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Kids playing with and wasting food + Meal and snack scheduling discussion - Page 9

post #161 of 432
mamawanabe you raised some interesting points. The genetics of all food disorders are not well understood. I completely agree that a person with a food disorder would have a very hard time knowing how to respond to a child's food habits, or to recognize real problems and find a way to address them.

I don't think any eating disorder exists in which the best solution is to impose external control. I think raising kids with the impression that they cannot have food that is available is a very common power struggle that can create unhealthy habits later. However I want to make it very clear that I don't think it necessarily explains a true eating disorder. Often in a family of 5, 4 kids are fine and one child is anorexic. Why that happens I am sure is much more complex than the issues we are talking about here.

I just want to add that it sounds like you might have had a yeast issue as a child. Eating sugar straight from the jar sounds like a very strong indication of systemic yeast.
post #162 of 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama
I think raising kids with the impression that they cannot have food that is available is a very common power struggle that can create unhealthy habits later.
And not doing so doesn't mean that your kids will have a healthy relationship to food and eating.

Like so much of what we do as parents, the reason for a parenting decision doesn't lie in the outcome as much as in the ethics of the reason itself. It is respectfull to allow a child to eat when s/he wants. Doing so is not going to mean that they will grow up with a healthly relationship to food, but it is still the right thing to do.
post #163 of 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie
I find this to be really sad and controlling. I don't think it does our children any favors, not does it promote attachment, to teach them that their hunger will only be satisfied on our schedule.

The whole point of nursing on demand, in relation to attachment parenting, is to show that mama will satisfy their needs on cue. This need doesn't change when they switch to solid foods.
Apparently you have entirely misunderstood and misinterpreted my statement.
I have never said nor implied that I teach them that their hunger will "only be satisfied on our schedule" however If I am offering my child a snack at 9:30 every single day, guess what, they will be hungry for a snack at almost precisely 9:30 every single day. The body is hungry at the times it is used to getting food.
My children have never been deprived of food when they are hungry. That part is just in your imagination. However they do not have free reign of the kitchen either. They do not NEED free reign of the kitchen in order to have full bellies.
And nobody "switches" to solid foods.(ok well maybe some do, I dont know) Solid foods are added to a diet of breastmilk. The diet of breastmilk continues at the same time as the diet of solid foods. And they continue until the breastmilk is no longer needed and the regular schedule of solid foods is also sufficient. But they are different and separate.
As food has to be prepared, I have to have some 'warning" before my children need it. The most predictable way for me to know when they are hungry before they ask for food is for me to offer it to them on a very regular basis.
So maybe it is so very sad that I offer my children food every couple of hours throughout the day. Maybe it is especially sad and controlling when i give them food at 9:30 whether they are hungry for it at that time or not.

But maybe it is the food that is being so darned stubborn. How DARE rice take a whole hour to cook! And how dare chicken be dangerous to eat raw. Because it is so emotionally damaging to have to wait to eat.
I'd rather my kids wait then stuff their faces with the kind of food that is availible for their immediate gratification (fruit snacks anyone?)
The absolute nerve of granola bars being so darned unhealthful!

Food does not equal love. And meals at regular meal times does not equal deprivation
post #164 of 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by johub
Apparently you have entirely misunderstood and misinterpreted my statement.
After reading your response I don't think I did.
Quote:
I have never said nor implied that I teach them that their hunger will "only be satisfied on our schedule" however If I am offering my child a snack at 9:30 every single day, guess what, they will be hungry for a snack at almost precisely 9:30 every single day. The body is hungry at the times it is used to getting food.
So if they aren't hungry at the scheduled snack time, do you give them food?

Quote:
However they do not have free reign of the kitchen either. They do not NEED free reign of the kitchen in order to have full bellies.
I think there's a wide range of possibilities between "free range of the kitchen" and "eati on a schedule"

Quote:
And nobody "switches" to solid foods.(ok well maybe some do, I dont know) Solid foods are added to a diet of breastmilk. The diet of breastmilk continues at the same time as the diet of solid foods. And they continue until the breastmilk is no longer needed and the regular schedule of solid foods is also sufficient
Semantics, but point taken. So the baby/toddler can breastfeed on demand, but can't have a snack on demand?
.
Quote:
As food has to be prepared, I have to have some 'warning" before my children need it. The most predictable way for me to know when they are hungry before they ask for food is for me to offer it to them on a very regular basis.
So maybe it is so very sad that I offer my children food every couple of hours throughout the day. Maybe it is especially sad and controlling when i give them food at 9:30 whether they are hungry for it at that time or not.

