Kids are not allowed to use the bathroom when they need to - Page 3

[nicole lisa]

Originally Posted by Delacroix

This is the biggest bunch of BS. I can't stand this kind of thing; do you ever stop to consider how ADULTS wouldn't be expected to put up with such bizarre policies???? I'm so mad, I'm spitting nails over here.

Exactly. I have never been in a work place (if part of school is preparing for the real adult world) where adults couldn't get up from their desk and wander around as much as they wanted. I've never seen an adult have to ask, in front of her co-workers, to use the bathroom and have the possibility of receiving no as an answer. Most work environments include walking around, talking to co-workers during work hours, getting coffee, going out for a smoke or break, going to the bathroom etc and rarely is any of this scheduled. Adults would refuse most of the limitations put on kids in school in their own work environment.

I guess my main question to the school would be: so what? So what if there are kids who leave repeatedly during class and the teacher knows they aren't really using the bathroom? Isn't it the kids' responsibility to keep up with their work? Provided bathrooms aren't getting trashed (and if they were than those kids could have different bathroom restrictions) what does it matter if a kid chooses to wander out of the class? It's up to the kid to ensure she or he knows his or her stuff for tests. If a kid is getting high in the bathroom (not where I would chose - too risky) than that kid should face the consequences, but not all the other kids.

I guess I jsut think most of the rules are fear based and created in a society which doesn't trust adolescents. Which is too bad, because at age of 18 they are expected to be responsible and trusted adults but have no previous experience or opportunities in either of those things.

I was lucky enough to have teachers who were really laid back in school and students could come and go as they pleased and it didn't interupt the class or the teacher because it was done quietly. Having students putting up hands throughout class to ask to be excused disrupts the flow of the lecture or class discussion more than kids just getting up and respectfully and quietly walking out and then in again.

Maybe that could be mentioned to the teacher?

[Flor]

well, it isn't exactly like a work place. I can't fire them for being off task and spending all their time in the bathroom. I think that when most teachers get out of their creditial program they are filled with idealism and generally start out with lax bathroom rules. They often get burned by this policy by students taking advantage of the situation. I generally start out the year with lax rules but end up tightening them. They are still children and I feel their education is my responisiblity. As a parent, of course I don't want my child to wet his pants, but I also don't want him wandering the halls just because he feels like it. Students here have 7 classes of 45 minutes each. When my team gets together, we often find many students are using the bathroom daily in all of our classes! Take 5-8 minutes out of each class every day and that adds up! Our bathrooms here are constantly trashed, we find empty liquor bottles (stashed in bushes before school, I guess), cough syrup, hair products, feces smeared walls, and twice in two years students have been caught having sex in the brs. It is sad. Also, when students get in trouble when I've let them leave the room, I hear about it and my judgement is questioned. A small group of students are blowing it for everyone, but I am not always sure who is doing it and who isn't. I can't let the "good" kids wander out when they want and the "bad" kids have to ask my permission. I want to have rules that are consistant, not based on my perception of a child.

[nicole lisa]

Originally Posted by Flor

well, it isn't exactly like a work place. I can't fire them for being off task and spending all their time in the bathroom.

Yes, but if because said student is never in class she or he does poorly in class you can grade him or her poorly. If excessive bathroom use means missing key information and fail the requiresd tests than they don't pass the class. But if they are on top of the information than they surely can handle the amount they're leaving the class.

Originally Posted by Flor

I think that when most teachers get out of their creditial program they are filled with idealism and generally start out with lax bathroom rules. They often get burned by this policy by students taking advantage of the situation.

My experience in both working and teaching in schools and being a student has always been that the veteran teachers, particularly in high school, are the ones who are the most laid back. They've proven themselves in teaching (good or bad) and they've come to realize that most of the battles are about control and not education.

Originally Posted by Flor

When my team gets together, we often find many students are using the bathroom daily in all of our classes! Take 5-8 minutes out of each class every day and that adds up!

