Calling all Magickal Christians/ Christian Pagan blends

[sha_lyn]

I've recently become interested in Blends of Christianity and Pagan beliefs. I was wondering what some of the members here have done in their lives.
I was raised Fundemetal Baptist but I've never fit in. For most of my life I've been attracted to magick, believed in spirit guides, aliens (not alien invasions, just that life exist else where). Since "my" religion taught me that these things are wrong (and even that dinosaurs weren't real, fossils were planted here by the devil) I tried for 34 yrs to ignore my Pagan side. However my very religious grandparents did use "Magick" they just didn't call it that. My grandfather could get ride of warts, douse (spelling) for water etc.Then in Feb of this yr I met a another homeschool family that we have a lot in common with except that they are Pagan. I joined her Pagan HS group and have since really become interested in Religious blends of Pagan and Christian beliefs.

Right now if I had to use a "title" to explain my beliefs it would be
Gnostic Magickal Christian. I see the Holy trinity as The Father/God, Mother/Goddess Sophia and Son/Christ.

As on the Spell/Prayer thread, I agree with others that Spell work is a more active form of Prayer. I'm reading Wicca for the solitary Practicitioner right now and I love it. I can't belief how this book is speaking to me. I also love Sylvia Browne's books.

I'm beginning to realize that the conflicts between the 2 that I expected to find really are not there.
So am I the only one here who is following this very ecletic path?

[myrrhmaid]

I'm right here with ya, Sistah!

Hi sha-lyn, WOW! I thought I was the only one! I had never heard anyone else say that they were raised to believe that dinosaurs were put here by 'the devil' to deceive us. This concept was so preposterous to me as a child-like-yeah, right...And then we had the field trip to the LaBrea tar pits in L.A. and seen all the fossils...:
It's hard for me to pin point or exactly say what I am as far as saying I'm pagan or christian because I really don't want to align myself with some of the things that are so prominent with these labels. I have been studying the Goddess culture for over 10 years now which includes yoga, meditation, astral travel, shamanic healing, and dance. I also do psychic healing, chakra alignment, and laying on of hands healing and psychic diagnosis. I do dream work and believe that dreams are the language of the soul. I have studied Jungian philosophy/psychology which is heavy into archetypes and embracing the dark side and the anima/animus. I am fascinated by crop circles, ley lines, sacred geometry, and places like Stonehenge, Easter Island and such. I have worked with ascended Masters and received great healing & understanding from Jesus, Babji & Madaji, Arch-Angel Michael-who some say is also Jesus, Arch-Angel Gabriel, Mother Mary, Buddha-etc. I love channeled writing Like Ramtha, Ken Carey-Return of the Bird Tribes, A course in miracles and wisdom from great teachers like Sylvia Browne, Edgar Casey, Shirley Maclaine etc. I am attuned with the Native American traditions & rituals for cleansing & purifying along with many of their ideals around who we are in our earthwalk. I believe that our thoughts are the beginning of manifesting and have so much power. I have also had great healing from being raised/abused by the fundamental christian mindset by participating in the United Methodist Church, where I was an active member for years as the pres. of United Methodist women and spiritual director for the district. So if you can tell me who I am from all this then I then will have an idea! I feel like a Heintz 57! I also love Zen & Buddism. I was opened greatly psychically & spiritually from the home waterbirth of my Son almost 13 years ago. This experience awakened what I call my higher self, or my wise one-the one who doesn't fail to find her truth-like an arrow that doesn't miss the mark.
What you are seeking is causing you to seek. Nice to see you here!

[DaryLLL]

Thank god/dess! Where have you 2 been? I am so there! I keep trying to get things going here along these lines and get very little response.

I was also damaged by a fundie upbringing, topped off by my mom saying she only dragged me and my sister (for 13 yrs) to church for my grandmother's sake, as she was actually atheist.

After turning 17, I fully rejected xianity.

Went on to study: Hinduism, Buddhism, New Age stuff (channeling, crystal energy, meditation, a workshop called Actualizations), finally pagaism. This year (and I am 47) finally got the strength to start reading the xian bible, and have found so much pleasure in reading it for myself, deconstructing it, along with books such as the Jesus Mysteries (Freke and Gandy), which is about gnosticism. Which then leads me to study Plato, Pythagorous (sp), Osiris/Dionysus, Ba'al, Asherah, El, etc.

