Do you "punish" your child?

[ShadowMom]

I was watching Malcolm in the Middle a little while ago (I love that show) and the boys did something bad (can't remember what).

Of course, the parents (Lois and Hal) had to think up a punishment for them.

For some reason, that rubbed me the wrong way. Will "punishing" my child really help them to behave better? Will it really help them when they get out in the real world?

Yet, if I don't have "punishments", what do I do when DS (or future kids) does something really bad - like hit the dog?

Right now he's not old enough to understand the "punishment" concept anyway, but I would like to be prepared.

Please talk to me about what you do when your child does something you don't want them to, and why you do it that way.

I apologize if this is one of those things that has been covered a million times : I've lurked in this forum occasionally and haven't seen it talked about that much, at least not directly.

[annakiss]

I've been thinking about this some lately and reading Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn. First off, in the book he talks about why punishment doesn't work. Haim Ginott says "Misbehavior and punishment are not opposites that cancel each other; on the contrary, they breed and reinforce each other." Punishment doesn't work because it is not fun for the punished. The punished person feels isolated and angry, but probably not much like changing their behavior. If anything, they're given further reason to act out or to simply be more devious and sneaky and manipulative about it. Lots of the things we punish children for we would never punish an adult for. It's better to try to model behavior and influence children than to punish them. Punishment is just manipulation.

So what I do. First, I try to avoid as much as possible the things that make my child act out. I try to avoid taking my 3yo to the grocery store, for example, because he just wants to run around and act like crazy and it's too much trouble for me, especially now with a new baby. I try to ward off negative behavior by making sure that there are lots of things that he can do around and by making sure he doesn't get overtired or hungry.

Second, instead of punishing, I explain, or redirect or offer choices. So with things that I simply don't want him to do like make a mess, I try to offer a different way of accomplishing the same thing. So if he's throwing crayons around, first I stop him physically. Then I ask him to help me pick the crayons up and maybe throw them in the pencil bag we keep them in. We do this with blocks too. Throw them into their storage container. Or give him a ball to throw around. The whole time, I explain why we're doing it. So we don't throw crayons because it makes a mess for mommy to clean up, which I don't like to have to do and we could lose them or break them and he won't be able to use them to color anymore. But we can throw this ball back and forth to each other, or he can throw it and chase it... etc.

With things that are truly off-limits like hitting the dog, I stop him physically from hitting the dog, explain why it's not okay and find something else for him to do or encourage him to pet the dog nicely.

Sometimes it's hard to have the patience required to do all this, and I'm not always successful, but I'd rather do it this way than suffer the long-term consequences of punishing. It's hard to see the short term benefits as well, but I know that he won't likely be exhibiting these undesirable behaviors later on and I try to appreciate that he is not the sum of his behavior. Often, there is a reason behind what he does and it's up to me to figure out what that is rather than simply punishing the symptom.

[Pandora114]

And you see where punishment gets Malcom's parents.

The boys just come up with more devious and imaginitive ways to do whatever misbehaviour they want to do, fully knowing it's wrong for them to do it.

[irinam]

First - anna kiss, I love you You put it in such great way

Second - I totally see what you are saying Kristi. The word "punishment" rubs me the wrong way too. It's like I am drill sergeant or something "Give me 20 right now!" :LOL I am not that to my kids.

I often compare how *I* would feel if my DH was to start "thinking up" punishments for me, yk : ?

I am not an angel myself and do stuff that even by a stretch of imagination can not be considered "good" : I re-think it later, sometimes with the help of other people, regret that I did what I did and TRY not to repeat it again.

Not always can I not repeat it :

So, to answer your question about what to do "if"... it depends on many things - DC age, circumstances, DC's mood, reasons behind the action.

Basically - access the situation and get to the root of it. Is he/she tired? Does he/she not know any better? Is he/she striving for attention? and so on.