But maybe it is the food that is being so darned stubborn. How DARE rice take a whole hour to cook! And how dare chicken be dangerous to eat raw. Because it is so emotionally damaging to have to wait to eat.
I'd rather my kids wait then stuff their faces with the kind of food that is availible for their immediate gratification (fruit snacks anyone?)
The absolute nerve of granola bars being so darned unhealthful!
Well, now you're just being sarcastic. How does one answer this?
Quote:
Food does not equal love. And meals at regular meal times does not equal deprivation
And allowing a child to eat when they say they are hungry, and not just on a schedule, does not equal anarchy.
post #165 of 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama
Well there are two points here:

Food is readily available to most of our children and they absolutely know it.
There is no point in comparing them to starving children in another country.

The second point is that children enjoy finding, washing, and preparing foods when they are eager to eat them. So there is no reason to put them at odds with the process.
Nobody was referring to starving children in other countries. I was referring to the food I buy for my own children. In our house my children do not eat granola bars, pop tarts, fruit loops or fruit snacks. There is very little in my house that my children could obtain for themselves and prepare and eat without any help. My 3 year old does enjoy getting a cheese slice out of the fridge. But for the most part, food must be prepared and this involves cooking and knives which I think it is reasonable to assume that a child under the age of say 5 or 6 should not be doing alone. So if the child is too young to use a sharp knife or the stove, they do not NEED free access to the kitchen. It certainly would be EASIER for my children to obtain their own food and snacks if I let them eat junk. But I am not going to feel bad for having higher nutritional standards than that.
As for putting them "at odds with the process" I cannot see that preventing them from doing it alone when they are unable to do so puts them at odds with anything but the potential for mess and injury.



Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama
I don't know quite how to phrase this. It seems like you are saying the only reason you breastfed on demand was because no work was involved. Once feeding involved effort, you refused to do it unless you felt like it, and refused to teach your child how to do for themselves.

I am sorry if you meant this differently, but that is how it looked.
I do not know quite how to phrase this but, it seems to me like we werent discussing reasons for breastfeeding at all. As such there could have been nothing in my post which would give you clue to my reasons at all.

As far as "refusing to do it unless I felt like it". and "refusing to teach my child how to do for themselves"
Well, I dont know how I could possibly be "refusing to do it" when I have stated clearly that I am already preparng food for my children about 5 times every day. Obviously that is whether I feel like it or not.
In addition, keeping ones children out of the kitchen wihtout permission does not = refusing to teach them how to do for themselves.

Seriously how many of you let your 22 month olds use the gas stove alone?
How about your sharp knives?
They may be able to peel the lid off of a pudding cup. But I just dont have those in my home so I wouldnt know.
Meanwhile I will keep my gates closed when I cant be in there to supervise. FOr their safety and my sanity.
Joline
post #166 of 432
My List of Handy Dandy Snacks My Kids Can Help Themselves to Without Cooking, Cutting, or Otherwise Engaging in Dangerous Preparation:

cheese cubes, precut
carrot and celery sticks, precut and in a bowl of water
stoneyfield farm organic yogurt
organic raisins
organic crackers- storebought or homemade
apples, bananas, grapes, and other organic fruits
bread and spread (peanut butter, all fruit, etc)
rice cakes (we like the kind with tamari and sea weed)

There was an awesome thread a while back on a toddler snack tray a while back- let me see if I can find it!
post #167 of 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie
After reading your response I don't think I did.

So if they aren't hungry at the scheduled snack time, do you give them food?


I think there's a wide range of possibilities between "free range of the kitchen" and "eati on a schedule"


Semantics, but point taken. So the baby/toddler can breastfeed on demand, but can't have a snack on demand?
.

Well, now you're just being sarcastic. How does one answer this?