It does add up, but if the students doing this are keeping up with the class requirements than their education isn't the issue. If they can handle their work and frequent bathroom breaks than there shouldn't be an issue with their leaving.

Originally Posted by Flor

Our bathrooms here are constantly trashed, we find empty liquor bottles (stashed in bushes before school, I guess), cough syrup, hair products, feces smeared walls, and twice in two years students have been caught having sex in the brs. It is sad. Also, when students get in trouble when I've let them leave the room, I hear about it and my judgement is questioned. A small group of students are blowing it for everyone, but I am not always sure who is doing it and who isn't. I can't let the "good" kids wander out when they want and the "bad" kids have to ask my permission. I want to have rules that are consistant, not based on my perception of a child.

But you do know who are causing disruptions for other classes or in the bathrooms when they are caught. I wouldn't worry about my own judgement being called into question - the focus then should be on the student's behaviour.

If the bathrooms are being trashed then maybe the custodial staff could check on them more frequently and when someone is caught wrecking a bathroom that student should be supervised in cleaning it. I didn't suggest there are good or bad students or that anyone should be having to ask permission but those that are caught being destructive or getting high have consequences for that. Perceptions wouldn't need to be enetered into it.

As for sex in the bathrooms...so they have sex under the bleachers? Or in cars in the parking lots? Or in the custodian's closet? Or on the stage/behind the curtains in the theatre? Kids will have sex at school if they want, but it will still be the minority of kids so I guess I don't know why two incidents in a two year span (that's really miniscule) would penalize the rest of the students from accessing the bathroom or the drink fountain or taking a break from the class as they desire or need.

The tweens and teens (particularly boys) I know are so sensitive to not being trusted and to being judged by the adults around them for behaviours that are in the minority so I guess I just don't get why schools keep feeding the us against them atmosphere. Studies have shown again and again the more trust and respect teens are given the more they stand up. The more repressive the environment the more rebellion and pervasive is the attitude of "I don't care."

Simple control over bodily functions and ability to be trusted to take responsibility over their education can go a long way. The more students believe it is the teachers who are responsible for their education the more they'll want out of class, in my experience. They're not being met as respect worthy partners in their own education.

Sorry to use your post so much Flor. It's not about you; your comments were the ones easiest to view while I was writing but I know many teachers have posted and said similar thoughts.

[Cinnamon]

Originally Posted by rozzie'sma

The school said I should learn to use a tampon.

Geez! Talk about controlling other peoples bodies! The thought makes me want to puke!

[Cinnamon]

Originally Posted by nicole lisa

I guess I jsut think most of the rules are fear based and created in a society which doesn't trust adolescents. Which is too bad, because at age of 18 they are expected to be responsible and trusted adults but have no previous experience or opportunities in either of those things.

Very good point!



In one of the letters we got just before school started it said: "By the time students reach 7th grade they should have developed most of the behaviors that makes an adult and adult"

Excuse me? These kids just turned 12 and they really expect them to behave like adults?! On the other hand they treat them like juvenile delinquents in boot camp that just can't be trustet. They can't even think about learning from their own mistakes.

I am beginning to understand more and more why people opt for homeschooling...

One of the really sore points for us and especially dd is group punishment. The all talk about what to do against peer pressure and how bad it is for the kids. They hold classes on it and so on. On the other hand teachers use just that to control the kids. :

This is really not a happy subject for us.

[bremen]

why not simply keep track of bathroom uses? give the student a booklet where the teacher marks the bathroom use? then after each quartr, address the use, and see if rules need to be made. that way the child isn'T denied with a real need, but a teacher can see if the student is abusing bathrrom priveleges.
on a personal note, i believe that i only used a school bathroom a total of about 3 times in middle school. i would go befroe and after school. i wouldn't eat breakfast or lunch, so i didn't need to go.

