Do you "punish" your child? - Page 7

[Ellien C]

Originally Posted by tippytoes26

If my 3.5 year old chooses not to wash her hands after playing in the indoor playground, she could become very ill ...I feel it is my DUTY as a parent to impose more than just a disapproving look or attitude.

I feel it is my duty to get her hands washed in the MOST matter of fact way WITHOUT the disapproving look or attitude.

If I get stopped for speading, the cop doesn't just give me a disapproving look and explain to me how he doesn't approve of what I've done. He does sometimes remind me that speeding can cause accidents and isn't safe.

I'd much rather the guy just write me the ticket matter-of-factly. I sped, I'm getting fined, yup! I HATE it and react so strongly when the cop has some of attitude.

[writermommy]

Potty Diva,

Sorry if I missed this, but a few questions:

Do you have these problems everywhere, or just day care?

Did the situation start/get worse after you started working there?

I ask because for 1 1/2 years I worked as Director of a preschool where my 2 younger dds attended. The baby had no problems, but my middle daughter's behavior deteriorated to the point where I could have (but didn't) spank her. I ended up leaving and now I work from home. Her behavior (and our relationship) have totally changed for the better. I really believe that the situation of having mommy be a teacher was just too much for her. She really needed me to just be her mommy.

I don't know if this applies to your situation, but I wanted to share my experiences just in case. I didn't see it at first and wasn't even completely sure that was the problem before I quit. I'm so glad I did.

[Ellien C]

Originally Posted by tippytoes26

... how do your children react when you aren't around? What about school? after they are out on their own? Everywhere else if they misbehave, they will be punshied.

I accept that at my day care, time outs will occur. When my 2.5 yo tries to impose them on her dolls, I talk to the doll and sit with her (the doll) in timeout. I'm serious. We talk about WHY baby might hit. Baby needed a litte more space from doggie. Baby didn't have the words to say "''scuse me." Baby was feeling a little sad and wanting more loving and holding, and didn't know how to say that.

I follow the Continuum-Concept which describes what we might think of as a punishment-free culture. No one person ever imposes their will on another. This includes small children.

On thievery: Why do you not steal from your family? Is is the threat of punishment? Or because you see yourself as part of the greater whole? You'd only be "stealing" from yourself.

I like the quote "You cannot get another person to behave better by making them feel worse," and think this applies at any age.

Too much else to answer.

[cmb123]

Originally Posted by tippytoes26

If you never have any final consequences.. how do your children react when you aren't around? What about school? after they are out on their own? Everywhere else if they misbehave, they will be punshied.... Rules and punishment for non-compliance are in place in every culture around the world.

Well, my children behave mostly the same way out in the world as they do at home (actually they are better behaved at school than at home, but overall well behaved in both). The school my children attend have a "you break it, you fix it" approach to things, which is fine by me. The school also has a very extensive "social curriculum." They are all very capable of "fixing" things whether it's someones feelings, or a ripped book. Teachers help children with working out difficulties, help them put feelings into words, and help them understand eachother. Every "negative" behaviour is seen as a chance for learning, and is not brushed off but worked with in the moment. "Punishment" is a real, real rarity.
Just because we don't use "punishments" in our house, doesn't mean that undesired behaviour is simply ignored. You mentioned what do you do if one kid hits another? Well, we talk about how hitting is not OK- which is usually followed by the hitter explaining to me why they hit, which is folllowed by me explaining again why hitting is not ok, and a discussion is sparked about what the child could have done instead of hitting. This has happend in my house, and so far the child who was hit has not felt jilted to my knowledge.
We do a lot of talking in our house. We talk about all kinds of behaviour situations, real and hypothetical. Kids ask lots of questions, I answer honestly. We talk all the time about how to treat one another, and analyze situations we witness IRL or on TV, and talk about what other people do in thier homes. When my kids see other children in the store or wherever who's parents are shreiking at them, or timeouting them or spewing empty threats, they ask questions and we talk about it. I do want them to "do the right thing" because it feels good in thier hearts. I know that is what I do. I don't walk through this world doing the right thing because I fear being put in jail. I do it because that's what feels right to me.
Also, working with kids everyday, I really believe that it's the kids who do get punished at home, and/or hit at home who have the worst behaviour of all at school. I don't think the idea of punishment at home = compliance out in the world is true at all.

[Potty Diva]

Ok so I was a wench, sorry. i am just so stressed and the comment about me not using Gd sent me over the top.