And allowing a child to eat when they say they are hungry, and not just on a schedule, does not equal anarchy.
But I ask you. At what point did you ever get the idea that I would refuse to feed my child if he was hungry? (unless for example dinner was almost ready)
That is somethign you inferred and imagined.
I have never stated that to be the case.
I give my children breakfast when they get up, a snack at around 9:30, lunch around noon, snack when they wake up, dinner at about six.
That is a pretty regular schedule I admit.
But did you EVER see me say anythign that implies I would never give them a snack in between should they ask? You appear to be imagining that because I give my children meals and snacks at scheduled times that I am therefore at some point telling them that they cannot have food when they are truly hungry. Nothing can be further from the truth.
It has happenned on occasion that my children have asked for food when I wasnt about to give it to them anyway. And should those occasions arise, I would offer them something. It just so happens that this is a very rare occurrence. But they don't need free access of the kitchen to get it.
But I have three toddlers to feed. If I just sat on my butt and waited till they each individually told me they were hungry and what they wanted a few different things woudl happen.
1. They would be even hungrier (and unhappier) because they would have to wait while I prepare the food because I did not anticipate their hunger.
2. I could possibly be preparing 15 different meals at 15 different times. Which in my house WOULD be anarchy and a very inefficent use of my time.

Am I being sarcastic? Yes a bit. It is a little upsetting to state somethign straightforward and have someone quote me as if I had said something entirely different.
Joline
post #168 of 432
Quote:
Food does not equal love. And meals at regular meal times does not equal deprivation
Food does not equal love. Who said it did?

No, scheduled meals aren't deprivation. But I don't think scheduled food, in the sense that available food is restricted and hunger controlled, is attachment parenting, and since that is what we are here to discuss, that is the point I am making.

Quote:
Nobody was referring to starving children in other countries. I was referring to the food I buy for my own children.
Instead of preparing food five times a day, you could prepare it once, a tray in the morning, of the foods they liked, and they could snack when they were hungry. Surely a food like fruit or cheese does not require much prep.

Quote:
If I am offering my child a snack at 9:30 every single day, guess what, they will be hungry for a snack at almost precisely 9:30 every single day. The body is hungry at the times it is used to getting food.
I'd like to see you prove that Leave foods they like within reach, let them know you don't care if they eat it or not, and continue to feed them by the clock. I have a feeling they will disprove your theory very quickly. I am not making light of your efforts in the kitchen. I am challenging your reasoning here. You cannot convince me that your children are never hungry outside of your schedule, when you have subtley or overtly discouraged them from eating at any other time.

Quote:
it seems to me like we werent discussing reasons for breastfeeding at all. As such there could have been nothing in my post which would give you clue to my reasons at all.
The only reason for breastfeeding on demand, as you seemed to state, was convenience, and within the context of ap, there are other reasons. If you had other reasons, I would like to hear them.

Quote:
Seriously how many of you let your 22 month olds use the gas stove alone?
We already discussed that at length, so I don't know why you are asking the same question that pages (I think) 6 and 7 discussed in detail?
post #169 of 432
Quote:
And not doing so doesn't mean that your kids will have a healthy relationship to food and eating.
Nothing you do as a parent will guarantee an outcome, and much of what we do is based on basic beliefs about respect of another person, and isn't done to "ensure" a long term result. I completely agree.