Reading Pauls' letters (and finding out which ones are fakes!), is so interesting, from a psychological viewpoint as well as cultural. I now think, he invented xianity as we see it today (Christ in you), whereas Jesus (if, and a big if, he even existed) was a Jewish messiah, not a saviour of mankind per se.

This fall, I have started attending a UU church (we are in NE, where UU go it's start). I hate to even say i am going to church, but it is not dogmatic. Very democratic and open minded, like me!

Thanks so much for sharing your viewpoints.

[waldohood]

I like this thread! I was Catholic for a huge chunk of my life (31 years). But I had serious issue with the male name given to God/dess and to the exclusivity of the priesthood. Long story short, I began to investigate Paganism (thanks to all the women who boldly put it out on this thread thay they were "Pagan Mommies"!! I always felt that the RC church was too magical, but as I got a new appreciation for Magick on the Pagan path, I also got a new appreciation for the Mystical rite in the RC church. I still do not agree with the fact that the Pope is as conservative as he is, or that priests (STILL!) are only male, the solely male view of God etc etc etc. But I am starting to apreciate how other things are fitting together. I have been reading "Anatomy of the Soul" which ties together Catholicism, as well as Eastern Faiths, to name a few, and I really like it. I still am figuring out what I believe about Goddess/ Sophia, but I am in a better place than I have been in for a long time. So let's keep these discussions going! And thanks for starting this thread!

[sha_lyn]

you are so welcome. I was almost afraid to start this thread. When I've mentioned it online or IRL before both sides (Pagan and Christian) object to combining the 2. I though however that here I might find others who share a similar path.


I don't think being raised Christian damaged me but I do think it gave me a very narrow view of the world and of people. However as an adult attending a Fundemental Church I felt like I was being controlled like a child.

[StarMama]

Wow! Ok this thread is totally amazing to me!! I've been raised Christian, but don't attend church now... Ever since I learned about paganism I have felt drawn to it, I love magical things, I believe God is both man and woman (not exactly sure *how* that works, but I have heard something about at one point the bible did refer to God in a he/she kind of way), I love the idea of altars, and we're considering attending a UU church...

But I can not get the idea out of my head that paganism and christianity are totally opposite, and that I can't do one with the other. Like "no graven images" and alters... Or "thou shall have no other gods before me" and all the different gods and goddesses that people worship.

Even emotionally to me they feel so different. Christianity is all about feeling guilty and bad (yes see why I left church?). I KNOW that isn't the feeling others have towards God, but as of now I'm just paralized by fear. I know that once *I* didn't feel that way either... And Paganism seems so loving, so beautiful, so light-and-love that it just seems too good to be true. I just wish Christianity felt that way to me again. I know I need a church that does more than preach 'hellfire and brimstone', which is where I think I got this lovely fear complex from.

Could anyone who has blended Christianity and Paganism please explain to me how you got over the opposition of the two? I know that wasn't a problem for you, sha_lyn... I'm jealous! I would so LOVE to be involved in paganism, but it still just seems too opposed to me. So help me learn how you blended it together!

[waldohood]

I am not sure if this is right or not, but I tend to pick and choose from the two (or more, if you add in the Eastern Spirituality). There really is a lot of similiarity-- but you are right-- that talk of "original sin" is a real downer and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I am new to this, too, so I am learning as I go. But I read in one of my Pagan books that all of the gods and goddesses are really just faces of the the God/Goddess Divinity. I like that, and it also helps me to see saints, etc in a potentailly different way-- not that they are God/ Goddess... it is hard to explain. I am not sure how clear I am being. My husband believes that there is one mountain, but many paths to get to the top. The way I see it, or the way I think/ want to see it-- is that if there is a Divine, S/He is too big for any of us to comprehend-- we all just see faces or angles that most fit us, speak to us, apply to us, etc. Some paths up that mountain require different beliefs or approaches, and none are totally right-- but blending all of them is probably the most accurate picture of the Divine that we have. All this said, and there is still a part of me that questions if God/ ess even exists. But if there is a mountain, I am trying, and that has to count for something.

[sha_lyn]

The first guidence I had toward my "path" was a UU minister friend who is a ecletic/Celtic witch. She suggest that I read up on Gnostic Christianity.

