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They’re just bee’s wax crayons, for cripes sake - Page 2

post #21 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom
I never heard about it, either. Not in any Waldorf playgroup I was in. (My oldest is 16 and we did W playgroup in RI when he was 3, so for years and years saw all color crayons). I read it on WC list about 2 yrs ago. It was also brought up by a WC person on another board i was on not long ago.
Also, this is the first time I've ever heard of Black crayons having some connection to Ahriman. I've heard of many things that are supposedly connected to Ahriman, technology, etc. but not crayons. I suppose it has to do with the "darkness" vs the "light" which would be connected to Lucifer.

Pete
post #22 of 48
There are several places one can get Waldorf Teacher training. I wonder if this is coming from one particular school of training so it might be more localized.
post #23 of 48

The Vibrational Frequency of Black

Sorry if someone already said this:

I was taught in teacher training that each color had a different vibrational frequency which attributed themselves to different archangels and each archangel had a note (that, of course, corresponded to his/her color). So,

Color---Archangel---Note on the C scale (this was how I taught the recorder)

Black was described as a lack of a vibrational frequency and so did not lend itself to the positive incarnation of the child. That is why children in the school where I worked were not permitted to wear black and black crayons and paint were non-existent.
post #24 of 48
Thanks, beansavi. I've seen the black crayon issue come up many times, but never heard this before.

There is some black crayon use in the pictures my children brought home from school in kindergarten, so it sounds like some teachers are more doctrinaire about this than others. Now that my children are older, they've had many lessons in art where *only* black and white are used. Colors of course do each have unique qualities which can evoke very different feelings or reponses, as artists are very much aware, and they choose colors deliberately to create very different effects, much like a musician can achieve very different emotional effects with different chords or harmonies.

A third grade teacher was concerned about some children who were wearing a lot of black or gray clothing, and the reason she gave was that she thought it may indicate the children were drawn to try to be older than their age, a "pushing themselves to grow up too fast" kind of thing. So of course, all of us parents tensed up thinking, "Is she talking about my child? His tennis shoes are black, his winter jacket, is that a problem? Am I'm supposed to send him to school in white tennis shoes?" That's the first reaction, the second is "A goth 3rd grader doesn't seem right to me either. There's a reasonable middle between this and panic over black tennis shoes."

I kind of look at advice like this as if it came from my mother. My mother is alarmed when she sees a toddler wearing a mullet, a black leather jacket and adidas just like his Dad, or glittery hooker eye-shadow on ten year olds. I valued her opinion on things, probably even more than she did mine :-), but she wasn't dictating to me when she offered her opinions.

Linda
post #25 of 48
Right! (About giving opinions without dictating others' behavior through them.)

Also, I know when I was in the Waldorf school they were most concerned with black shirts and pants. The coats and shoes were not a big deal.
post #26 of 48

Black/Brown Crayons

Ok, I have been lurking here and reading these posts with interest, mostly because I have an almost 3 year old that will be starting a mother/child program this fall at our Waldorf school.

I have looked at many Waldorf toy/supply sites online and I have seen MANY sets of crayons (block beeswax) that include black and brown. This also goes for pencil crayons. I also noticed an entire set of coloured pencils dedicated to skin tones - 12 in all.

To go even further, some sites sell ethnic dolls dressed in traditional costume...many sporting black hair and brown skin.

Maybe there are some schools that exclude black & brown from their selection of crayons, but I don't believe it is across the board.

Lisa
post #27 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmamaj
Ok, I have been lurking here and reading these posts with interest, mostly because I have an almost 3 year old that will be starting a mother/child program this fall at our Waldorf school.

