Pagans:The relationship between magic and prayer

[Arduinna]

Do you see a relationship between magic and prayer?

While reading some books on the greek curse tablets it's was really interesting to see the detail and type of info that was included. Some of the "curse tablets" were basic things like requests for healing but some were detailed revenge requests against enemies or detailed info on legal cases and pleas for victory in court. And I thought of many people that ask for those things but don't specifically think of them in magical terms.

In this case I'm defining magic as a set of actions and thoughts with the intent of manifesting a desire or need. So is prayer also a form of magic? Assuming you write your own spells do you consider the words a prayer?

It can be confusing since prayer can be different things to different people. As an offering I often recite from the homeric or orphic hymns. But I don't see those as magic, since they are strictly words of praise. And other than asking for general blessings from the Gods they don't ask for specific stuff. No make me rich or whatever, lol.

So what's your definition??

[Lilac Moon]

Aahhh, GOOD ONE!

I'm thinking on that and will reply soon. My mind is also weighing the role that ritual plays in this relationship...... * scratching head and pacing the floor in contemplation*



i'll be back.

[yoga]

Arduinna, I've been thinking the same thing! I totally see magic as an extension of the prayer concept. I think magic is a form of prayer, as are words of devotion. I think they come from the same place inside of us, and I think real or deep prayer can lead to the same spiritual trip as magic.

[Arduinna]

Lilac, I await your return .......... :-)

Chaka, thanks for posting we haven't gotten much traffic on this one. You know, I can see how spellwork can be a combination of offering and prayer :-)

[HipMomma3913]

I often describe spellwork (especially when I'm talking to non-Pagans) as being a Ritual form of prayer. I truly believe that a spell is just a prayer with more planning. It contains objects and implements to help us focus our intent, but ultimately the goal is the same: To ask the Goddess to intercede on our behalf. And just like in prayer, sometimes what we want just isn't possible/right for us.

I highly recomment the book "A Book of Pagan Prayer" he spends a lot of time talking about prayer and offerings, and how they should fit into a Pagan/Wiccan life.

Hope this helps!

HipMomma

[Clarity]

I am starting Hutton's Triumph of the Moon right now, and he's briefly touched on this so far...High Magic, like the Golden Dawn folks, being more a form of meditation on the divine (ie prayer) involving perhaps a vision or revelation, rather than having the expectation of causing an event to occur (love, money, etc.) This book is giving me a lot of little connections about how things have evolved, and that I've observed...it's a good read so far.

[earthmamafor3]

I'm with Hipmomma, I have always explained magic as a physical manifestation of prayer, or ritual prayer. It helps people more familiar with christianity get past the "bewitched" kinds of ideasabout magic:LOL

Some great book ideas, thanks everyone!

I still think even when we are praising it sets forth an energy vibration that aligns us with the Goddess/Creator that manifests in the reality of our thoughts. Appreciation always connects and opens.

blessings

[Meiri]

I think magic and prayer are basically the same.

You've got prayers asking for help/desired results/desired objects and you've got spells for obtaining the same things.

You've got prayer that is a deep connection with the Divine and magic or meditation that is a deep connection with the Divine.

I think magic/spells imply that the person asking has more control of the process or result than prayer implies, or at least that's the perception. Whether it's really that way or not????

I also see a spell as focussing your own mind on the goal so that you then work harder or more effectively to achieve it. That does not require any kind of Divine intervention, nor does it request it. In that way magic can different from prayer.

[candiland]

I think the average Joe's idea of "prayer" consists of asking things of a higher deity. Whereas someone who performs "magic" realizes that the higher deity actually resides in themselves; ie, their own minds, or souls, or whatever they may call it, and that their personal god or soul connects to an intricate framework of consciousness that defines the common mans' definition of "God".

