Is Nightweaning an aspect of Child Led Weaning? - Page 2

[Rainbow Brite]

Originally Posted by TiredX2

Not really the point, but I wanted to point out that when I nightweaned DD (at 25 months) it was for 4-5 HOURS a night, not "half the day" (twelve hours). I point this out because it emphasizes how many shades of grey there are within CLW. For example, if a person came on and said that there 25 month old had CLW, there would be support. So it feels kind of odd that my attempts to get at four consecutive hours of sleep and demand feeding the rest of the time is somehow "less than" if you kwim. Of course, as we have previously discussed, because of that nightweaning and the limits I placed starting early in pregnancy I do not consider DD to have been "truly" CLW.

Now DS, who didn't give me that 4 hours for another 18 months past DD... he'll be CLW

I totally get what you are saying. I think there are tons of shades between the two examples. I would never want to assume to say if someone was clw, or mama-led weaning. Just for me personally, if I nightweaned, I would consider that mama-led. However, if I weaned one or two (or x) number of nursings to get 4 hours of sleep, at a certain age, I certiantly would not be feeling guilty! Also, I don't consider any type of weaning "less than" unless it was under a year. But that's just my personal take, I'm really just happy there are so many moms going past the year. And believe me, I am NO expert on clw, I just come here for encouragement

[UrbanPlanter]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Brite

I don't see anything horrible about people choosing to night-wean, it's just not clw in my opinion, doesn't mean it isn't in others opinions. I also don't think that doing so excludes one from any forum. If people encouraged ppl to nightwean in this forum, I wouldn't be to thrilled, but other than that, I think it's great ppl are bf for as long as they are
I think setting limits can be beneficial for the mom, but to me, setting limits against half the entire day is mom led more than child led. But I have no judgement for those who do this, I'm just happy so many babes are getting great milk as long as they are

as surprised as you all may be, I totally agree with this post

but I also agree with what Tired said about the shades of gray of what the duration of the night-weaned period could be (in her case, 4-5 hours); but I imagine in many cases, it tends to be a much longer stretch (or, at least, this is what I've gotten anecdotally).

Also, I don't believe that you can never say "no" to a nursing request. I've been saying "no" I think since ds was a baby - like, when I really needed to go potty or take a shower or something; sometimes baby/toddler had to wait a minute or two. And, by the same token, I've said (or tried to say) "no" at night, when I just didn't think I could bear to nurse another minute - but ds would present such a dramatic protest that it wasn't worth putting him off since it would wake the entire family and disturb everyone's sleep for an extended period. So I nursed. And this is why I can't nightwean. DS is just too strong-willed and vocal about his need in the middle of the night.

Basically, I'm jealous that other mamas can.


In any case, I like the CLW forum as a haven from talk about weaning, which is why nightweaning discourse here bothers me. On the other hand, I appreciate what has been pointed out in this thread as far as discussing nightweaning in a forum where one might be more likely to receive encouragement to stick it out with nursing, or info leading towards understanding the benefits of long-term night nursing.

[TiredX2]

Originally Posted by UrbanPlanter

Basically, I'm jealous that other mamas can.

I so hear you there. It gets both depressing and frustrating. I do think I could nightwean DS (probably easily), but I don't *need* to so I don't. And until I felt I really needed to with DD it didn't work either. So I always have that to fall back on.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by TiredX2

Not really the point, but I wanted to point out that when I nightweaned DD (at 25 months) it was for 4-5 HOURS a night, not "half the day" (twelve hours). I point this out because it emphasizes how many shades of grey there are within CLW.

I completely agree. And for this reason, I really think "night-weaning" is a misnomer. It's not weaning at all and, IMO, setting limits at night when the child is developmentally (physically and emotionally) ready for it is consistent with CLW.

[MamaE]

Originally Posted by UrbanPlanter

Basically, I'm jealous that other mamas can.