Kailey is GREAT at home and elsewhere, except at granny's which is kind of stressful. But, we have time and energy to work through things with her. Her behavior is scray when she is in a room with me at childcare(generally she is not since i have the older kids but lately we have been low in numbers and combining classes. Today however i had Kailey go with her own teacher, and took another child- she had a great day. Also to add to the problem of yesterday, she didn't go to sleep until 1 am, didn't eat breakfast(didn't want it) and no nap. DUH. so ya I feel like an ass of a mother for not getting the lightbulb on earlier or I would have handled the situation much more appropriately. UGH!

Although the center where i work is wonderful and quiet and loving, easy going, etc...there is something about ME being in the center that sends Kailey over the top. We also had a teacher change a few months ago. It took her six months when she first started to get used to her old teacher. So now we are starting all over again. It pains me to see her go through such strong emotions. I KNOW why she is stressing and it kills me.

I would love to stay home with her again, but RIGHT now it is impossible. My DH only works F,Sat, and Sun as it is and goes to school during the week. I work all day and and come August 15th will be going to school in the am and working until 5:30. Kailey will be there most of the day without me.

I am also feeling crappy that I lowered myself to spanking. Thanks for tolerating my posts.

[Potty Diva]

Also, working with kids everyday, I really believe that it's the kids who do get punished at home, and/or hit at home who have the worst behaviour of all at school. I don't think the idea of punishment at home = compliance out in the world is true at all.

Before having my child I completely agreed, but I guess we are an exception to that rule. Please see above post.

in fact most children who are spanked will behave in front of the punisher, but out of sight will act out aggressively.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

Before having my child I completely agreed, but I guess we are an exception to that rule. Please see above post.

in fact most children who are spanked will behave in front of the punisher, but out of sight will act out aggressively.

And it seems that children who aren't spanked and who trust their parents often seem to have "worse" (or more authentic, anyway) behavior when with their parents. Which might explain, at least in part, why your daughter does better when she's not in the same daycare room with you, PD. When you're there, she can really be herself. And maybe she's jealous of the attention that the other children are receiving from you, too?

Overall, I guess that's a good thing. It's better than the opposite problem, right? At least she's not hiding everything from you.

I'm glad you all had a better day today.

[Potty Diva]

Dragon~ Another thing my Psyche Prof said is that, children who are raised with gd discipline act out in front of parents because they feel safe to do so. That always kept me going. he said i would see consistant results until she was 5 or 6. I guess I just forget sometimes, yk? Gawd I hate being human

[bleurae]

I was beaten almost daily as a kid. I was a scrawny lil kid with a 200lb father who would wail on me very regularly. I was chased down the street often trying to get away with no intervention from neighbors. I did hear as a young adult from a few that they really felt sorry for me back then. The last time my father hit me I was in my 20's. I was disowned over 8 years ago when he found out I was gay. I miss my mom, but not him. I also grew up to be a bully through grammar school and junior high. I was also beaten whenever I hit others. The irony kills me. When at friends houses I was very very well behaved. The only people I was pretty mean to was other kids who made fun or said mean stuff to me. Anyone who "sounded like" my parents with demeaning statements I would rage at. Other than that I was also known for being a protector of small or shy kids. I hated seeing anyone get picked on.

My point is, what is done to us, what we go through at home, in the world.....we all process differently. One child can be left to CIO and may not suffer, another may have lifelong trauma. I don't believe in CIO or "punitive" discipline. I think the test if my actions would be ok to a friend or stranger to see if they are ok for my child is a good one. Not the only one but a good one. I lose it sometimes because of my own "baggage", NOT because of anything Bliss does. When I lose it bad I yell, it is something he does not deserve, ever, and I am working on it. I am so incredibly HONORED to be allowed to be his mother and help guide him for a short time that it takes my breath away. Personally I view parenting as me trying to keep growing healthy enough and fast enough to keep up with him. Safety is my responsibility, training is not IMO.

I want him to know he is respected and valued as another fellow human being, a beautiful wonderous being.


my 2 bits more

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by bleurae

I think the test if my actions would be ok to a friend or stranger to see if they are ok for my child is a good one.

:

I am so incredibly HONORED to be allowed to be his mother and help guide him for a short time that it takes my breath away. Personally I view parenting as me trying to keep growing healthy enough and fast enough to keep up with him. Safety is my responsibility, training is not IMO.

I want him to know he is respected and valued as another fellow human being, a beautiful wonderous being.

Well, now I'm all teary-eyed.

I used to work with kids who were abused. Without exception, every one of those parents had been abused when THEY were children. I think it takes amazing strength to break that cycle.