[bec]

I guess some of the things I do may look like punishment, but I really try hard to think of natural consequences instead. I find they are much more effective than just a punishment. If one of the kids hits or does something violent to their siblings or the dog, for example, that usually gets a time out (occasionally in the corner if I've lost my patience). My reasoning is that, if they hit, they need to be separated for a little bit. This gives me time to see to the injured party, the injured to feel like they are being protected, and for the aggressor to have a few moments to reflect on what they did, as well as to calm themselves down enough so they have control over themselves. Obviously, this works really only on my older daughter right now. Emily is only 19 months, so a bit young for this kind of discipline. Although, if she is the aggressor (and she usually is, frankly), I will separate them for a time.


Bec

[UUMom]

That's one of the reason we love MITM. The parents are so totally clueless.

I can only think of one punishment- and that was when I sent a 10 yr old to his room for the evening. We did it because we could not get creative that night. I have no idea what the heck we were thinking, really.

Otherwise, no, I can't think of any other punishments. I can't even think of a time my kids did anything really 'bad', either. We haven't had any stealing or fighting or anything like that. I can't even think of any big lies. (Maybe my 16 yr old can...lol but I've never caught him in one).

Oh, wait, one time i did blow up over finding porn on the family computer. I ranted about respect and how there was not going to be any treating humans as objects in *this* family. etc. We said no computer for a few days until Dad and I figure out what we''re going to do about this. But i didn't think of it as punishment...but i suppose it was.

[sunnysideup]

Great responses so far!

Yet, if I don't have "punishments", what do I do when DS (or future kids) does something really bad - like hit the dog?

Why do you think your DS would hit the dog? Because he is mean and wants to hurt the dog? Obviously not. Because he doesn't understand that hitting hurts the dog. Why would you punish someone for not understanding? Our goal as parent is to help them learn. Punishments take the focus off of the lesson to be learned, promote negative labeling ("naughty"), and set up an adversarial relationship.

[Silliest]

>> I really try hard to think of natural consequences instead. <<

If you have to think about it, it's not a natural consequence.

If you have to work really hard at it, it's not even a logical consequence.

jump in the puddle > get wet feet is an example of a natural consequence.

anything that requires parental intervention... isn't.

[johub]

I avoid punishments. I think that other forms of learning are preferable. I also have a 13 year old and I have learned from experience that punishments do not inspire good behavior.
However I would not say that I "never" punish. Sometimes I need to punish just to remove from a situation or to really enforce the severity of the situation.
For example, punishing my daughter for being late coming home from her friends didnt help one bit. I could punish her till the cows came home and she just wouldnt pay attention to the time.
HOwever when she was 13 and purposely disobeyed by taking the city bus to a friends house after school when she was told no and that she must come home. I DID punish her because her safety was at issue and if I could not trust her to use her independance wisely, I couldnt allow her to have it.
Also since I believe discipline is about learning, I think punishment is not called for if the behavior has not yet been mastered.
However if my child shows they have mastered the proper behavior and they exhibit it anyway. I might also to a time out with my 3 year old.
But here is an example. WHen he was a young toddler, as toddlers do, he threw food. I told him repeatedly that we do not throw food and i had him help me clean up. Eventually he stopped throwing food with no punishments needed. HOwever when he ws 2 1/2 he started throwing food again because his younger brother was now 1 and was throwing food. He had already shown the ability to control himself. He had already internalized the expectation that food was not to be thrown. Reminding him and having him help clean up did not have the effect of convincing him that it was important to me that he continue to follow the rule. This was the first time I ever gave him time out. It did work very quickly. BUt time out was NOT the primary learning tool.

So do I punish? Occasionally. But I do not think it is useful as the first line of defense in a parents discipline tool kit and should only be used very sparingly. (and when the child is truly known to be capable )
I do not think punishment is an effective learning tool overall.
Joline

[annakiss]

Personally, I do not feel that punitive damage in any form is honoring and respecting the individual personage of my children, so I don't do it. Most of the time, it's just not worth it. Without experience, they will never learn.

[ShadowMom]

Thanks for your responses! They have really gotten me thinking.