[Cinnamon]

Originally Posted by bremen

i would go befroe and after school. i wouldn't eat breakfast or lunch, so i didn't need to go.

They are out of the house for 8 hrs. And starving herself to keep from having to use the bathroom surely is not the answer.

They put this rule into place because they don't want to have to deal with the kids individually. And keeping track of the kids would mean just that.

[Flor]

Originally Posted by nicole lisa

Yes, but if because said student is never in class she or he does poorly in class you can grade him or her poorly. If excessive bathroom use means missing key information and fail the requiresd tests than they don't pass the class. But if they are on top of the information than they surely can handle the amount they're leaving the class.




My experience in both working and teaching in schools and being a student has always been that the veteran teachers, particularly in high school, are the ones who are the most laid back. They've proven themselves in teaching (good or bad) and they've come to realize that most of the battles are about control and not education.

.

I work with middle school students so I don't feel like I can say, well, if you don't do well, I'll just give you a bad grade, your fault, your choice. They are children and I feel resposible, not just for their grade, but their education. I can't say, a bunch of my students are choosing not to do their homework, oh well, they'll fail. I seek them out, talk to them, call home set up meetings with parents, etc. because I don't believe that they are old enough to make the decision to fail.


I am wondering about your comment about vetern teachers being laid back teachers. I am still thinking about it. I think many of my students see me as "laid back" because they feel they have some control in my classroom because it is organized in a way that they have choices. I have never yelled in my classroom and it flows smoothly. They seem happy. My secret is that I am a control freak and it is this amount of control that makes them relax. It is that out of control, yelling teacher with no discipline who seems uptight. But that is another topic.

BTW, I do let my student go to the bathroom. They just absolutely drive me nuts with their excuses for going everywhere. I know, I can only make transitive verbs soo fun before someone wants to go "take a walk."

I went to a private school with had ideals very much like the ones you describe. And it worked, but it was very small and most students were dedicated to the ideals. I try to make those ideas of respect work in my public school classroom but it is harder in an overcrowded room of students who don't all choose to be there.

[stik]

These comments kind of made me pause:

As for sex in the bathrooms...so they have sex under the bleachers? Or in cars in the parking lots? Or in the custodian's closet? Or on the stage/behind the curtains in the theatre? Kids will have sex at school if they want, but it will still be the minority of kids so I guess I don't know why two incidents in a two year span (that's really miniscule) would penalize the rest of the students from accessing the bathroom or the drink fountain or taking a break from the class as they desire or need.

IIRC, Flor teaches at a middle school. Depending on the state she's in, students who have sex may be committing a status offense, even if the sex is consensual. Thus, the activity in question is considered a crime on school property and is a very big deal. But even at a high school, two incidents in which students are caught having sex in bathrooms in two years is far from miniscule.

If two got caught, how many more are doing it? What kind of risks are they taking in the process? If the involved students are not legally competent to consent, will the school be held liable? Was this behavior enabled or potentially enabled by a criminal or negligent act on the part of the school or its staff? Is it an indicator of other problems? Are students trading sexual favors for drugs? Is there hazing involved? How often are students exposed to these activities? Does involuntary exposure of uninvolved students constitute a violation of the school's obligation to provide a safe learning environment? (and if students are encountering other students engaging in sexual activity in bathrooms, the answer is "yes.") Who discovered the students, and did they intervene in an appropriate way? Did that person, intentially or unintentionally, behave in a way that might subject them to accusations of misconduct?

Some kids will have sex at school. Schools, however, really don't want them doing it there. And there's absolutely no way to tell from looking at the student body or at their cumulative discipline records which students are going to cause problems (like destroying a bathroom or having sex in it) while the faculty isn't looking directly at them.

Many posters have reported school bathroom policies which I think are ludicrous, but as much as possible, teachers do have to keep students in class, where they learn things under adult supervision, rather than in the bathroom, where they don't have the opportunity to learn and aren't supervised. It's easy to pick on public schools for having stupid policies, but there is a purpose to them.