[bleurae]

Thanks Joan,
I was thinking about it today and sometimes I am so frustrated at where I am starting from ykwim? I think wow what if I had had parents like so many women here, think how much further/calmer/wiser/grounded I would be when dealing with Bliss. I ADORE the GD boards and practice it in my homw to my best ability with constant room for improvement, but I wish I was better. I read about the other terms for 'good job" type of threads, and I work on it, but I feel like the ga I am bridging is soooo wide sometimes. I try not to get on myself to hard, but I do sometimes get so irked at my upbringing for those reasons.
I ultimately sit back, take a deep breath and try to have the sensitivity for myself as I do for Bliss but it is a definate process.
It sure does make a BIG difference to be able to come to these threads and hear such wisdom and grace and stumbles and falls all rolled up from such wonderful women trying to do the best job they can with their beloved children.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

Dragon~ Another thing my Psyche Prof said is that, children who are raised with gd discipline act out in front of parents because they feel safe to do so. That always kept me going. he said i would see consistant results until she was 5 or 6. I guess I just forget sometimes, yk? Gawd I hate being human

I hear you. :LOL Sometimes I wish I could be robot super mommy. I just have to remind myself that every time I drop my basket, there's an opportunity for valuable learning for both myself and ds.

[annab]

WHEW! Just got through the whole thing. I am right there with the food allergy moms. Dairy, wheat or beef and my beautiful boy becomes the troll from hell.

Someone asked for concrete ideas that worked. I have some. This works for my almost three and half year old, and I think it may be an age thing. I fully expect it to stop working as he matures.

We were having a problem with his not doing what I asked when it was necessary (stop screaming down the hallway when the baby is sleeping, no running across the parking lot and not holding my hand, things like this). So I asked him, "What can I do to get you to understand when something is not a choice, but something that has to be done?" He told me to put my hand up like a traffic policeman. It works. I use it very sparingly, but when the hand goes up, he stops and looks at me like, "Foiled again!"

We were having trouble leaving places (with plenty of warning and time for transition) without having total, horrible meltdowns. I asked him what I should do so that he knew we needed to leave and that I did not want a big fit to ensue. "Put your leg in the air like this" (imagine dog hiking leg--very attractive). It works.

Another thing is that when meltdown ensues, I have to get him to remove himself from it physically and mentally. I start with a few simple commands: Touch your head. Rub your tummy. Scratch your ears. When he gets in the groove, I give him something intellectual: Put your hands on your face and count your nostrils. Make a circle with your fingers and count the leaves you see in the circle. Either he is laughing at the end, or at least calm enough that we can work together to find a solution.

HTH!

[johub]

I love those ideas of him thinking up signals for you go give when you "mean it". It involves him in the process even of things he wouldnt usually be involved in. And he has more ownership of the process.
This is something I have not tried.
Joline

[ShadowMom]

Originally Posted by annab

WHEW! Just got through the whole thing. I am right there with the food allergy moms. Dairy, wheat or beef and my beautiful boy becomes the troll from hell.

Someone asked for concrete ideas that worked. I have some. This works for my almost three and half year old, and I think it may be an age thing. I fully expect it to stop working as he matures.

We were having a problem with his not doing what I asked when it was necessary (stop screaming down the hallway when the baby is sleeping, no running across the parking lot and not holding my hand, things like this). So I asked him, "What can I do to get you to understand when something is not a choice, but something that has to be done?" He told me to put my hand up like a traffic policeman. It works. I use it very sparingly, but when the hand goes up, he stops and looks at me like, "Foiled again!"

We were having trouble leaving places (with plenty of warning and time for transition) without having total, horrible meltdowns. I asked him what I should do so that he knew we needed to leave and that I did not want a big fit to ensue. "Put your leg in the air like this" (imagine dog hiking leg--very attractive). It works.

Another thing is that when meltdown ensues, I have to get him to remove himself from it physically and mentally. I start with a few simple commands: Touch your head. Rub your tummy. Scratch your ears. When he gets in the groove, I give him something intellectual: Put your hands on your face and count your nostrils. Make a circle with your fingers and count the leaves you see in the circle. Either he is laughing at the end, or at least calm enough that we can work together to find a solution.

HTH!

Wow, what fabulous ideas!! I am going to try to remember them for when my DS is a little older.

[cmb123]

Originally Posted by annab

WHEW! So I asked him, "What can I do to get you to understand when something is not a choice, but something that has to be done?"

This is the part I like the best. We do this in our house. When kids are part of the process, and the feel ownership over it, they are WAY more likely to respond when needed. One of the reasons I think my kids "follow the rules" almost all of time is because...they made them up! We sit down and have family meetings often, and talk about what is working , and what is not. The kids write down "house rules" and refer to them often if they see somone breaking them. They feel much more inclined to follow them, when it was they themselves who imposed them, not me.