Originally Posted by momoffour

Great responses so far! Why do you think your DS would hit the dog? Because he is mean and wants to hurt the dog? Obviously not. Because he doesn't understand that hitting hurts the dog. Why would you punish someone for not understanding? Our goal as parent is to help them learn. Punishments take the focus off of the lesson to be learned, promote negative labeling ("naughty"), and set up an adversarial relationship.

Wow, this really puts is clearly! Thank you!

[johub]

If the child already knows not to hit the dog and does it anyway. What then?

[annakiss]

Originally Posted by johub

If the child already knows not to hit the dog and does it anyway. What then?

Most children need to relearn the same thing over & over, especially toddlers. If it was a teenager doing this, I might wonder if they didn't have other psychological issues, but for small children, it's completely normal behavior to find this really entertaining.

[monkey's mom]

Impulse control plays a factor, too. Just as I *know* I shouldn't eat that whole bag of M&Ms sitting on my counter, well....... :LOL

And to answer the OP, no we don't punish.

Check out naturalchild website for some really good articles on why punishmnent doesn't work.

[johub]

Yes, and the fact that it is so entertaining just MIGHt be powerful enough to make them want to do it even if they know that it hurts the dog and they shouldnt.
THe fact that children sometimes do things that they know they shouldnt. (even if we assume they forgot, a reminder should suffice, but if they do it again after the reminder I think you can be reasonably certain the child is actively choosing not to obey) ANd just for the sake of doing them.
This is where the argument that all misbehavior is motivated by underlying issues falls apart.
SOme things kids just shouldn't do is just FUN, and they will continue to want to do it even after they know mom doesnt want them to.
I really do not think punishment is a good educating tool. And I would never use punishment as a primary tool with discipline.
However I do think that there are times when just teaching your child what you expect, reminding them and redirecting them , and addressing underlying issues is not sufficient.
I do not think it is always entirely inappropriate to back up your rules with the possibility of punishment.
I only hope that everythign I try first works well enough that I never have to resort to it.
Joline

[annakiss]

But backing up your rules with the possibility of punishment simply teaches children that "might makes right". It doesn't teach anything except "because I said so and if not, I'll make you hurt [emotionally]".

[johub]

Hitting may teach "might makes right" but all punishment is not equivalent to spanking or yelling.
I have heard that suggested and I simply do not believe it. Children expect us as their parents to show them limits. They look up to us and expect us to help them learn. If I refused to show my child that I was still in control ofthe situation, when he or she feels out of control I would be letting them down.
It isnt might makes right. It is that I will help you learn to control yourself until you are able to do it on your own. Yes I am bigger, but I am also older and wiser and have their best interests in heart. It isnt about size or physical power (Might) at all.
Joline

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by johub

Hitting may teach "might makes right" but all punishment is not equivalent to spanking or yelling.
I have heard that suggested and I simply do not believe it. Children expect us as their parents to show them limits. They look up to us and expect us to help them learn. If I refused to show my child that I was still in control ofthe situation, when he or she feels out of control I would be letting them down.
It isnt might makes right. It is that I will help you learn to control yourself until you are able to do it on your own. Yes I am bigger, but I am also older and wiser and have their best interests in heart. It isnt about size or physical power (Might) at all.
Joline

Showing limits, punishing, and controlling are not the same things.

fussy baby....have to run

[sunnysideup]

johub wrote:Yes, and the fact that it is so entertaining just MIGHt be powerful enough to make them want to do it even if they know that it hurts the dog and they shouldnt.

Do you think so? A very young child might take a lot of repition to understand they are hurting. The child might even be too young develpmentally to understand they are causing pain. Or maybe our perception is off and the hitting is not actually hurting the dog at all (why is the dog not running away?). But if an older child was hurting an animal for fun I would have them psychologically evaluated. I just don't think it would be normal to hurt an animal for fun.

[irinam]

Johub, may be if you gave an example of the punishments you use, it would make it clearer.

What do you consider punishment for your DC?