Another jealous mama here. : When we all mother/nurse our children as they require, we're doing OK, aren't we? As long as we respect their needs, I mean. It's just that some of us have children whose needs are, well, just *more* in every way!! :LOL

[mom2threenurslings]

Am I the only one who enjoys night nursing? I'm SO looking forward to having a newborn again and waking up to a tiny rooting mouth!!!

[UrbanPlanter]

Originally Posted by mom2threenurslings

Am I the only one who enjoys night nursing? I'm SO looking forward to having a newborn again and waking up to a tiny rooting mouth!!!

45 lbs rolling all over you throughout the night ain't no newborn!

[mom2threenurslings]

Oh...should I have mentioned that the new baby will have competition from my 35 lbs 3 yr old as well? :LOL (Or that, by morning, I usually have a 3 yr old, 5 yr old and 6.5 yr old in bed with me - the 3 yr old and 5 yr old still nursing? )

[TiredX2]

Originally Posted by mom2threenurslings

Oh...should I have mentioned that the new baby will have competition from my 35 lbs 3 yr old as well? :LOL (Or that, by morning, I usually have a 3 yr old, 5 yr old and 6.5 yr old in bed with me - the 3 yr old and 5 yr old still nursing? )

I've bowed to you before, so it won't be the first time.

I enjoy stroking DS's head as he nurses during the night. But, seriously, sleeping no more than 4 hours in a row for the past seven years, many of those years being no more than 1 hour at a time, I'm done. If DS started sleeping 9pm-5am tonight I might miss his babyhood but I wouldn't miss the nightwaking.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by mom2threenurslings

Am I the only one who enjoys night nursing? I'm SO looking forward to having a newborn again and waking up to a tiny rooting mouth!!!

I used to really enjoy it. Even when ds was between 1 and 2 years. I loved being able to connect with him like that, even for the few seconds before I fell back asleep.

I have to admit that I lost the love when it was every 45 minutes for month after month, though. Plus, he started favoring laying far away from me while he was nursing... and not being particularly well-endowed, it really hurt!

[TiredX2]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

I have to admit that I lost the love when it was every 45 minutes for month after month, though. Plus, he started favoring laying far away from me while he was nursing... and not being particularly well-endowed, it really hurt!

I generally insist that DS lies on his side next to me close, because a lot of times he will try to roll on his back and scoot away with the nipple still clamped firmly!

[~Kira~]

Child-led Night Weaning = Okee-dokee


Mother-led Night Weaning = Better suited topic for one of the other BFing boards



My DS Dante (now 21 months old) night-weaned on his own at 10 months old. I remember waking up at 3 am, covered in sweat, freaking out of my mind, thinking "The baby is dead, OMG!" because he hadn't woken up to nurse.

I guess he was just ready for it.

I think that child-led night weaning topics/posts should be fine on this board.



-Kira

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by TiredX2

I generally insist that DS lies on his side next to me close, because a lot of times he will try to roll on his back and scoot away with the nipple still clamped firmly!

And this is the reason I think our nipples should be made of rubber. :LOL

Our nighttime nursing sessions turned into wrestling matches. He would latch on, then push my body away with his hands while pulling his head waaaaaaaay back. I'd explain to him that it hurt and pull him closer and he'd continue pushing away. Not so fun.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by ~Kira~

I think that child-led night weaning topics/posts should be fine on this board.

I disagree. And here's why: I truly don't believe that night-weaning is "weaning" at all. I guess it can be if a mother decides to make those the first nursings she drops on the way to her goal of mother-led weaning. For many of us who practice child-led weaning, though, we place limits on night-time nursing (respectful limits, of course - only those a child is developmentally ready for) out of necessity in the same manner that some mothers who practice child-led weaning do during the day. The only difference is that it's dark outside.

Maybe it's one of those "you have to have been there" things. Your ds stopped nursing at night at 10 months. I'm glad it worked out that way for you. When you have an older child who is waking incredibly frequently at night to nurse for a few seconds out of habit and you're at your wit's end from exhaustion and you want to figure out how to help that situation without encouraging weaning, child-led weaning mamas are more likely the mamas you want advice from.