I have looked at many Waldorf toy/supply sites online and I have seen MANY sets of crayons (block beeswax) that include black and brown. This also goes for pencil crayons. I also noticed an entire set of coloured pencils dedicated to skin tones - 12 in all.
Yes, of course. The manufacturers of these products don't make these decisions. The decision to exclude black, when and where that occurs, would happen at the school level.
Quote:
To go even further, some sites sell ethnic dolls dressed in traditional costume...many sporting black hair and brown skin.
Again, this is a marketing decision by the manufacturer. Have you found dark skinned angels? I did a search on "Waldorf Angels" and this led me to lots and lots of dolls. I was unable to discover a dark-skinned angel represented anywhere. Looking at Waldorf doll choices was quite interesting - very few of the sites included dark skinned dolls (actually, I only found one, but I'm assuming there were more). Waldorf dolls are overwhelmingly white skinned and, again, in the case of angels, I'd be surprized to find any with dark skin. But let's not stop there - how about fairys? Are fairy's with dark skin represented anywhere? I was unable to find this either. But I think eveyone should do their own search - please don't take my word for it.
Quote:
Maybe there are some schools that exclude black & brown from their selection of crayons, but I don't believe it is across the board.
I don't either. I think it is a common practice, but I don't think it is a practice that every single school does. Looking at the Stockmar beeswax crayon sets, there is no black in the 8 block set, nor in the 16 block set, so I could be argued that schools just buy these without thinking about what is missing. But when I consider the spiritual indications by Steiner, specifically about the color black and its negative effects on the incarnating child, I would suggest there is more to this than a school kindergarten teacher simply saying - oops, I didn't notice. As Beansavi pointed out, this is part of teacher training.

Pete
post #28 of 48


Okay, now I'm intrigued about the use of black, etc. for outlining. I do directed drawing lessons as part of our Language Arts and I've never thought about any possible negatives. Is Waldoft opposed to outlining in general?
and
How does one teach kids to color from the inside out? When I get a new class of kinders, they all draw broccoli trees and square houses. How to move away from that?

Alright, back on topic...we're looking into Waldorf for our own kids. I would just bet that our local Waldorf would be more progressive like the Seattle schools mentioned above. But, is that like saying I'm a progressive Catholic?

Thanks--just starting on the path :
post #29 of 48
Nearly every Waldorf toys site I have visited carries ethnic dolls
here are some links:

http://www.waldorftreasures.com/wald...sefamilies.htm

http://www.kinderdolls.com/fairy.html

This site actually has an option to design your own fairy, including hair colour & skin tone (brown skin and black hair are available).

http://www.waldorftreasures.com/cust...s/fairies.html

Maybe, just maybe, the Waldorf community is catching on...it wasn't long ago that you couldn't find a black or Asian Barbie, or baby doll on store shelves...now they're everywhere...it's often a supply & demand issue...if people ask for things, they will get them.

I don't go into things blindly, but with all that I have read, for bad and for good, regarding Waldorf, I feel comfortable sending my children there...

Pete, I think your point, at least where this discussion is concerned, is moot.

Lisa
post #30 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmamaj
Nearly every Waldorf toys site I have visited carries ethnic dolls
here are some links:

http://www.waldorftreasures.com/wald...sefamilies.htm

http://www.kinderdolls.com/fairy.html

This site actually has an option to design your own fairy, including hair colour & skin tone (brown skin and black hair are available).

http://www.waldorftreasures.com/cust...s/fairies.html

Maybe, just maybe, the Waldorf community is catching on...it wasn't long ago that you couldn't find a black or Asian Barbie, or baby doll on store shelves...now they're everywhere...it's often a supply & demand issue...if people ask for things, they will get them.
Um... Two of the three listings are the same website (the one I found, BTW). The third listing offers brown skinned fairies with blond or white hair - not exactly what I would call representative of minorities. I agree with you, however, that the Waldorf community is catching on in the same way toymakers caught on in the '60's.
Quote:
I don't go into things blindly, but with all that I have read, for bad and for good, regarding Waldorf, I feel comfortable sending my children there...
Then you should send them there. I have never tried to talk anyone who has thoroughly researched Waldorf and wants it for their children out of sending them there.
Quote:
Pete, I think your point, at least where this discussion is concerned, is moot.
Sure, you could make a case that there are black crayons in beeswax crayon sets as long as one manufacturer includes black in one set (even if it's the 50 color set) and that they are in Waldorf school kindergartens as long as one Waldorf school kindergarten has them. You could argue that minorities are represented in Waldorf doll stores - as long as one store has minority dolls. And when I see a black angel for sale on one of these websites, I guess my point will be moot. It won't make my point invalid, however, only arguable.