Finally, while adults have more power than most students do, most of us do not get to take a break from our jobs as we "desire or need." I teach, so I personally basically never get an unscheduled break (I use the bathroom during lunch and between classes, just like I ask students to). But other jobs wouldn't allow me the degree of freedom the above poster describes either. Sure, I could get up from my desk and stretch, or take a short walk, but I couldn't take a 5-minute break from a meeting with a client or supervisor just because I felt like it. And I couldn't take 6 unscheduled 5- minute breaks, in addition to my scheduled breaks and lunch, every single day without being asked to provide some kind of documentation of need or explanation for my activities.

[CerridwenLorelei]

what do they do if a child has a medical condition that

requires frequent use?
I may have to put my younger ones in for a bit and my sn son may have interstial cystitis like I do-we won't know for a bit yet

I know I had to have one note from a dr and one from a uro in high school though they didn't know about ic at the time
Just I had 'some urinary defect"

thx

[mama_kass]

Two years ago we had this same problem. My son peed his pants twice and pooped in them once because he was denied access to the bathroom. Plus, the kids were not allowed to drink water when they wanted. Plus, they were forced to stand outside in the heat as punishment for not being quiet in line!

All of these things are mind control. These are things that cults would do to take control of their followers. My son was only seven. I tried working with the school. I gathered a great deal of information and sent the principal a portfolio that talked about ways to have free access to water in the classroom with statements from the AAP on drinking water and children's health. I was told that he needed a doctor's note. That might help him, but what about all the other children, and why does a person need a dr.'s note to use the bathroom and drink water?

How did we fix it? We started homeschooling and it has been a wonderful life. Please consider what the school is doing to your child physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Even if you only need to homeschool for the next five months. It is something to consider.

About the CP. My dh is currently in counseling for post tramatic stress disorder (PTSD) due to a teacher who would spank him reguarly in the second grade.

[RainbowSquidney]

I haven't read all the posts, but just wanted to share my horrible bathroom experience.
When I was in fourth grade, I had to pee sooooo bad, but if you asked to use the bathroom, you had to miss 10 minutes of recess. So I held it, and held it, and held it, until I peed my pants. Talk about embarrassing. But to a kid, recess is the best part of the day and to have even part of that taken away is the end of the world!
I'm still horribly embarrassed, to this very day, about this and I NEVER tell anybody about it IRL. :

I can't imagine how teachers don't see this as wrong. How often do they get to go to the bathroom? Do they have to ask permission? If they go, do they get privileges taken away??????

[DesireeH]

Can your daughter ask her teachers individually? I mean every teacher is different. I took all the artsy/english classes and ended up with alot more natural teachers and I knew the rules of each teacher was different. I was one of those kids that had to pee all the time! I had one teacher that only allowed 3 passes a whole semester but the following class was my more natural hippie teacher that had no problems allowing me to leave to go pee so that worked out well.

I dont think its fair for the school to ask something unreasonable because a few kids are doing bad things. I never smoked, had sex, or did anything against the rules, I just really had to pee. I always drank tons of water too and I think the teachers could see I carried around a huge water bottle (hey, helps that acne skin!) HAHA Cant they have a time limit or something? Like if the kid is gone for 10+ minutes....something might be up......but if the kid is gone for 4 minutes or whatever....then they are probably just peeing! LOL

I still am like that......in fact I have been known to have panic attacks if I feel like I cant go or there isnt a bathroom in sight. I'm sure they would have loved to see that! HAHAHAHA

[DesireeH]

Rainbow- I did that too, in second grade. My mom put me in these stupid pink overalls and I couldnt get the buckles undone so I peed my pants! It was soooooooo embarrassing!