There is a great deal of discussion in forums here about the long term benefits of good food relationships that may result from nursing on demand, as opposed to scheduled feedings. I am not going to go into it here, but I point it out because this idea is not "mine" or something I brought to the discussion of demand feeding. It's a benefit that is often discussed here, and is relevant in this thread.
post #170 of 432
OK, couldn't find the thread but it was so awesome I had saved the list!
Quote:
The 8 compartment tray normally contains:
Baby Carrots
Red seedless Grapes
Pineapple
Korean Pear cut-up
unsalted prezetels
Whole grain crackers
pieces of Swiss cheese
peanut butter or almond butter
sunflower seeds
dried fruit (w/out the sugar and chemicals)
raisins (same vein as above)
cherry tomatoes
dates
rice cakes
olives
unsweetened carob chips
orange sections
berries
snap peas
almonds and cashews
dried apple rings
frozen veggies
popcorn
figs
organic cereals
occasional veggie sticks with hummus
Homemade granola
puffed rice/millet (or kamut/wheat)
Blueberries
Beans (dd loves beans, lol)
baby spinach leaves
apple pieces
pumpkin seeds (shelled)
sprouted almonds (peeled)
- Edamame (cooked & shelled)
- Nori (strips to chew on)
- Rice Cakes (ones you can cook up with leftover rice and goodies) - I just make mini ones for snacks.
- dried apricots (so yummy and good for you to)
- Sweet Potato (cut into chunks, toss in oil, roast) - great to eat a room temp.
hard boiled eggs pieces
frozen blueberries
cooked pasta (in different shapes, my DS loves eating cold cooked rotini)
cucumber slices
hummus
pita wedges
Grapes (of course )
Nori
cooked cold whole wheat pasta wheels
apple slices
cucumber slices
homemade granola
carrots
plain popcorn
toast tortillas and give him apple sauce as a dip
healthy mini muffins (cranberries, oats, flax, sunflower seeds, carob, etc...)
roasted garbanzo beans (they taste better when they are just cool enough to eat but they are still okay later in the day) I like them roasted with a little olive oil and tamari soy sauce...for me and dh I add a little chili powder or hot sauce.
cut up homemade tortilla pizza
dried fruit
nuts
nut butters
whole grain crackers
cheeses
hard boiled egg
sushi rolls
homemade granola bars and muffins
olives (limited though, since so salty)
fruit
berries
yogurt
miso
carrot sticks
celery sticks
nori
blue corn chips
whole grain cereals (mostly for baby to snack on)
stuffed grape leaves
trail mix
smoothies
baked apples
seasoned & baked sweet potato fries
occassional popcorn
homemade fruit pops
cheese curds
canned green beans
fresh peas
rye crisp
meat or "meat" roll-ups
hummus and rice crackers
avacado slices
cheerios
banana pieces rolled in oatmeal
cooked beans
rice cakes
raisins
organic dried fruits
sunflower seeds
seed mixes
edamame (my son's faves)
boiled peanuts
all veggies cut up (bell peppers, carrots, tomatoes, etc)
pickles

Cut up toasted english muffins with cheese/soy cheese


For apples and vegetables, rinse them in a very diluted vinegar rinse, something like 1 tsp vinegar to a cup of water. I say diluted so that you won't get vinegar taste but you will get the benefits. That's what I did for our apples today and it really helped.
post #171 of 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama

There is a great deal of discussion in forums here about the long term benefits of good food relationships that may result from nursing on demand, as opposed to scheduled feedings. I am not going to go into it here, but I point it out because this idea is not "mine" or something I brought to the discussion of demand feeding. It's a benefit that is often discussed here, and is relevant in this thread.

Yea there is a lot of discussion on these forums about cause-effect. Mom did this, child turned out like this. Parents do have a huge influence on their kids, but this influence seems to be mostly about encoruging and discouraging natural tendencies. It is scary how much I take so much after a grandmother I never spent much time with.

I belive you parent in certain ways because it is right/respectful not because such parenting decisions will have a high(er) probablity of resulting in a child that is like X, Y or Z.
post #172 of 432
johub earlier you said

Quote:
And I dont think it does our children any favors to train their bodies to expect easy to eat foods to be availible at all times.
I think that is where you gave the impression that training for scheduled feeding was necessary.

Johub if you live in America, food is available to most of us, in excess, all the time. We are literally bombarded with the message to eat-eat-EAT.

I agree with mamawanabe that letting a child eat when the are hungry is primarily right because it is a respect issue. But there is a lot of discussion within attachment parenting of broader benefits to raising children to eat when they are hungry, not by the clock. The general idea is that eating by the clock desensitizes children to their own body signals, and teaches them to rely on external cues to eat. And long term, there are so many external cues, that this can make self control difficult. Obviously this is not *fact*,but it's discussed here enough that I think it's valid to question someone who says here they think it's wrong for a child to eat whenever they are hungry (or imply it).
post #173 of 432
[QUOTE=heartmama]Food does not equal love. Who said it did?[QUOTE]

You may not have. But there is an underlying thread that not having food readily availible at all times to a small child is somehow emotionally damaging as if it were a deprivation of love.
It is only an observation that perhaps people who have issues with food equalling love might be more concerned about any imagined deprivation felt by their child.