Pete
post #31 of 48
Maybe US manufacturers were making ethnic dolls in the 60's...but I am in my 30's and remember being really surprised the first time I saw a black doll (I am in Canada). They are everywhere now.

You said, "as long as one manufacturer includes black in one set (even if it's the 50 color set) and that they are in Waldorf school kindergartens as long as one Waldorf school kindergarten has them. You could argue that minorities are represented in Waldorf doll stores - as long as one store has minority dolls. And when I see a black angel for sale on one of these websites, I guess my point will be moot. It won't make my point invalid, however, only arguable. "

This argument could be reversed as well....'As long as ONE manufacturer DOESN'T sell black crayons...as long as one Waldorf doll store DOESN'T sell ethnic dolls...yada, yada...you could argue that minorities are NOT represented by Waldorf stores'...

Some people will never be satisfied...lol

Lisa
post #32 of 48

Official School Orders

Hey, I am definitely for promoting a realistic view of the human race and the "magical realms".

What I do think is important to note is that when a school submits a bulk order for the upcoming year (what you guys research on the internet is directed towards parents), they order through "Mercurius" based in Sacramento and the home of AWSNA. I have a catalog here and there is definitely a limiting on the black, etc. in the early years.

The bigger and more established the school, the more they adhere to strict Waldorf standards (i.e. Seattle, New York schools, etc.). I say this as someone who has been through training and has been offered jobs as a W. teacher in California, Washington State and Virginia.

This is just my experience, and I know I cannot speak for all schools at all times.

Sincerley,
post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmamaj
You said, "as long as one manufacturer includes black in one set (even if it's the 50 color set) and that they are in Waldorf school kindergartens as long as one Waldorf school kindergarten has them. You could argue that minorities are represented in Waldorf doll stores - as long as one store has minority dolls. And when I see a black angel for sale on one of these websites, I guess my point will be moot. It won't make my point invalid, however, only arguable. "

This argument could be reversed as well....'As long as ONE manufacturer DOESN'T sell black crayons...as long as one Waldorf doll store DOESN'T sell ethnic dolls...yada, yada...you could argue that minorities are NOT represented by Waldorf stores'...

Some people will never be satisfied...lol
I visited quite a few websites looking for a black doll and, as I said, only one site had them. I assume you have found several - why not supply links to them? And what about the black fairies and angels? I haven't found them yet despite the link you provided saying they are there. Can you supply any websites that offer them?

I am arguing that minorities are NOT represented by Waldorf stores - not because I found one website that doesn't represent them but because I could only find one that does. And, no, that one website will not satisfy me that Waldorf stores represent minorities adequately - so I guess I must be one of those "people" you are referring to.

Pete
post #34 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by beansavi
Hey, I am definitely for promoting a realistic view of the human race and the "magical realms".

What I do think is important to note is that when a school submits a bulk order for the upcoming year (what you guys research on the internet is directed towards parents), they order through "Mercurius" based in Sacramento and the home of AWSNA. I have a catalog here and there is definitely a limiting on the black, etc. in the early years.
Do they even offer block crayons in black for Waldorf schools?

Quote:
The bigger and more established the school, the more they adhere to strict Waldorf standards (i.e. Seattle, New York schools, etc.). I say this as someone who has been through training and has been offered jobs as a W. teacher in California, Washington State and Virginia.
I agree - the smaller, more parent-run Waldorf schools are likely to have a more open, less dogmatic approach to things like color. The larger, more dogmatic schools are more likely to become rigid and controlling about what is spiritually/pedagogically appropriate for young children.

