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Spinoff: Is it racist? - Page 9

post #161 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggie
I can understand that some races have some peculiarities and in this line, for example, some one can say "I don't date Arabs that aren't very scrupulous in their cleaning habits"
Negative cultural stereotype much??!!??

That is total freakin BS. Lovely that it comes-up in a thread about racism. Thanks for the shining example.

post #162 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT
So this means I am uneducated because I don't agree with you? The only way to learn anything is to agree with what you are saying and change my mind? I have read what you said. I DON'T AGREE WITH IT.

Maybe I am participating in this discussion so you can LEARN from me? Learn that while the way the statement was phrased may have been wrong, I seriously doubt there was racism intended. I believe the person who made the statement simply meant that she was not attracted to people with particular characteristics. It is NOT racist to not be attracted to people who appear black. It is not racist to not be attracted to Asian, or Indians. Anymore than it is racist that the sight of men who look like Christopher REEVES (never claimed I could spell :P ) makes my skin crawl. It is a preference for certain attributes, or lack there of in a mate. Nothing more.
Perhaps you should read what I posted again.
I didn't call you uneducated. And I didn't say that you have to agree with what I've said and change your mind.

You posted that you only skimmed over the last few pages of the thread. You then posted an argument against the position that the statement is racist. An argument that had already been addressed, repeatedly.

To which I responded that you might want to read the thread more closely. Perhaps you missed the parts where the argument was addressed and dismantled.

And you responded:

Quote:
Reading this thread more closely is not going to make me agree with opinions I don't agree with.
To which I said that I thought people participated in discussions to learn.

If you're not interested in learning and understanding other points of view, then why are you here? If you don't want to see how the statement is racist, then why did you open the thread to begin with? If you don't want to read what other people think about your position, then why post it at all?

You do not seem interested in opening your mind to other points of view. You have pretty much said that you won't even consider those other points of view.

So, why are you reading this thread at all?

It's easy to stick to the same opinions for a lifetime. You need only not engage with the world at large. You can avoid reading threads on racism, so that you aren't faced with the possibility that someone might disagree with your opinion on what is considered racist. It's really easy. Especially for a white person (not making assumptions, just mentioning an aspect of white privilege).

The fact that you have refused to even consider the positions of others, and are holding so firm to your opinion in the face of those positions, even to the point of saying that you won't read closer because your opinion won't change - all that tells me that you're not interested in learning. You're not interested in opening your mind, in expanding your worldview.

So, again, why are you here?
post #163 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamajama
OMG can you please take out the example of a man who died while fighting for the lives of many who will follow in his footsteps. A beautiful person who, in fact, profoundly epitomizes the exact opposite of all you are saying?? And his name was Christopher Reeve
http://www.christopherreeve.org/
Ok, so because he was a good man and did this that and the other, it is wrong of me to not be attracted to him?

This has nothing to do with who did what or what type of person they are. The simple truth of it is, people are attracted to certain types of people and it does not make them racist or wrong because they are not attracted to them.

My problem with Chistopher Reeve is that my ex resembles him. So now everytime I see someone who looks like this, including Christopher Reeve, it litterly makes my skin crawl. Is this my problem? Sure, Is it racisit? No. Might I miss out on meeting a beautiful person some day because of it? Maybe but again it is my problem. I just can't get past the crawling skin part.

And regarding the OP, I have already stated that the orginail statement was wording wrong. I just don't believe it had racist intent.
post #164 of 240
Quote:
You posted that you only skimmed over the last few pages of the thread. You then posted an argument against the position that the statement is racist. An argument that had already been addressed, repeatedly.
I did read where it was addressed. I just don't agree with the statements that were made in regards to it. While you see a difference between not begin attracted to a black person and not being a attracted to a red head, I do not.

Quote:
If you're not interested in learning and understanding other points of view, then why are you here? If you don't want to see how the statement is racist, then why did you open the thread to begin with? If you don't want to read what other people think about your position, then why post it at all?
If I don't see how the statement is racist then I am wrong? IMO if you don’t see how it is not racist but more ignorant, then you are not learning from my opinion.

I am not going to change your mind that it is not racist any more than you will change my mind that it is. So at this point, I will agree to disagree and leave this thread.

Happy debating!
post #165 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggie
I can understand that some races have some peculiarities and in this line, for example, some one can say "I don't date Arabs that aren't very scrupulous in their cleaning habits" or "I don't like guys with Asian eyes" or "Uneducated Spaniards" or what ever, those are very respectable opinions and everyone is entitled to dislike certain features from others

Oh dear I don't want to be mean, because your heart seems to be in the right place, but those are not respectable opinions. Yes, people are entitled to them but please don't use those particular statements as examples of respectable opinions. They are pretty ugly.
post #166 of 240
I am in awe of all the mental gymnastics people will do to avoid the word "racist".

