, too! I love to debate ideas.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by loraeileen

- we visit schools ... talk about all the things they might like - I'd bring WWF books and movie-tie-ins, and graphic novels, and pop-culture magazines i know they'd like. and try to convince them to bring their parents in so they could check them out. We talk about getting a library card - everything.

I think all of this is great! None of what you are listing is about rewards.

but some of these children have literally NEVER had praise or positive feedback or encouragement for reading. They've been told they're stupid or lazy or a bad reader or they've been forced to read so many crappy books (readers) at school they think there's nothing for them at the library.

A real conversation with a librarian about a good book is a far different thing than giving a trinket. In all the time we've spent doing summer reading programs, we've only had ONE person talk to DDs about what they read. Only one, and she was a teen volunteer, not a librarian. She smiled really big and said, "So what was your favorite book that you read?" Most just give the prizes (we've done this in 3 different cities)

A librarian is more worried about the kids who say, "the library is boring. i hate books. why would I wanna read a stupid book?" than our nice, avidly reading-and-library-using children who don't need prizes at all. Not that complaints about summer programs will fall on deaf ears - a good librarian listens - but our kids are not really, uh...the larger target audience.

I understand that. I know that my kids are not the target. None the less, I suspect that *many* of the kids in the summer reading program are kids like mine who would be at the library anyway. When we lived in a city that gave tickets to a minor league ball game as a reward, we ran into a ton of homeschoolers at the game!

The checkouts dropped again in the fall, but still were higher by 200% from the year before...

That sounds very, very successful. It also sounds like there is a lot more to your program than rewards. You are doing a lot to let the kids know what kind of things you have at the library and then providing a positive experience for them once you get there. How do you know that it is the rewards that are causing the success rather than the other things?

[UUMom]

[[That sounds very, very successful. It also sounds like there is a lot more to your program than rewards. You are doing a lot to let the kids know what kind of things you have at the library and then providing a positive experience for them once you get there.]]

Which makes library programming very different from school reward systems. They do not appear to be the same. Which is why I cannot easily extrapolate that the same 'damge' we see in Kohn's work applies here. I mean, it might, but how do we know enough to say for sure--sure enough to say we won't let our kids participate? But if we do let them participate, how do we know they won't suffer some damage from it? And if there is damge, would it be reversable?


[[ How do you know that it is the rewards that are causing the success rather]]

But how do we know it's not?

edited for spelling

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Which makes library programming very different from school reward systems. They do not appear to be the same. Which is why I cannot easily extrapolate that the same 'damge' we see in Kohn's work applies here.

Kohn looks at many many studies of rewards in a wide variety of settings. Much of Punished by Rewards is about grown ups in the work place. The one study I can recall about rewards for reading was pizza, but there are numerous studies showing that rewarding a behavoir is counterproductive.

But if we do let them participate, how do we know they won't suffer some damage from it? And if there is damge, would it be reversable?

I think that my children are not damaged by the summer reading program because we read so much all the time that the program makes no difference in how much they read. None at all. They aren't changing their behavoir to get a reward, they are just keeping track of what they would be doing anyway AND because I do not force them or even encourage them to do it. They are doing it of their own free will and are free to stop at any moment.

My kids are more excited about putting their names on the wall at the library than other reward, I think it makes them feel like the library is really theirs.

[UUMom]

All conjecture, but i can handle that.

ETA--I thought I closed this, not sent it. lol

So ok, I'll finish my thought. Is it only other people's kids who might suffer from library rewards/programs? Is the child who has non -reading parents become more likely or less likely to suffer damage because they are not exposed to other book-loving and reading activities? And how do we know? What makes some of us confident that certain children can take the ice cream cone GC and not suffer, but others can't? I am pretty sure I agree with you that your kids won't be among the casualties, Linda. Who are these 'other kids', actually?

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Linda. Who are these 'other kids', actually?