I can tell you from experience that this idea that placing limits at night wrecks child-led weaning is bunk. It just is. And continuing to insist that it does serves no end except to alienate people who are, in actuality, on the same path to respect their child's needs and allow their children to wean on their own schedule. It's misguided and divisive.

[~Kira~]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

I disagree.

That's cool...I don't have the heart to get into it. We just finished helping my parents move today so I'm just exhausted!

I don't believe that setting boundaries / limits for older babies / children when it comes to night-time nursing, or anytime nursing for that matter, is weaning. That's just my take on it. I kind of think of weaning as being done with the intention to totally end nursing in short order. Kinda....Shoot, I'm not making any sense, I should really just delete this and try again tomorrow..

Ah what the heck...

Okay, edited to add:

In my first post, I was meaning mother-led night weaning as in mom having the goal not wanting to nurse at night, at all, ever, period, regardless of if baby/toddler was ready for that yet. I don't suspect that happens very often at all (if ever) among this crowd, but being a member of some more mainstream boards where that is common-place, I guess I can't get that definition out of my head, kwim?

Hope that clears up what I obviously garbled before.

If not, I'll try again when I'm not all sticky, sweaty, and bushed! :LOL






-Kira

[quaz]

"If there is such a great need for a child to nurse at night, a mother learns to sleep through it, or deal with loss of sleep and nap during the day when the child naps, or seek help if possible from other people, or whatever."


Problem is, some moms don't learn to sleep through it, some moms have other toddlers/kids that refuse to nap and thus the mom can't nap, and some moms don't have the support system. In my case I have an almost 3 year old who doesn't nap, and noone to help out, a 17m old who has never slept a night in her life, and likes to stay attached to me... my back has finally given up by the position I have to sleep in to nurse.


I really think DragonFly has a good take on it. When most people say night-weaning they aren't talking about night-weaning. They are talking about a relative small period of time where the mom is putting a few boundaries in place. But, with all the shades of gray, I think this has been an interesting thread to read... on both sides of the discussion.

Tammy

[ShabbyChic]

Forgive me if I sound ignorant, but if the child wakes to nurse, then doesn't he need it? I am reading coments saying that when the child was emotionally/physically ready to not nurse at night then he was "pushed" in that direction. How does one know when their child is ready. Really, I just figured because DS wakes at night to nurse then he "needs" it. He is 17 months now. I figure if he "needs" to nurse at 3 in the night, well then that is what he needs.

My 4 year old "has to tell you something" at 3AM usually. Well, I guess she "needs" to. So, I listen and then we go back to sleep. I thought that is what I signed up for. If I was thirsty in the night and for whatever reason needed my DH to get me water, I would be rip roaring pissed if he refused to help me.

So, I guess I believe that any discussion of weaning; night or mother-prodded, or whatever, other than child-led doesn't belong here.

Why subscribe to a forum that you disagree with? Child-Led. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Anything other than that belongs elsewhere.

[Katiemare]

why the milkier-than-thou attitude?

Originally Posted by ShabbyChic

Anything other than that belongs elsewhere.

The whole board can't agree on where the fine-line between CLW and RESPECTFUL, gentle parent-led wning is located. It won't happen. May i suggest that if you are so adamant that no mom ever set limits when the sun goes down, that you not read threads with "night-weaning" in the title?

It seemed that before SC's post, most of us had come to an agreement that those of us who Do set nighttime limits are gently doing so out of necessity for mom, when baby is physically and emotionally ready.

Also, a child may not be "waking to nurse." He may have woken up because of a noise in the house or just as part of the normal toddler-obics in his sleep. And since the boob is right there. . . why not? That's how it is once your child is ready to drop some feedings. It's out of habit, not out of necessity.

It isn't right to just try to shut down a conversation because it isn't perfectly tailored to your beliefs. We aren't putting bitter tasting stuff on our nipples. We aren't telling our kids that they are too old to nurse. Often there is no significant decrease in the amount of milk the child gets in a 24-hour cycle because they take in fewer, longer nursing sessions and it all evens out.