Here are a couple of Gnositc sites, and a site that has portions of or full text of religious text that are not in the bible

http://www.gnosis.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/thyone/gps.html

http://reluctant-messenger.com/lost_forgotten_books.htm


I have always felt that the bible was incomplete and mistranslated in many ways. As I read about what is said in other text I realized how much more sense the Bible actually made.

There has been a fairly successful attempt to fill in the missing time in Jesus' life with the time that other religious text were written. It appears that Jesus visited Asia durign the time not accounted for i nthe Bible. Also after the resurection he said he was goign to teach his other flock (paraphrasing here). This is when I believe he visited the "new" world, thus we have the Book of Mormon.

There is magick in the Bible, just look at any miricle. Even if we look at churches today there is what would be considered Magick. Magick is not turing people into toads. It is ritual Prayer and other Rituals designed to bring one closer to the Divine. Prayer, lightign of candles, communion etc , the Rosary Prayer etc could all be considered spells or magick.

The way I look at it all religions seem to have their one "head" God, whether they call him God, Lord, the Unnamed one, The Horned God etc. Most religions also have a Goddess aspect, but in the Christian Churches the Holy Spirit is not referred to as She, but carries the motherly qualities of God. Most religions have lesser gods, even the Christian Churches has lesser devine beings they are just called Angels instead of gods.

My altar is very ecletic with aspects from Christianity, Wicca and Zen Buddism. I don't really see a conflict because I am reflecting my spiritual needs.


PS

just saw waldohood's post You really makes a lot of sense and said what I've been trying to say much better than I could

I want to post more but need to run. I'll ramble on more tomorrow.

[StarMama]

Thank you for the links and explinations! I will read the sites soon! Anything to help me figure out what I'm doing religiously is great! I suppose I really should go to at least one UU service.... See what it holds for me..

[sha_lyn]

I have a good friend that teaches Sunday School at the nearest UU church, but it is 45 minutes away from my house. I really need to start going but I hate the thought of driving that far.
The UU minister I know doesn't have a church. She studied to be a UU minister so she could perform pagan weddings, (known as Handfastings), legally

There is also strong evidence that much of the female influence in the Bible was obmitted to please King James when the Bible was translated. There is a very strong link showing that Mary Magdiline was the unnamed deciple mentioned in the Bible and the author of some books of the New Testiment.
This info is on one of the links I gave earlier. I think it was the reluctant messanger but I can't remember now.
Some of the Gnostic text seem to also explain who the other early people were in the Bible that are barely mentioned. The ones who married Adam and Eve's children.

Pick up a copy of Wicca A Guide for the Solitary Practictioner. It gives a very general over view of Wicca and leaves it to the reader to fill in the blanks as they need to (as to what Deity they believe in).

One thing too I want to point out. I look at the Wicca Sun God/ Moon Goddess not as they are worshiping the Sun and the moon, but that they use the Sun and moon to Represent the God and Goddess. I think many Wicca would agree. This would be like a Christian looking at a Picture of Christ, a Cross or Crucifix as their visual reprensation of God or Jesus.

I have an interesting side story that relates to the last paragraph. A Catholic Friend was out of the Church for several years and then attended mass at a local church. She asked why there weren't the elaborate Altars and Statues that she remembered from her childhood. She was told it was because they were tryign to get away fro mthat because too many people were taught or at least thought that they were actually praying to the statue and not to the Saint it represented. She said had always thought she was praying to the statue too.

[barbara]

Greetings Ladies, I'm glad to see this topic being discussed here. My daughter (Marsupialmama) started a similar one not long ago to see what people here believed and if there was tolerance.

I don't really see a conflict with Christianity and paganism. Look at the Catholic and orthodox churches. Much of Christian holidays have pagan roots. I simply honor and respect the earth and heavens. I find it very compatible with my very sincere Christian beliefs. I worship God and honor the earth. I guess many at our church would disagree with me. I think that Christianity in it's purest form is not uncompatable with most cultural pratices. I fear that too often what passes for Christianity is more cultural than it is spiritual. I love the tolerant and loving spirit that both paganism and christianity have at their roots.