[indiana ima]

Originally Posted by nicole lisa

... Most work environments include walking around, talking to co-workers during work hours, getting coffee, going out for a smoke or break, going to the bathroom etc and rarely is any of this scheduled. ...

lots of folks work at jobs where this is not true. such as:
factories
active duty military
mothers of small children
sole proprietorship / small businesses where there isn't anyone else to watch the till
lots of stuff i'm not thinking of, i'm sure
and, as previously mentioned, schoolteachers

on the other hand, it is just obvious to me that if a person needs to pee or poop, then they need to. they can't be expected to "hold it" for longer than is reasonable. my public school kindergartener has a bathroom right there in his classroom. he can go as often as the mood strikes him. if he couldn't, i too would raise holy hell.

[cottonwood]

"why not simply keep track of bathroom uses? give the student a booklet where the teacher marks the bathroom use? then after each quartr, address the use, and see if rules need to be made. that way the child isn'T denied with a real need, but a teacher can see if the student is abusing bathrrom priveleges."

But how do you know what is real need and what is not, unless you are following them? And who gets to set the standard for what is "reasonable" bathroom use? Certainly not the people the rules are intended to control, I am guessing.

Besides that, how infantilizing to have to report to someone else on bathroom usage.

"on a personal note, i believe that i only used a school bathroom a total of about 3 times in middle school. i would go befroe and after school."

Yeah, me too. Not very healthy. But it was embarrassing to me to have to ask for permission, and the bathrooms were gross anyway.

[scrappingmom]

I've had the same problem in the school here, among others, like you cinn. i could write a book with venting. I"m writing a letter to the principle in general about my concerns/issues siting multiple sources to back my thinking and requesting a face to face meeting. Then i will follow it to the board, this is a district wide issue and i dont think i should stop at just allowing MY children to be safe and healthy.
My kids have also come home with stories of one teacher (fortunately NOT one of theirs) hitting a/several students, i witnessed it myself one day, i just have to find out who the teacher was, sun was shingin behind her and i couldnt see.
Also there is an older man, a volunteer, who yelled at my oldest 2(in the elementary) for walking their kindergarden sister to class. he informed them they had no right to and "its not like she could get lost and if she did she could come as him for help". This might be reasonable enough except that we recently learned that she was being molested by her biological dad so doesnt trust men besides my husband, understandably. I informed the school of this issue yet they STILL had the gall to try that! I was very proud of my oldest girl she stuck to her guns and informed him i'd given permission for them to walk her and if he wanted to cause problems to call me

the school also think that can INFORM me that they can change my childrens entire diet and force them to have dairy products at lunch, something that hasnt been done in this house in MY childrens lifetime and in 18 years for me.

their school is SSSOOOOOO going to love me

[mama_kass]

Cinnamon
Please keep us updated on what happens from this. If you make any head way please post. It might help another mama here with the same or a similar issue.

[jyurina]

I would go the route my mother used with rules of this ilk. She went to the doctor. I kid you not. Explain the situation to your ped. If he writes a doctors note and signs it that your child requires bathroom time when she needs to go they have to honor it. Then spread the word among the other parents. It is the stupidest rule I have heard of. The schools here use the SOAR points system as well. We are also surrounded by homeschoolers(we hs as well)

[Eman'smom]

2 passes a week per class? In an "average" school of 7 classes a day, that is 14 breaks a week, plus the scheduled break, and before school, after school, and in between classes. You'd be amazed at what kids can do during that 5 minute break. I think by middle school they can control their bodies enough to either know they will have to go in the next hour, or hold it for an hour.


Also it's not just the one kid using the bathroom, whether or not the kid has to ask to leave, or just leaves it disturbs the whole class, that is just a fact of life, even a small break disrupts the flow of the class, if every kid needed to go every class and even if each kid only upset the class for a minute that is quite a bit of disruption.

I'm not talking elem kids or kids with health issues, but I do think it's reasonable for a 14 year old to plan an hour in advance, and when they can't that is what the emergency passes are for.