I have yet to start a nightweaning thread on this board, and don't ever plan on it. But, if someone asks in this forum I will answer with my experience. Remember that if the poster comes to CLW to post about it, she obviously wants a very lactivist approach to the idea. So save your judgements.

[mom2threenurslings]

I have to agree with the concept of ShabbyChic's post - to me, if a nursling wakes at night and asks (in some way, shape or form) to nurse, then it would seem to be a need to nurse, and a mother denying that nursing session (or those nursing sessions) would be actively cutting out a nursing session/sessions, which to me doesn't go with the concept of Child-Led Weaning. The mother would be leading the way.

However, if the mother believes that the night-nursing child is doing so out of habit rather than need and offers an alternative to the child when the child asks to nurse and the child happily accepts the alternative without voicing again the need to nurse (and mother nurses if the child indicates the need to nurse at the time), then that could be within reason for CLW. If the mother speaks with the child about the need to stop night nursing, the intent to stop night nursing, that nursing is going to be a daytime thing only, etc. - then the mother is leading the way and not allowing the child to.

To me, cutting down on frequency of nursing is a form of weaning. Cutting out hours of the day in which the child is allowed to nurse is a form of weaning (whether it's day or night). Actively getting a child to stop nursing during specific times of day is weaning. Weaning isn't an all - or -nothing thing - partial weaning is still weaning.

I'm not saying that limit-setting within reason is a bad thing - but that some limit-setting IS a form of weaning. If the child does need to nurse and the mom refuses and the need isn't met, to me, it's a form of weaning.

I do set limits on nursing - I won't nurse my children while I'm driving (but I will pull over to nurse an infant), while I'm cooking (but I will take a break from cooking if someone needs to nurse), while I'm going to the bathroom (unless it can't be avoided - I'll nurse an infant while I pee, but not my 5 year old as he can wait! ) - but I don't refuse to nurse if the child needs to. I may ask the child (who can understand) to wait a few minutes, but I'll always fill the need.

Yes, some nightweaning threads are appropriate in the CLWing forums - for me those would include (but not be limited to) posts looking for nightnursing support and ways to avoid nightweaning, posts looking for information on the alternatives to nightweaning, posts looking for suggestions as to how to get through the night/day when night nursing becomes too difficult and demanding, etc. It's the help me to nightwean and support me in nightweaning and how do I nightwean posts that I think belong in one of the other breastfeeding forums.

[ShabbyChic]

That is quite the nastiest post I have ever read here. I was not at all making a judgement. I was just stating how I see it. Obviously, I touched a really sore spot for you, and for that I am sorry it left you so hot headed. I certainly was not trying to shut down a conversation. I re-read my post and I am certainly aware when I sound judgemental, and this I believe is not one of those times. Maybe, if you think I was judging, you should re-read your post, because clearly you judged me.

Originally Posted by Katiemare

The whole board can't agree on where the fine-line between CLW and RESPECTFUL, gentle parent-led wning is located. It won't happen. May i suggest that if you are so adamant that no mom ever set limits when the sun goes down, that you not read threads with "night-weaning" in the title?

It seemed that before SC's post, most of us had come to an agreement that those of us who Do set nighttime limits are gently doing so out of necessity for mom, when baby is physically and emotionally ready.

Also, a child may not be "waking to nurse." He may have woken up because of a noise in the house or just as part of the normal toddler-obics in his sleep. And since the boob is right there. . . why not? That's how it is once your child is ready to drop some feedings. It's out of habit, not out of necessity.

It isn't right to just try to shut down a conversation because it isn't perfectly tailored to your beliefs. We aren't putting bitter tasting stuff on our nipples. We aren't telling our kids that they are too old to nurse. Often there is no significant decrease in the amount of milk the child gets in a 24-hour cycle because they take in fewer, longer nursing sessions and it all evens out.

I have yet to start a nightweaning thread on this board, and don't ever plan on it. But, if someone asks in this forum I will answer with my experience. Remember that if the poster comes to CLW to post about it, she obviously wants a very lactivist approach to the idea. So save your judgements.