I completely agree that spells and prayers are very much the same thing. I think that most of the prayers that sincere Christians speak, do effect the spiritual world and often speak things into being. I believe in the prophetic and so walk a different path than the majority of Christians in the U.S. but I don't really understand the deamonization of other religions that I see in the Church in general.

I am happy to spiritual tolerance among you women.

Namaste,
b

[myrrhmaid]

This is so great, to have us all here together in peace!
Lisa-Lynn as far as the 'graven images' my understanding is that it is a rigid interpretation of scripture. While truth may be meaningfully expressed through concept, truth itself is not a concept; the truth is a living spirit. We bow down & worship a graven image any time we allow our behavior to be controlled by the extent of our conceptual understanding, rather than by the living spirit of God/dess within. The truth that we know is the truth that we are actually experiencing. To share that living truth through concepts and linguistic descriptions is fine, but to let them block a current perception of spirit is to worship false gods.
As far as God being a he/she sort of thing I have heard this too. when we are in spirit we are androgenous, and to become flesh, we polarize into opposites-male/female. Some say this is the element that creates soul mates-our search for our other half that we embody in the spirit. We may also see this reflected in the cloaking of the story of Adam & Eve, where Eve is taken from the body of Adam-this would be a conceptualization of a spiritual truth that we should not create a graven image (still life-snap shot, static photo) of through the story but see 'the spirit' within the message-therefore I feel in the love of my knowledge that we are male/female in spirit and polarize as we become flesh. Taken from one body and made into two separate beings.
To comprehend truth in the absence of love is as impossible as comprehendiong a phone message without electricity. The telephone messages rides on the current of electricity just as the truth rides on the current of love.
didyouknowthefirstbiblewaswrittenjustlikethiswithn obreaksinbeweenthewordscanyouimaginehowdifficultit wastotrytosortitalloutandmakesenseofallthewordsput ogetherlikethatalsothefirstcanonswerewritteningree kandarabicimnotsureaboutarabicbutiknowthegreeklang uagehasmoreletterssinthealphabetthanwedothereforei thinkitisstretchingittosaywehaveaninterpretationin englishthatcanbetakenliterally:
What I said was- did you know the first bible was written just like this with no breaks inbeween the words? Can you imagine how difficult it was to sort it all out and make sense of all the words put together like that? The first canons of the Bible were written in Greek and Arabic. I'm not sure about Arabic but I know the Greek language has more letters in the alphabet than we do therefore I think its stretching it to say we have an interpretation in English that can be taken literally.
I know that each of the letters in the Greek alphabet also stands for something significant such as the first letter of their alphabet is Alpha-which means the beginning and the last letter is Omega-which means the end. I think there is much more meaning to their language than just our A is AAAAhhh sound. But don't be discouraged because this doesn't mean we can never get any understanding from the Bible. Just as in the 'graven images' we have to guard against taking the clothed concepts as the truth and see the spirit that is within the garment. In Christianity & the Bible this is what is meant by the living word. And this is why we need to feel it in us as love & not a captured photo concept or notion. Truth is alive in us as love!
I have seen a Bible that has 4 different interpretations side by side & it is very interesting to see the jist of all the concepts & how they expand & grow as they are explored from the King James version to the more modern languages.
It is interesting to reflect on just who & how they were trying to control people's thinking & behavior by omitting whole canons that were written to be included in the Bible.

[AutumnWind]

I don't have it figured out as well as you all do, but I'm sssoooo grateful to read this thread!!! I feel less "weird". I was raised Catholic, and enjoyed the RC church until I became an adult. I chose a very scientific major in college, and did a lot of research & reading about evolution, of course, which the RC church (and many other Christian churches..) rejects. I also embraced feminist writings, poetry & voices, which made me drift further away from my patriarchal religion. I do really miss the feeling of faith I had as a child & teenager in Catholicism.

We had our baby baptised Catholic, but we don't attend church at all except holidays with our mothers, who are both Catholic.