[QUOTE=heartmama]No, scheduled meals aren't deprivation. But I don't think scheduled food, in the sense that available food is restricted and hunger controlled, is attachment parenting, and since that is what we are here to discuss, that is the point I am making. [QUOTE]

See here is where the whole argument falls apart. YOu are describing scheduled meals in a way that I do not. WHen I say I "schedule meals" I do not mean that "availible food is restricted and hunger is controlled"
So perhaps we are arguing semantics here as well. I neither restrict food nor control hunger. So apparently we are not so much in disagreement after all.



[QUOTE=heartmama]Instead of preparing food five times a day, you could prepare it once, a tray in the morning, of the foods they liked, and they could snack when they were hungry. Surely a food like fruit or cheese does not require much prep.[QUOTE]

And so I could But even so. I woudl be picking the time at which I prepare the food and then it is offered after it is finished. It is a larger amount. But really the difference is again in semantics. So if I prepare a "snack tray" as you say after breakfast is cleaned up, and I put it down when I am done. Still the time the food is offeredis dependant on me. WHen I have finished preparing it. Which is really absolutely no different than if I set out different foods 5 times a day. And still has no more relation to their hunger than a scheduled 9:30 snack.



[QUOTE=heartmama]I'd like to see you prove that Leave foods they like within reach, let them know you don't care if they eat it or not, and continue to feed them by the clock. I have a feeling they will disprove your theory very quickly. I am not making light of your efforts in the kitchen. I am challenging your reasoning here. You cannot convince me that your children are never hungry outside of your schedule, when you have subtley or overtly discouraged them from eating at any other time. .[QUOTE]

Try it on yourself. Eat something every single day at 3pm for a week. Then dont. Your stomach will growl at 3pm. No need to waste your time reading up on circadian rhythms. It is not my theory it is really a simple biological process that is pretty easy to read up on.
So what do you do when the cheese pieces get dried out? The apple slices turn brown and the child no longer wants them?
You have a nice theory, but I really have no objection of serving my children fresh food every few hours. In addition. Their favorite response to havnig more food than they need at any given snack time is to disperse it all over the play room.
You assume that because I choose to feed my children on a regular schedule that I cant have tried the snack tray etc. . .
It was more mess and waste than it was worth.

I have no interest in convincing you that my children are never hungry outside the schedule. I do not even claim it to be true. And when they are they can eat something.
And If feeding them healthy foods frequently and regularly "subtly or overtly" discourages them from eating at any other time (because they arent hungry), I cannot see it to be a bad thing.



[QUOTE=heartmama]The only reason for breastfeeding on demand, as you seemed to state, was convenience, and within the context of ap, there are other reasons. If you had other reasons, I would like to hear them..[QUOTE]

I do not recall ever discussing my reasons for breastfeeding on demand. However since you ask I will tell you.
1. it is how the body is designed. My milk supply is determined by thefrequency of nursing.
2. Babies have very tiny tummies adn they are unique human beings who know when they are hungry and they deserve to be respected.
3. cryign is a late indicator of hunger. A baby who is nursed at the first sign of hunger never has to get all worked up, he can stay happy and satisfied.
4. its fun. Cuddle and nurse most of the day in the early months.
5. And of course all of the health organizations including WHO and AAP as well as the LLL all endorse cue feeding as ideal. (but this is my last reason because I was a cue feeder before I ever heard of them LOL)

Joline
post #174 of 432
Quote:
I belive you parent in certain ways because it is right/respectful not because such parenting decisions will have a high(er) probablity of resulting in a child that is like X, Y or Z.
I definitely agree. But that is rarely enough to persuade anyone to ap People like to know ap is right for the long term too.
post #175 of 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama

Instead of preparing food five times a day, you could prepare it once, a tray in the morning, of the foods they liked, and they could snack when they were hungry. Surely a food like fruit or cheese does not require much prep.



This is what I did with my daughter, and we have absolutely no issues around food and control. Even though she is only three, Laura will see me making dinner, ask what it is, and then say "okay, I'll wait", if she likes it. Of course, I get the "is it ready yet?" question about a zillion times, but that's okay.