Racism isn't leprosy, people. It's not a personal flaw. It's a result of living in a racist society, which I would venture to say we all do.

Good, nice, decent people say racist things and have racist beliefs.

And calling the statement in the OP "ignorant" or "biased" or "shallow" isn't going to change the fact that it is

RACIST

RACIST

RACIST

and so is the mindset that leads people to parrot "It's personal preference".

In a world where people with darker skin have consistently been marginalized and demonized, there is zero chance that a "personal preference" against them is just spontaneous and idiosyncratic. It is a product of all the racism that you have been taught your whole life, and you need to turn, address it, and root it out.
post #167 of 240
I really wanted to post to this thread, but my stinky lil Arab needs a diaper change, though it's probably a waste of time, since apparently it's genetic. Those peculiar Arabs. :LOL
post #168 of 240
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by girlndocs


In a world where people with darker skin have consistently been marginalized and demonized, there is zero chance that a "personal preference" against them is just spontaneous and idiosyncratic.
You know, I have learned a lot of things in this thread. But what I still do not understand is why a personal preference against dark skin can NEVER be just a personal physical preference.
We are ONLY able to have personal preferences against the NON-oppressed?? I can have a personal preference against blonde women (who have often been held up as the epitome of female beauty in our society) but I cannot have a personal preference against dark skin???

For the record, I think dark skin can be very, very sexy and attractive. Blonde women, not so much for me. I can count on one hand the number of blonde women I have ever thought aesthetically "beautiful" - and there are WAY more blonde women than that thought aesthetically beautiful by general society.

So why is it possible for me to have this personal preference against the "priveleged" group in this country, but there is just zero, zero chance that someone could spontaneously have a perference against a non-priveleged group?
post #169 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by girlndocs
In a world where people with darker skin have consistently been marginalized and demonized, there is zero chance that a "personal preference" against them is just spontaneous and idiosyncratic. It is a product of all the racism that you have been taught your whole life, and you need to turn, address it, and root it out.




The cases of black men who won't date black women, or won't date dark-skinned black women - those "preferences" usually come from the same place. White people are not the only ones hearing and internalizing racist messages.
post #170 of 240
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamajama
OMG can you please take out the example of a man who died while fighting for the lives of many who will follow in his footsteps. A beautiful person who, in fact, profoundly epitomizes the exact opposite of all you are saying?? And his name was Christopher Reeve
http://www.christopherreeve.org/
mamajama, it is blatantly obvious that we are talking about different ideas of "beauty."

Was Christopher Reeve a beautiful PERSON in general with a beautiful SOUL? Sure. I don't think any of us here would disagree with that.

Was he PHYSICALLY and AESTHETICALLY beautiful? Well, to some, yes, very. To some, he was okay. To some he might have been "ugly" - PHYSICALLY speaking. We all have different ideas about what is physical beauty.

Just because I think someone is physically unattractive (and no, I don't feel that way about Christopher Reeve) does not mean I think they are an ugly person in GENERAL or that they don't have a beautiful soul or that they are not a worthy person. It just means that their *physical appearance* does not please my eyes.

You seem to imply that if one does not find ALL people equally PHYSICALLY attractive, then they are not a nice person. I don't agree.
post #171 of 240
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post #172 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by fire_in_july
You know, I have learned a lot of things in this thread. But what I still do not understand is why a personal preference against dark skin can NEVER be just a personal physical preference.

I think it can be. As long as it is universal.

People who have a personal preference against dark skin don't have a personal preference against black people. Not all black people have dark skin. The personal preference also includes dark white people, for example.

Saying you don't date black people is racist.

Saying you're not attracted to dark skin isn't necessarily racist, so long as you're universal in that. Don't tell me you won't date someone with dark skin, and then let me catch you with a deeply tanned white lifeguard, ya know?

Personally, I'm not especially attracted to people with pale skin. I wouldn't say that I don't date white people, though. Not all white people have pale skin, and some people of color do have pale skin.