I've said before in this forum that I feel like I have a Druid spirit. I'm so affected by the seasons, and trees & wildflowers especially. I love to study faeries, especially flower faeries - but not as something I "believe" in --- more as a way to celebrate the "spirit" of nature in an artistic way. The weather also affects my mood - I even enjoy rainy days. I have romantic feelings about all types of days - sunny, cloudy, rainy, snowy, and I'm very attuned to the cycles & rythyms, even of 24 hours: the morning, afternoon, evening, twighlight, and darkness. I feel a poetic sort of feeling about it that I would describe as spiritual. I took out one book on Wicca, written by Michele Morgan, but I didn't like all the detailed rituals & dieties. So, I think I need something simpler. Don't know what. But I plan to eventually connect with the UU church here in my city. That might be a good fit. I hesitate, cause I know my dh won't go. So, I need someone else to go with, like a friend or relative. I'd like to bring my ds to the UU services. But if I did that, I think dh would freak. He's not a good CAtholic, but he feels guilty about it, where I don't.

[FireBrand]

Christian Goddess

I'm new here and knew I would find like minded people and just this kind of discussion happening here.
I first discovered Mothering mag. a long time ago, about the time I was having my last baby, he's 7 now. I remember feeling like I had found something beautiful, nurturing, empowering, honoring the female, in the words I read and world opening to me, while reading and crying (how could they keep this information from us and our daughters for generations?) and reading a pile of old issues given to me by a friend who now has 8 children, one of my beautiful Goddess friends. Since then we had a home birth, I found more healing, CranioSacral Therapy, thru another Goddess friend, seeing auras, purple light, a white light opening on my forehead, (3rd eye chakra), and out the top of my head, massage therapy, essential oils, herbs, and my whole life has opened up to a whole new reality.

The first thing I heard driving into the sunset after my first healing Experience was that all these different 'religions',or spiritual paths lead to the same place, Love, Home, self, Goddess, God, One with the Divine, Connected to Source.... and they all teach the same way to get there, basically, "love your neighbor as yourself" be willing to "risk being the fool for love" Oriah Mountain, Love is the answer. "Love is all ya need," JL "Perfect Love casteth out all fear" Love, God, with all your heart, Spirit, mind, and strength ......

Love is the only way to healing, Fear keeps us blind and hate in bondage. Fear of who we really are, and what, how powerful we are. Fear of change, fear of rejection, of losing all that we know to be our reality, comfort, and our ego.

Now, I see how we are so very connected, like a energetic web (Indira), and how much we all have in common, how Christian paganism is and how pagan Christianity is, (I am another you, you are me)
how similar Kundalini is to Baptism of Fire, auras are to being encircled by fire or flames from the Scriptures.

I look forward to reading more and learning more about how we are more the same rather than very different, how we are all connected...

Love and light,

[DebraBaker]

I just want to make a comment about Christian churches guilting people.

I'm in a church but barely. By that I mean I can see myself outside a church. Our church is the best one I've experienced but there is still that element.

In reality, Jesus died on the cross to relieve us of any guilt or sin.

That means we don't need to guilt.

The guilt (or is it the feeling of guilt and inadaquicy) seperates us from G-d....it *keeps* us from our potential as people (people being created in the image and likeness of G-d)

I'm not a pagan but I do know there are things we can't explain with science (or even things we don't understand but science is starting to acknowledge like auras)

In the past I was fearful of even *thinking* about these things because churches taught that that thought was planted in my head by Satan. (sometimes just disagreeing with the leadership over reasonable issues was being influenced by the Devil, ha!!)

Now, I know that being able to travel down roads of thought is a gift from G-d. A gift denied me (and millions of others) by controlling churches.

I am a Christian with a Jewish background. I love G-d with all my heart but I also believe there is an amazing level of freedom "out there" that is barely being tapped. One thing about this is when people are able to freethink they come up with innovations and ideas that are ultimately beneficial to this universe.

There is much we don't understand. Things unexplained shouldn't be feared. *Because* of the finished work Jesus we don't need to guilt.

But then again guiltless people are hard to control.

Debra Baker

[Susana]

Hi all Interesting discussion here!

I just wanted to mention a book I read that I think you all might be interested in. I read it when I was just beginnning to look at Paganism for myself and being raised Catholic, I thought the title seemed "safe" enough!
It's called "Embracing Jesus and the Goddess-A Radical Call for Spiritual Sanity" and it was written by Carl McColman. I found the book to be very easy to read and interesting. Even the check out guy at the bookstore said he thought it was an interesting title.
Check it out

[barbara]

DB, I agree that guilt is too often used to control. I think that guilt, like fear, does not come from love and hence not from our Creator. We too often forget to walk in the freedom that Jesus provides. When He left He sent the Comfortor to dwell within us, and we can take comfort and peace that this indwelling spirit will not steer us away from truth and Himself!