I personally feel that rewards get in the way of a child developing intrinsic motivation. Although I think that is true for all kids, it really doesn't matter what I think about any child other than my own.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

That sounds very, very successful. It also sounds like there is a lot more to your program than rewards. You are doing a lot to let the kids know what kind of things you have at the library and then providing a positive experience for them once you get there. How do you know that it is the rewards that are causing the success rather than the other things?

The rewards get them IN the library door. The librarian-patron relationship is what keeps them there. If your librarian doesn't create relationships, then s/he is either burnt out (very likely) or doesn't understand the real purpose of summer reading.

Seriously, if I showed up at public elementary schools and said "we're having a summer reading program and we've got lots of great books but nothing to give you" the non-reading kids would not make the effort to come down. But for children who hardly ever "get" anything - from parents or anyone else - a free book or trinket is a lot. The idea of "free" for doing a bit of reading (reading is, in of itself, not necessarily an idea of value compared to money or fame or hanging out with friends) is an impressive thing. This is with city children of lower-income means whose parents do not read. In suburban communities, the teens were also excited about having something to do in the summer and a goal to work towards; a pizza party for all participants who wanted to come; and coupons and such for books read.

Libraries are totally all about bribery (esp with teens - pizza parties will get them in the door like nobody's business) but if you're a smart librarian, you really see it as "marketing and outreach." Then it becomes NOT about the prize at the end but how you've kept them interested and engaged in the library and its materials.

I agree totally philosophically with Linda on the Move - and I don't praise or reward my own child for these things - but my daughter also sees the intrinsic value within our home, and we set a daily example of the importance of certain things (art, music, literature, etc). Things are much more complicated in the larger context of US society though.

[UUMom]

I think it's quite interesting to discuss these ideas! I really appreciate being able to do this with all of you!

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by loraeileen

The rewards get them IN the library door. The librarian-patron relationship is what keeps them there. ... Libraries are totally all about bribery (esp with teens - pizza parties will get them in the door like nobody's business) but if you're a smart librarian, you really see it as "marketing and outreach."

I'm glad that you've explained this! It has always bugged me that they library is using their limited resources in a way that I see as counterproductive.

A couple of things about our librarys summer reading program make more sense to me. We had to sign up on the library's WEB site. You could do it from home or the library, but you had to visit the site. If part of the point of the program is to get you in the library, may be part of the point of the way they did the sign up was to get you to go to the WEB site (so you know it is there?)

After you signed up on-line and visited the library for the first time, you got a coupon for a free ice cream cone. The point of that was to -- get them in the library for the first time.

These things seemed silly to me before but now they make more sense.

I think we totally agree that if the prizes are the end of the story the program isn't going to turn kids into long term library patrons or readers.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

I think we totally agree that if the prizes are the end of the story the program isn't going to turn kids into long term library patrons or readers.

Yup!

The website thing is clever, as long as the majority of patrons live in a town where there's high connectivity. I still like having kids come in to sign up, because then, at my library we usually ask them if they have a library card yet, and hopefully they've gotten their parents in the door too at that point (depending on the neighborhood - some kids are allowed far more independence in some than others).

The funny thing is that I've been so influenced by Kohn, et al, that I have a hard time just saying "good job"/pat on the head like a lot of librarians - I have to say "wow, I see that you read ten books. Did you read them by yourself or with help? By yourself?! And which one was your favorite? How do you feel about reading all ten? Of course you know children who like to read books should have one of their own and we have a box here..." etc. And they just beam...and some of my coworkers look at me funny...

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by loraeileen

The website thing is clever, as long as the majority of patrons live in a town where there's high connectivity.

But you can use the computers at the library It gives the librarians a chance to point out the computers and explain which ones have internet access and which one are just for library stuff (you could sign up on either).

I have to say "wow, I see that you read ten books. Did you read them by yourself or with help? By yourself?! And which one was your favorite? How do you feel about reading all ten? Of course you know children who like to read books should have one of their own and we have a box here..." etc. And they just beam...and some of my coworkers look at me funny...

That is so much better for the kids! You should get a gold star or a sticker or something :LOL