Of course, as I said before, personality trumps all. I'm not at all sure that I'd be comfortable hanging out with anyone who decided that they don't date certain people because of a specific physical feature.
post #173 of 240
This thread has raised some ugly, ugly thoughts.
post #174 of 240
aniT- antagonistic much? Your thoughts are all over the place and you keep bringing up and answering to ideas no one even shared. No one said it was wrong to NOT be attracted Christopher Reeve-just leave a great man out of an ugly debate.People could care less about your connection to him because of your ex.You have missed many valid points here and posted NOTHING new worthy of continued thought......That is if you are still lurking to read this post....I think it was a good idea to walk away when you did.
post #175 of 240
Now, as a mama trying to raise a beautiful black (albeit mulatto, but still dark) son, this is an interesting thread. I've never dated anyone of another race (I'm white) but not out of a dislike for the "others". I just never met anyone of another race that I was interested in or vice versa. I married a white guy, not b/c he's white, but b/c I love him. I think if I heard someone say that they wouldn't date a black man, it would make me kinda pissy....So,, you're writing my son out of all future dating schemes b/c of his color? I'm rambling...

My point is that its unfair to say you wouldn't date someone of a certain race if you haven't met every member of that race and decided from there....
post #176 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotusdebi
If you're not interested in learning and understanding other points of view, then why are you here? If you don't want to see how the statement is racist, then why did you open the thread to begin with? If you don't want to read what other people think about your position, then why post it at all?

You do not seem interested in opening your mind to other points of view. You have pretty much said that you won't even consider those other points of view.
It doesn't really sound like you are interested in opening your mind to other points of view either, considering you have already stated that this is racist and that some people here don't want to understand that. You say this as though it is an undeniable fact. Is there a Racism Handbook that I am unaware of? No one has to agree, but there certainly doesn't have to be any beating into submission either.
post #177 of 240
Maybe I'm just odd, but it seems excessively shallow and short-sighted and narrow-minded to assert that you (general you) could never be attracted to someone with darker skin. Many relationships grow out of an initial friendship that didn't have that *spark* in the beginning. Real love is a connection that goes so much deeper than skin and I find it disturbing that so many people can justify using skin color or race to determine the nature and the depth of a relationship. It's superficial and it is a decision based in prejudice. And maybe now I'm responding as the mama to two beautiful dark-skinned boys. It saddens me and it scares me that so many people are willing to judge them and dismiss them so quickly. You don't know their souls or their hearts, and sadly you never will because you've made that choice, you've drawn that line. And, honestly, as a mom, that pisses me off.
post #178 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy
Maybe I'm just odd, but it seems excessively shallow and short-sighted and narrow-minded to assert that you (general you) could never be attracted to someone with darker skin. Many relationships grow out of an initial friendship that didn't have that *spark* in the beginning. Real love is a connection that goes so much deeper than skin and I find it disturbing that so many people can justify using skin color or race to determine the nature and the depth of a relationship. It's superficial and it is a decision based in prejudice. And maybe now I'm responding as the mama to two beautiful dark-skinned boys. It saddens me and it scares me that so many people are willing to judge them and dismiss them so quickly. You don't know their souls or their hearts, and sadly you never will because you've made that choice, you've drawn that line. And, honestly, as a mom, that pisses me off.
You're a mama and you love your boys, as you should. I think you might be taking it too personally though. Why be offended if someone has decided prematurely that they don't want to date your boys? Is it worth it? You know they deserve better than that anyways, right? My son is not circumcised and I know that there are plenty of people out there that have already decided that they won't be with someone that is uncircumcised. Yeah, it's annoying, but if they are going to be that ignorant, then good riddance. I am not going to make it my life's mission (not saying that you are) to make sure that every single woman out there has no qualms about an uncircumcised penis. Either you like it or you don't.

I would like to know how many have considered the fact that the statement "I don't date black men" could be followed up with "because I don't know any.", "because I haven't had the opportunity.", "because I am married.", "because I am a lesbian.", not just assume that it must be followed with "because I hate black people.", or something equally nasty?

I see a lot of people getting very upset about things when they read too much into it. Take it as the words are, not what you (generally) think someone is implying. The original question was with the word don't, not won't.
post #179 of 240
By syaing one would never date a particular group, they are assigning characteristics (physical or not) to an entire group of people that they may or may not have. That is racist. I cannot believe this is not clear. I cannot believe I am even bothering.
post #180 of 240
First of all, everyone I know who has used that phrase lives around me. It has nothing to do with opportunity. And to suggest someone would make such a specific assertion because they're married? That requires a general statement, not one directed towards a specific group. The implications were clear.

Secondly, what scares me about people making prejudiced assumptions and declarations has little to do with my boys' future relationships and everything to do with the very real prejudices that are not expressed so freely. That's the racism that will ultimately hurt them. But, it's all connected. If we accept someone's assertion that they are dismissing an entire race of people and it's simply about, oh, preference, lust, nothing personal, we let a little more racism seep in until that, too, becomes acceptable. It's the racism that isn't expresses so widely that scares me; this is just an indication of the deeper issue.
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