My point is that I don't have to tell her to wait for dinner. She does it on her own.

I had a friend who strictly controlled her children's food intake, with specific snack and meal times, and I found it very upsetting. It just seems so wrong to me to force kids to ask for food. And when her children came to my house, they would gobble down every single thing in Laura's tray because they had no idea how to control themselves in the face of unlimited food. Very sad, I think.
post #176 of 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama
johub earlier you said



I think that is where you gave the impression that training for scheduled feeding was necessary.

Johub if you live in America, food is available to most of us, in excess, all the time. We are literally bombarded with the message to eat-eat-EAT.
Oooh. I am trying to not train them to eat JUNK FOOD. WHich is the type of food that is easy to eat and readily availible. I guess everyone thought I was meaning already prepared food that MOM prepared. But because we were discussing foods taht children can obtain in the kitchen themselves. I was talking about what types of foods kids are most able to get on their own. Which is the kind of food I do not want them to be in the habit of eating.
I in no way meant to infer that we need to train them to eat at a strict schedule. But that it is a good idea to not train them to graze on fruit snacks and chips and the kind of foods that it is "easy" for children to obtain for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama
I agree with mamawanabe that letting a child eat when the are hungry is primarily right because it is a respect issue. But there is a lot of discussion within attachment parenting of broader benefits to raising children to eat when they are hungry, not by the clock. The general idea is that eating by the clock desensitizes children to their own body signals, and teaches them to rely on external cues to eat. And long term, there are so many external cues, that this can make self control difficult. Obviously this is not *fact*,but it's discussed here enough that I think it's valid to question someone who says here they think it's wrong for a child to eat whenever they are hungry (or imply it).
I think I see. If anybody has interpreted the quote above that I believe it is wrong for a child to eat whenver they are hungry I wish to at this time apologise. That is not what I ever meant. And i do not believe that for a minute.

I also think self regulation is extremely important. I dont even believe in spoon feeding, except when it cannot be helped. I want my children to control their own food intake from the very beginning.
We all just have different means by which we do this.
post #177 of 432
Johub please see my last post to you. You may not see the impression your first post gave, but your comment about having to contain your own hunger when you cooked, and the quoted comment about children needing training away from dependency on available food, is very different than your last post.

I am not sure what you are looking for here, or why you seem so irritated. If you are feeding your children whenever they ask for food, then your first post seemed to be a statement against that, and thus your last post seems equally unclear.

I will wait until you clarify this, before giving another detailed reply Either your children are free to eat whenever they are hungry, or they are not. It really doesn't matter what that looks like. The details are not as important as the child having access to available food whenever they want it. If they have that access and still like to have mom prepare snacks, great. If that is all your meant, fine. But that is not what you started out saying.
post #178 of 432
I am with Joline. No one here ever said they don't feed their kids when they are hungry. And I hate when ppl post that I or others are showing less then GD because sometimes the mommy makes the rules, it's a fact we do, it's what kind of rules and how you use them that matters. So the statement that I am less then gentle with my kids because they have to ask for a snakc is just not true. My kids eat when they are hungry, stop when they are full and never have to beg for food, and Joline never said that hers did either.

Annettemarie, the list of snacks you posted was thoughtful but not necessary. No one here asked for a list of appropriate food nor did they need it. We never said we don't know what kind of snacks to serve just that we like to know when the kids are eating them.
post #179 of 432
Johub we cross posted, sorry.

Your last post was much clearer. Thanks for taking the time to explain your early statements.
post #180 of 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by johub

I also think self regulation is extremely important. I dont even believe in spoon feeding, except when it cannot be helped. I want my children to control their own food intake from the very beginning.
We all just have different means by which we do this.

:
Just wanted to second that. I have issues with food due to my mother making me eat too large portions every time, even if I didn't like something. While visiting her this past week she got very angry at me for not forcing my boys to eat something she made that they didn't like and also for not forcing them to eat everything on their plate. In general I think we all get too large of a portion, so I feel it is very important to let my kids eat when they want and stop when they feel full, even if that means they want something else an hour later.
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