[yoga]

It's very interesting to talk abt prayer, as so many have different yet similar concepts. I was raised Christian half my life, Muslim the other. Both focus on a "superior being" w/control over everything and everyone. Both say to pray for salvation and anything else you want. Both imply that nothing is under your control. I always had a problem w/that, but I prayed diligently. I remember that as a teen, I didn't pray for anything that I couldn't do anything with directly. Like, I used to pray for strength to get through situations. I still do prayers of that sort, and stay away from asking for love, jewels, etc. I love magic b/c I've always felt that during prayer I should be doing something. Even tho I don't use magic often (I don't think I've prepared myself enough for the powerfulness of it), I do certain activities while saying my prayers. Some ppl would still call it magic, I suppose, but magic (to me) implies a lot more power and awareness than a ritual prayer. I see magic, ritual prayer, and regular prayer as 3 different grades of the same medium.

[swngrrl]

Raised Catholic, I was taught that there are different types of prayer. Prayers of praise/devotion, thanksgiving, and intercession. (The "Our Father" is considered the archetype perfect prayer b/c it includes all three and was intended to be an example of how to pray.)

I still agree with this. Magic and spellwork are related, but not the same thing. Magic is the process of changing our reality, and spellwork is a tool to assist with this. Prayers of intercession (the give me prayers) frequently have the same goals as spellwork, but the sources are different. Prayers are directed to the goddes whereas spellwork is usually directed to our sacred/spiritual/divine/higher Selves.

I think they both have a place within the pagan paths. It seems that the concept of prayer is entering the pagan community more and more, and I for one am glad to see it.

BB

[marymom]

I think prayer is pretty individual, as are spells but for me~
prayers for specific things(please God help me to win my court case, please goddess let me get this job,)when said with intention of receiving help are the same as spells done to achieve the goal,
I have problems praying or doing spell work for specific goals like this(the old adage...watch out, you might get what you pray for)~ whether it be a specific prayer or spell I have always had very tangible results and those results have often had hefty consequences that I did not care for so I have a bit of...I hesitate to use the word fear, I will choose awareness of my own lack of divine wisdom ...that makes me choose to make offerings for strength and clarity, wisdom, prosperity as the divine beings see fit...rather that pray or work a spel specifically for something,
It is very possible my outlook on these things may change, this is only my present day opinion

[Lilac Moon]

I believe that Prayer and Magick are basically the same. Esp prayer that involves ritual. ( IMHO... a ceremony in reverence to a higher power is considered prayer..some of the rituals I have seen in the church are very similar to Pagan )

I rarely do spells for comfort , I focus more on clarity, protection, and a spiritual connection. I believe that when we are in the light with the Goddess/Creator.. when we are on our path, then we are open to changing what is desired. It becomes a spiritual clarity that follows and direct us in all things, whether it be healing, scared, or finding the best parking spot.

[DebraBaker]

I was reading a Madeline L'Engle book and one of her characters said that prayer is an act of love. (another character wondered why people pray since G-d already knows everything.)

Perhaps that act of love itself does wonders in the spiritual world.

Debra Baker

[Arduinna]

Love this thread :-)

As an offshoot of magic and prayer, I've been thinking alot lately about the different forms of pagan prayers, and sources of them. You know, traditional pagan prayers and modern ones. I haven't read the book of pagan prayer. I usually use the Orphic hymns and sometimes the Homeric Hymns. Those are usually just prayers of honor. Although the Homeric Hymns can tell stories of the Gods which I guess is also a form of honor. Remembering who they are and their stories. I sometimes write my own also.

What is everyone elses favorite source for prayers??

[DaryLLL]

When I pray, if I do, I find myself chanting or imaging OM. Words get in the way. Too many words to describe the undescribable.

OM just ties me in to the universal life force. The whole earth and all its inhabitants, human-animal/vegetable/mineral, the elements-fire, water, air, earth and pneuma, all are one. If we see this, there is no conflict. We grow, we change, we experience pain (as meat puppets), but, we are untimately safe as spirit.

[Arduinna]

meat puppets, lolol

Thanks Dar

[DaryLLL]

I said "untimately." I meant ultimately, I think!

[Meiri]

I tend to find myself turning inward and saying "Mother, help me find my patience/strength....."whatever it is I need in that moment of dealing with DS being his obnoxious 12 yr old self instead of his helpful loving responsible 12 yr old self.

[Arduinna]

((hugs)) Meiri

sounds like a commonly used prayer