sexuality becoming more ambiguous?

[AutumnWind]

I'm a big fan of Real World, Road Rules & those kinds of shows. (I even watch Anna Nicole, although that's sort of like watching a train wreck.) I think some of the reality shows are good documentary-type snippets of pop culture. I know this is a contraversial idea, but I do think there is value & interesting insite gained from these shows. Just my opinion.

One trend I've noticed in observing generation X-type reality shows, and definitely generation Y reality shows, (in addition to sitcoms like Friends & the like....) is that sexuality has become much more ambiguous. It used to be that sexuality was portrayed as gay, straight or bisexual, with clear deliniations between. In fact, the term bisexual was a contraversial term (i guess it still is....). But now, it seems that same sex experiences are more accepted as part of growing up. For generation Y especially. It seems that sexuality is a broader thing, and one is not classified as "gay" or even "bisexual" necessarily if one has same sex experiences. I've also noticed this trend in videos (like Christina A's "Dirrty", and in her recent "you think you know but you have no idea" show on MTV, she was briefly kissing her female assistant, lingeringly I think, but I think she's also attracted to guys). Not the male rapper videos, but in videos done by female artists.

Coming of age in the 80's in a small town (we didn't even have MTV at that time), this was NOT the case in my school & my circle of friends & schoolmates. But it seems now to be more accepted even in rural America (to have sexual experiences with both genders).

I think this is interesting, because I've always wondered if sexuality runs on a continuum rather than in "categories". I'm wondering if it's just a human thing to have experiences with both genders, and our culture just limits it & suppresses some of it? I don't know. I consider myself a heterosexual woman. I'm married & very physically attracted to my dh, who I've known for 11 years. But I'm thinking that this broad sexual experience is so common in the media now & in these "documentary-type" pieces, that it may be part of the human condition that will become more & more common in future generations?

I don't know, what do you think?

[khrisday]

I have always thought that sexuality is a continuim more that specific categories, and I even think that you can move along the continuim somewhat throughout your life. Just liek as a young person you may be attracted more to the "bad boy/bad girl" but after several failed relationshops with them, your fantasy may shift more towards a stable and responsible person. Anyway, I don't think that sexuality is getting more ambiguous, I think the natural ambiguity of sexuality is becoming more accepted in our culture.

[AutumnWind]

Yes, that sounds more like it. The "natural ambiguity" is what I'm thinking of. It seems like younger generations especially are embracing the natural ambiguity of sexuality.

Nicely put.

[StarMama]

I've noticed that too. And your comment on Christina A. kissing her assistant, but liking men made me remember high school. I'm "technically" part of generation Y (I guess thats what its been called??) two months shy of being part of generation x (according to one friend who knew such dates)... Anyways, when I was a senior, there was a fad going on at my school. It was very 'cool' and hip for girls to kiss, hug, have relationships with one another. Even if they liked boys. There were a LOT of girls doing this.

On one hand, this was great, I though. People being able to be more free about their sexuality. But then with some people it was really just a fad. I knew some of the girls and you could really pick up on the fact that they were just doing it to be cool.

So anyways, just wanted to share that, for what its worth.

[AutumnWind]

Yes, that's interesting, Lisa_Lynn. Like you, I'm at the "edge" of a generational category. I was born in 1967, so I'm generation X, but I'm one of the oldest X'ers. (i learned the exact dates in college and grad school but have forgotten them now..........) In fact, my dh is only 4 years older than me, but he's classified as a young Baby Boomer. My parents are Baby Boomers, but they are on the older side of the Baby Boomer group. My mom was born in 1947.

Anyway, being part of generation Y, it's interesting that you experienced the existence of this "fad". I'm not that much older than you, but it was totally "taboo" to kiss same sex peers in the 80's. A BIG cultural change seems to have happened recently in terms of acceptance & experimenting & that sort of thing.

There's a sort of freedom about it - and maybe a rebelliousness too? Partly for shock value and partly for the natural sexual feelings, and partly in the name of tearing down barriers?

[DaryLLL]

Being born in '55, I am right in the heart (the crotch?) of the baby boom. Well, I think modern androgyny started back in the dawning of the age of Aquarius. (Altho things got pretty strange in the roaring 20's. Watched Cabaret lately? ) In the late 60's, men started getting in touch with their feminine side, wearing flowered shirts, long hair, ruffles and furs. Womyn started wearing pants as a matter of course. Men started wearing makeup in the very early 70's, New York Dolls, Andy Warhol's friends, David Bowie, T Rex, Rocky Horror, even ol' Mick Jagger. Glitter rock.

Punk was kind of polymorphously perverse, and we had Patti Smith.

Those disco fever types look pretty swishy to me too! That was all gay at first.

Then of course we had Boy George and Anni Lenox from the Eurythmics in the mid eighties, thank goddess, as an antidote to mainstream macho Reaganism.