Namaste,
b

[leafylady]

Myrrhmaid wrote

We bow down & worship a graven image any time we allow our behavior to be controlled by the extent of our conceptual understanding, rather than by the living spirit of God/dess within. The truth that we know is the truth that we are actually experiencing. To share that living truth through concepts and linguistic descriptions is fine, but to let them block a current perception of spirit is to worship false gods.

I've always dismissed the graven image thing because I never understood it. You've provided the wisest and really the only explanation I've ever heard. Thank you

I am enjoying all of the posts on this thread by the way. You all amaze me with your spiritual insights and grace.

[DaryLLL]

There is so much that I could comment on here. I am just so glad to meet open minded people who aren't strict types of pagans, nor guilt ridden fundie xians.

Can I recommend _The Jesus Mysteries_ again? And _Jesus and the Lost Goddess_, it's followup?

The Jesus Mysteries clearly and simply, yet in detail, explains how Christianity has it's roots in Judaism, as everyone knows, but also in the mystery religions of the ancient world, directly out of such gods as Osiris/Dionysus, and Mithra, and Attis. They were all dying and resurrecting god/men, whose death and rebirth symbolizes the potential for all of us to "resurrect" as well (this does not necc mean resurrect after we die, but also to be reborn as a more spiritual being here and now, instead of being just involved with material stuff--money, power and the like). Jesus was not a god--separate and above us, but actually an "everyman/woman." He is one of those paths to god.

Later interpretations of the Bible, in medieval times (yes, the Dark Ages were so dark!), imagined up the idea of the trinity and original sin, which were not at all clearly stated either in the letters of Paul, or the 4 gospels. I don't see the story of Adam and Eve as a proof of original sin, the Jews don't either! I see it as the idea of duality in creation. The return to unity with god is represented by the other tree in the garden, the tree of life, which is also the tree of love, the "tree" Jesus was hung upon as a symbol for us all. (the NT calls it a cross, a tree and a gibbet, randomly.)

( I rec actually reading the bible, at least the NT, and read Paul first! his were the original writings on this subject. When we don't read the bible, but just take bits and pieces as they are spoon fed and interpreted from the pulpit, we are prevented from thinking for ourselves, and give over our own powers of perception and relationship to god to another--your pastor/priest, your denomination.)

Another book I got on sale at B&N, called _The Mythmaker-- Paul and the Invention of Christianity_, by Macoby, who is a contemporary Jewish scholar, has an intersting theory. He sees a contradiction between the Jesus (whom he does see as an historical figure) of Jerusalem, and seen in the flesh by the apostles as the Jewish Messiah; and the Jesus of Paul, seen only in a vision and as an inner spirit, "Christ in you." The Messiah was a revolutionary political leader (who would have been seen as a huge challenge to the Roman rulers of the day, in the early years of the Roman Empire). As I understand it, the Messiah is believed to be first a leader of the Jews out of oppression, who would set them up as a nation, then over time, would rule all the world in a sort of utopia on earth, all worshipping the one true God. (the idea that he was resurrected does not prove he is the Son of God [or part of God in a trinity] any more than we all are, but still a man, resurrected by the power of God who can do anything.)

Paul knew nothing about Pontius Pilate, or a virgin birth. Nor did he know anything about Jesus' life on earth. He was only concerned with the cross and the resurrection. The gnostic idea is that the gospels (and not just the 4 canonical ones, but all the Nag Hammadi and Dead Sea ones) were written as myths to just expound on the idea of Jesus and his symbolic meaning for our inner lives. They are not historical records! If you take them as symbols, you will find it doens't matter that they contradict each other, and even contradict themselves.

Obviously, Paul's idea of Jesus Christ was a more inner one of direct connection to god. His way of percieving it was so different from the Jew's idea of Christ, that he (Paul) was rejected by the Jews. (Altho a lot of the conflict between Paul and the "Jews" was put in to take away emphasis from the intense pressure from the Roman govt and it's political conflict with the Messiah movement. )The book of Acts was written as a sort of gloss, trying to bring the Paul idea into alignment with the "Jerusalem Church," but it is pretty obvious there was no real agreement. And then add in the Roman's desire to rule the people and the political threat of the Messiah movement, the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 CE, etc. It was a tempestuous time. (I recently found out the Coloseum was built with funds from the sack of Jerusalem! wow!)