Pete
post #35 of 48

Ethnic Dolls

All of these sites had Ethnic Waldorf dolls for sale. Several of the had a 'make your own' option. I did find sites that didn't carry ethnic dolls. These were mainly the sites that carry the Kathe Kruse line.

http://www.weirdollsandcrafts.com/dolls/dolls.html

http://www.naturalworldarts.com/dolls_pg2.html

http://www.joyswaldorfdolls.com/

http://www.achildsdream.com/creative...dorf_dolls.htm

http://www.threesisterstoys.com/browse.asp?id=28

http://www.blueskymama.com/dolls.htm (custom dolls)

http://peanutbutterkisses.com/dolls_waldorf.html

Lisa
post #36 of 48
About 9 yrs ago, I bought two Asian dolls from www.magiccabin.com
post #37 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmamaj
All of these sites had Ethnic Waldorf dolls for sale. Several of the had a 'make your own' option. I did find sites that didn't carry ethnic dolls. These were mainly the sites that carry the Kathe Kruse line.

http://www.weirdollsandcrafts.com/dolls/dolls.html

http://www.naturalworldarts.com/dolls_pg2.html

http://www.joyswaldorfdolls.com/

http://www.achildsdream.com/creative...dorf_dolls.htm

http://www.threesisterstoys.com/browse.asp?id=28

http://www.blueskymama.com/dolls.htm (custom dolls)

http://peanutbutterkisses.com/dolls_waldorf.html

Lisa
OK, Great! And how are we coming on the angels and fairies?

Pete
post #38 of 48
Quote:
OK, Great! And how are we coming on the angels and fairies?
In my children's classrooms the fairies had no ethnicity. They were tiny scraps of blue, green, yellow, and pink silk that fluttered at the end of a string like butterflies. The angels looked just like this: http://www.iseespots.com/merchant2/m...ategory_Code=V . They were made of wool. Like the fairies, the angels don't have an ethnicity either. They're white like light, not white like people. Very few people come in this color. The Waldorf dolls which represent people rather than fairies or angels typically come in natural colors, not in white, blue and green.

As someone else pointed out, I think it's usually *parents* who buy these things from companies like these for their children. Our kindergarten teachers usually made the dolls themselves for their own classroom.

Linda
post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaCl
In my children's classrooms the fairies had no ethnicity. They were tiny scraps of blue, green, yellow, and pink silk that fluttered at the end of a string like butterflies. The angels looked just like this: http://www.iseespots.com/merchant2/m...ategory_Code=V . They were made of wool. Like the fairies, the angels don't have an ethnicity either. They're white like light, not white like people. Very few people come in this color. The Waldorf dolls which represent people rather than fairies or angels typically come in natural colors, not in white, blue and green.

As someone else pointed out, I think it's usually *parents* who buy these things from companies like these for their children. Our kindergarten teachers usually made the dolls themselves for their own classroom.

Linda
Well, here are some links to Waldorf product manufacturers who include angels in their product lines. Let's see how angels are represented here shall we?

http://www.willowtreetoys.com/category/1aa/
http://thewoodenwagon.com/Merchant2/...endt_und_kuehn
http://thewoodenwagon.com/Merchant2/..._Code=nativity
http://www.kouklaonline.com/waldorfdolls.htm
http://www.waldorftreasures.com/wald...ialtydolls.htm
http://www.achildsdream.com/creative...hand_dolls.htm
http://www.blessingscatalog.com/menu...&CurrentPage=4
http://www.seasonsnaturaltoys.com/dolls/doll_kits.htm

And I'm still waiting to see a black angel.

And I've seen the dolls you are talking about, Linda, but I've also seen angels made by kindergarten teachers represented in beeswax figures - always pink skinned.

Pete
post #40 of 48
Quote:
And I'm still waiting to see a black angel.
There was what looks to me like a black angel in one of the links you listed above.

Angel doll

The above link points to a Waldorf angel doll that comes in the skin color you choose.

Quote:
I've also seen angels made by kindergarten teachers represented in beeswax figures - always pink skinned.
Did you express your concerns about this to any of them? If so, what was the reason given to you?

Linda
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