How much of this trickles down to the mainstream varies, probably more on the coasts than in the middle.

It's a pendulum, and it keeps swingin.'

[merpk]

But some of it, like the stuff of Christina Aguilera, or female pop stars, isn't intimations of female same-sexuality a big male fantasy? And isn't anything that sells going to be played up?

Basically my point is, it's being sold for the consumption of young males, and to teach young girls what males find sexy, so that said young girls can continue to be enticing to said males.

Ie., more men have taught more women how to turn them on.

Spare me.

As in bus stop ads with suggested women lovers all over NY for years now, selling women's clothing lines. I hardly think there are enough lesbians to justify this extreme mass marketing tactic. Nope. It's directed to men.



- Amy

[AutumnWind]

I'm not thinking as much about androgyny (which I totally agree started developing in the late 50's or so......) as much as I am about a sort of natural broadness about sexuality, that I think has been suppressed of late, and may be enjoying a comeback. In the small town where I grew up (which is definitely considered eastern U.S) even during the age of aquarious there was not a broadness about sexuality. Even though we had glitter rock and long hair on men, and women wearing jeans and all that, it was not widely accepted for women to kiss each other sexualy/romantically like at parties & that sort of thing. In rural America, I mean. And I'm not talking about lesbianism exactly, I'm thinking of sexuality more on a continuum. I'm talking about women of all sexualities - heterosexual especially. What I'm noticing now is that it's becoming more common, at least for young women, to have sexual experiences with both males and females. It seems not as "taboo", is what I mean.

In contemplating why that is - it's hard to tease it out exactly. I think some people are DEFINITELY affected by the fact that it's a turn on for some guys to see 2 women kissing. And you do see this or the suggestion of this in advertising - I agree.

But I'm sensing that it's more than that. I don't think that women are totally controlled or inspired by what turns men on! I think that the can also be controlled by what turns THEM on as women.

OK - baby is crying, I'll write later.

[*~*SewHappyNow*~*]

I don't want to offend anyone, but I have noticed it is definitely more "trendy" to be bi for women. Of course it is more acceptable these days, but it is also considered to be "cool" by the generation I suppose you might call generation Y. That is just my observation.

I say trendy, because I do not believe all the women who are experimenting with this sort of sexuality would nessecarily be trying it out of shear desire as opposed to the "well all my friends are doing it. So is Christine A. and other pop stars too, so it must be cool." In some cases I think one might get the idea that it will make you more popular with the guys too, since I can barely think of any guy who doesn't find the idea of 2 girls to be a turn on

I'm not saying its wrong or right, I have just noticed that this is the case lately.

[Clarity]

Depending on where/if you went to college, female same sex experience is and was extremely common and accepted since the 70's. I think all-female colleges in the northeast, followed by liberal arts schools particularly with a strong community of feminists made it a pretty comfortable environment. Many of my older friends (I am 31, they're 40ish) experienced this, as well as women in the feminist and lesbian communities have discussed it in print...and I certainly did see similar things in college in the late 80's, early 90's.

I would say it has become more mainstream now....not just artsy/liberal/intellectual/free spirit types. But I have definitely heard a lot of group sexual experiences including m/m and f/f happening pre-HIV in large state university kind of environment. Sounded pretty common actually, in "decadent" late 70's to mid 80's (the studio 54 example is extreme, but very valid). As were a number of sexually ambiguous stars as has been mentioned. A lot of guy action, just quieter, (unless you were a rock star ) while the girls were a lot more out there. I think that continues to be true.

What is interesting is that it's no longer as political a thing as it sometimes has been, and that we're finally moving away from a binary view of sexuality, which never fit me very well at all anyhow...so some people's insistence (in both the gay and straight communities) was always kind of odd to me.

But for a lot of people, as Dr. Drew observed recently, it does seem like they have a mental checklist: anal? samesex? threesome? and in some cases, do things they don't particularly want to, but feel is expected, I think, to project an image of sophistication. Guy interest in girly sex is definitely a factor. And the current fashion trend in rock and pop culture for strippers and porn stars who are appearing in a number of videos. And the whole amateur porn genre.

Use of drugs and alcohol I think affects this quite a bit, by at the lowest level, lowering inhibitions. Maybe the wider use of ecstasy may be nudging this along a little? E can make you a little cuddly with everyone and not worry about the gender stuff as much.

(ok, edited to add, we could take a sideline into exploring the original "free love " movements of the 19th century, with some overlaps with other social movements of the time. One of these social experiments was the original Oneida commune among many many others. In europe there were a number of writers and artists living that kind of ambiguous lifestyle with partners of both genders in a relatively public way, among their own social circle anyway which was acceptable as long as it wasn't "too" public. Oscar Wilde crossed that line and had a very famous trial and imprisonment. Many many people embraced by the gay community as gay actually had lovers of both sexes at various times. So basically, I think the evolution is long, and complicated.)