[DevaMajka]

Bleurae
Your post had me in tears. I'm so sorry that you had that growing up. I'm even more sorry that no one tried to protect you. How awful.
It's great that you are breaking the cycle, and I'm so glad you found this forum for support.
I guess I don't really have much to say but that.

Becky

[bleurae]

Thanks Becky,
The sad part for me is that it is so common, that so many of my friends have the same stories.

[happeeevraftr]

Originally Posted by mercyn

i'll keep reading, though, and trying things, and looking for new ways. otherwise i'll end up with one of those 13yo's that get brought home at 3am by the police, drunk out of his mind...~shakes head~ i really, really hope not...i hope i find something that gets him to be more social, more caring, better behaved, more respectful...before then.

pamela

pamela, I'm not through this thread either, (and I hope I'm not just bringing it out of from the dust...I don't even know if it's still active!) but I just wanted to say I really recommend you read some actual books, like Kids are Worth It by Coloroso, in addition to this board. When I first started reading this board, I thought most of what the "non-punishing" people had to say was crazy, permissive, wouldn't really work in real life, kids need limits, etc, etc. Then I read the books. I learned the true meaning and explanation behind the terms. Authors of books put much more time and research into what they write than what we have time to type out on this board, and because of that, books are much better at explaining these concepts so that they make sense and actually seem possible. After reading a few books, now I'm back to reading these threads, and I really do agree with what the [previously referred to as crazy] non-punishers say!

Honestly, a few months ago, I would have totally agreed with Joline, and I can really see where she's coming from. But now I am SO on the side of not wanting to do something to shame or cause pain to my child for the sole purpose of making them pay for what they did. I don't believe that will TEACH them anything, and I think that if you're lucky and it does make them any more likely not to do it again, the reason is FEAR. They wouldn't be not doing it because they've internalized the moral lesson and realize/understand why it's bad. No, if they "obey" after being punished, it is because they don't want to get in trouble! Maybe some day, down the road, they will internalize it and eventually understand that it's not right, but it won't be because of any punishment you've imposed on them.

Okay, I guess I'm going on a little more than I planned! I have thought about this a lot. My childhood was NOT very good--I was spanked for sure, among other much worse things. Since moving out, going to college, getting a degree basically in Child Development, having a child, and doing lots more research, my views have changed from "spanking isn't terrible and is some times necessary, but I don't want to do it a lot" to "Spanking isn't good, but other forms of punishment are definetly necessary so that kids have limits, etc," to "punishment really isn't a teaching tool, it's a shaming and power tool, and not something I want to use."

I really don't want to exert complete control over my children. From what I read in Joline's posts, you want your kids to CHOOSE to do what you want them to do, and if they don't choose it automatically, you will do everything you can to talk them into it, persuade them, reason with them, etc, etc, but when all that fails and they still choose NOT to do it, you can't handle that. You're going to MAKE them do it. Or else. They DON'T have control over themselves at all. They HAVE to do what you want them to do or they will be punished.

But please don't get me wrong--I'm NOT saying we should just let them do anything they want! Certainly not. I believe we can STOP them from doing something without punishing them for it. For example, the food throwing thing. There are many things you can do to stop it--usually if they're throwing food, they're not hungry anymore, so [kindly, gently!] get them down from the table. But you don't have to put them in time out. You can still be considerate of them. (If they ARE still hungry, you need to try something else, because it would be punishment if you're making them go hungry!) I don’t see the need to add some kind of shame on top of just stopping the behavior.

It’s 3:15 in the morning and my eyes are getting blurry. I apologize if this isn’t the most well written, coherent post ever! But I wanted to share some of my thoughts, and mostly say, I’ve been where some of you have been (Joline, Pamela, others), and I can see your reasoning for sure. But after reading some very well written explanations of the nonpunishment viewpoint, I have to say it really makes sense to me. I don’t think punishment is effective as a teaching tool. Many of you have said that. If it is not an effective teaching tool, what is it and why is it used? It’s a power tool, it’s spite, it’s, you didn’t “mind” me, so now you’re in trouble! There’s no learning involved. Well, I take that back. Some things are learned. Like, “Mom claims I can choose for myself, but if I don’t do what she wants, I get in trouble, so I guess I really don’t have much of a choice.” Or maybe, “I can’t do this around Mom or I’ll have to go to time out. But I don’t really see any reason not to do it when she’s not around.” I’m going to finally shut up and go to bed now!

[annab]

I really enjoyed your post, Happee. It is cool to see someone's parenting evolution.