---And here we are trying to apply the struggle of those people and their gods to the present time.---

Paul was from Tarsus, and according to Macoby, was no way a Pharisee. He might have said this, but Macoby thinks Paul said a lot of things to get along. Paul himself admits to being a jew to jews, a gentile to the gentiles, strong to the strong, weak to the weak. Tarsus was a center for the worship of Attis, and Paul was probably a convert to Judasim from this religion. Hence, his interest in the resurrecting god/man. But, as Jews may well be insulted about, Paul took their sacred writings and made them over in the image of a new religion, using them to "prove" Jesus' divinity.

I've got more, but will stop now! Next?

[DaryLLL]

What? did I kill this thread?

Well, I will just ramble on then, by myself.

Paganism is often seen as rustic witchcraft, or the pantheon of the gods on Mt Olympus. It is both, and there is a third: the Mystery religions of the ancient Meditarranean civilizations of Egypt and Greece.

This religious movement began in around 600 CE, after Greece had conquered Egypt (Alexander the Great), and the 2 cultures' knowledge came together in Alexandria, Egypt.

The dying godman of the ancient mystery religions: Attis, Mithra, and Osiris/Dionysus, Adonis, Bacchus and Orpheus, have many qualities in common with the dying godman of the early Christians--

Osiris/Dionysus is god made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."
His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin
He is born on the winter solstice in a cave or cowshed before 3 shepherds
His birth is announced by a star
He is honored with gold, frankinsense and myrrh (the 3 Magi were Persian astronomers)
He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rite of baptism
He miraculously turns water into wine at a wedding
He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm fronds in celebration
He dies at the vernal equinox as a sacrifice for the sins of the world
He was hung on a tree or cross
He descends into hell, rises on the 3rd day, to ascend to heaven
His followers await his return as a judge during the last days
His followers celebrate the eucharist ("blessing" in Greek) with a ritual meal of wine (blood) and bread (body of god) (Dionysus was the god of wine, Osiris was assoc with crop fertility and grain)
His initiates (2000 at a time) would bath in the sea with pigs, which would absorb the sins of the people, then be cast over a cliff
Early sages such as Pythagorus, were believed to have the power to still the surface of the waters, raise the dead and heal the sick

The institutionalized early Christian church exterminated, supressed, annihilated the wisdom and knowledge of the ancient Greeks. Books were burnt. Practitioners were too. In the Renaissance, much of this ancient wisdom (sophia) and knowledge (gnosis), was painstakingly rediscovered. New researchers of this scientific knowledge then had their own problems with the church.

We are still uncovering information about this culture. The books found in Nag Hammadi (1945)included gnostic christian books as well as books of Greek philosophy. One of the gnostic books has an ankh on the cover.

Paganism inspired the building of the pyramids and the Parthenon, the plays of Euripides and Sophocles, the sophisticated philosophy of Socrates and Plato. (These "primitives" speculated humans had evolved from animals, knew the earth was a sphere with fire at the center that spun on an axis, and revolved around the sun. Eratosthenes had estimated it's circumference to within one degree! Their mathematics was highly advanced. )

These "primitives," who had their learning wiped out by the early Literalist Christians, (who said the only knowledge that was legitimate was contained in the canonical bible), invented democracy, rational philosophy, public libraries, theater with it's comedy and drama, and the Olympic Games.

Early Christian fathers of the church, claimed the devil had mimicked the events of Jesus' life, in advance, with the life and symbols and miracles of the pagan O/D. They claimed they had the handle on the real, in the flesh son of God, and burnt the books of the pagans and gnostics who saw otherwise.

For me, it is not important to believe in the stories in the Bible as literal historical truth. In it are contained themes, archetypes and psychological truths about the soul of people, and how we try to make sense of the world. One quote I read, said, if you try to take the words of the bible literally, it is like being handed a menu at a restaurant, and instead of ordering the food, just eating the menu!

What am I? I am not a Christian, not a pagan, not a Jew. The Platonists called themselves cosmopolitans--citizens of the cosmos. The gnostics called themselves friends of God. Perhaps I am a spelunker of the soul.