[AutumnWind]

Yes, I think it's a combination of trendiness, more acceptance of a broader sexual experience, and women's own desires & maybe discovering (possibly by accident in some cases?) that they can be turned on by both genders. And drugs & alcohol make sense, too, and are used more by younger generations. And they lower inhibitions, as was said.

The thing I find interesting is that it finally seems to be trickling down to rural America. I think this means something different than having famous people (rock stars, artists, ect.) be accepted & celebrated for their broad sexualities. They are often given more freedom & surround themselves with more liberal communities, and some people chalk it up to an artistic, free lifestyle. I think the fact that it's reaching rural America is an even bigger step toward thinking of sexuality in a totally different way in the mainstream.

Somehow I think it also has to do with homosexuality being much, much, much more respectfully portrayed in primetime TV than it used to be. [Although, I'm not speaking of homosexuality per se in the question I posed about same sex kissing - I find it interesting that many people who indulge in it are mostly heterosexual.] I think when prime time sitcomes are beamed into almost every home in America, it does affect the culture. I know that it has to already be happening in the culture for the sitcoms to carry it off, but it's a snowball effect, I think. There is "some" acceptance of broader, less binary sexuality, so then it's portrayed on many sitcomes over years, and the TV material itself affectst the culture in return.

[Clarity]

You're right, tv indeed may have a lot of influence, especially because peopel do think reality shows are reality...when most of those people were cast for their atypicalness! And you know they must "act up" or show off a little extra for the camera. Like roleplaying a little soap opera

[AutumnWind]

I think it's magnified on reality TV shows, but I do think that what is portrayed does exist in our culture, expecially in younger generations. I do think these pop-documentary-type programs (esp the MTV ones, which I think are done well) are sort of a snippet of popular culture in certain segments of the population.

Just my opinion.

[*~*SewHappyNow*~*]

I think it's magnified on reality TV shows, but I do think that what is portrayed does exist in our culture, expecially in younger generations. I do think these pop-documentary-type programs (esp the MTV ones, which I think are done well) are sort of a snippet of popular culture in certain segments of the population

Hmm makes one think doesn't it. Do reality TV shows reflect our culture or create it Chicken and the egg...

[AutumnWind]

Originally posted by AutumnWind
I think when prime time sitcomes are beamed into almost every home in America, it does affect the culture. I know that it has to already be happening in the culture for the sitcoms to carry it off, but it's a snowball effect, I think. There is "some" acceptance of broader, less binary sexuality, so then it's portrayed on many sitcomes over years, and the TV material itself affectst the culture in return. [/B]

Yes. I've been thinking of from a 'chicken and the egg' standpoint, too. As I said before, I think it's sort of cyclical. Something is there at a grassroots level, or more, and it's portrayed in the media, and the media sometimes then affects the phenomenon & it grows, and snowballs, from a feeling of acceptance perhaps brought on by the fact that it's in the primetime media, as a matter of course.

[AutumnWind]

I'm from rural America, and I agree to a certain point that it's got a LOOOOOOOOOONG way to go. But, I've seen a change in the past 10 years, for sure. There is less hostility and more acceptance toward a broader way of thinking of sexuality, and of homosexuality in particular. That is not to say that there is NO violence and no HOSTILITY in all of rural America over the issue. But I've seen a change. I live in upstate New York, and my area is a sort of conservative, Republican area, and I've seen a positive attitude change here. I was raised in rural Pennsylvania, more rural than where I live now, and I also see a change there, although a slower one. Also, I see a change on television in especially generation Y in a broader concept for sexuality than straight or gay. Or even strictly bisexual. There seems to be a more free way of thinking of it than in the 80's.

It's a slow change, but I think it's happening.

[Yammer quote: It is oft said that there are very few perfect Kinsey ones and fives -- that most of us are, if not in the middle, at least a tiny bit away from the extremes of homo- and hetero.]

I agree that it is oft said - but it's been mostly said in academia. Now I'm seeing it said in a little bit more mainstream way, often through media.

[MysticHealerMom]

continuum vs standard roles

I think you're right about the continuum. I think it has to do with gender roles, as well as sexuality.

Recently I took a sociology class and we discussed gender as a contiuum and I was having a discussion w/my MIL about it and she was saying how sex and gender roles are no longer cut and dry - this is what makes a man, and this is what makes a woman. And the interesting thing is that not just popular culture is acknowledging it, but your varoius -ologies - psychology, sociology and there are a great number of studies that enforce the continuum idea.

Personally, I think it's really exciting to push the former boundaries of sexuality and gender roles and I'm glad to see it exercised. I suppose some folks don't like anyone tampering with what they are used to seeing. That's pretty sad as it's not a threat to anyones feminity or masculinity. Nor is it a threat to the nuclear family, society or the economy.

Thanks,

Lori