To those who have done nothing about their child's cavities - Page 2

[bleurae]

any can be pulled. my sons front 4 are out, they were beaking off when we did it. teeth before incisors do not require spacers, after them do is what I was told and have read. good luck, with everything. The big C is a hard one, I had thyroid cancer at 19, I cannot imagine going through it with a child, the fear would be devastating.
my thoughts are with you

[zjandosmom]

From someone who has already dealt with the decay issue I thought I would chime in. First- so so so sorry you are all going through this. I know it is only teeth, but you feel awful and as though it is your fault. I still feel guilty even though I know I did nothing to cause it. At 18m my ds had a sedative and 3 root canals, 3 crowns, and 4 sealants. Followed by 1 more root canal and crown and 1 more filling several months later. I never night weaned and my dentist wasn't really concerned about it but did rec rinsing his mouth with water after. I did have an eye dropped I kept by the bed to drop in a bit of water after he fell asleep. My son's teeth came in with brown spots on them....I feel sure something happened in-utereo. The one thing I would be careful of is decay is an infection and infections can spread. My son had caries on two teeth and it then spread to two others. I would just be very careful and extra vigilant with the wait-and-see approach. It is so hard and I really feel for you mamas. I am so paranoid about my sons teeth now.....
Good luck,
Kathy

[bubbysmom]

his incisors are chipped really badly and need crowns. and he has about 4 cavities. when i asked if the fillings had mercury the dentist thought i was nuts for asking.
sadly, there is only one in network peds dentist and we are so broke because of my breast cancer visits (gas, parking and co-pays). so i just don't know what to do about his teeth.

[toraji]

My heart goes out to all of you suffering through this! It is so emotionally wrecking to see your baby's teeth deteriorating like this, and to be faced with such major possibilities like GA or sedation. My dd had rampant decay at about 18 months and we went through major hell getting them fixed.

What we did to stop the decay was a MAJOR diet change. We switched to a Nourishing Traditions style diet except with the addition of mountains of vegetables. Literally mountains, both raw and cooked, and also in smoothies, cold veggie blender soups, every place we could get them in. Also cod liver oil, molecularly distilled to remove contaminants. Multi-mineral supplements (synthetic vitamins are suspect), pounded into powder and added to food since no kids multi-minerals exist that we know of. That made a major difference in slowing down the decay. Then we did topical fluoride treatments to kill the rest of the decay. You can do a fluoride toothpaste in teeny tiny amounts (grain of rice size) as often as possible during the day, lik 7x. Either brushed, or rubbed on with a finger. Once the decay turns black, then the cavity is dead.

The idea of caries as infectious disease is totally ridiculous. Good hygiene makes a difference to a point, but dental caries is completely diet based (except for cases of pregnancy antibiotic use).

If the decay is not hurting the child, you may have a shot to kill the cavities with fluoride treatment until they are old enough to sit still willingly for the dentist. See http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=282442 for more info on arresting decay with fluoride/decay color.

But if it is to the point where there is obvious pain, then I'd recommend going to the pediatric dentist ASAP.

The combination of radical diet change and topical fluoride will hopefully stop the decay for some of you. Best of luck to you all!

[liam's mom]

I am frustrated that they say it is "completely preventable". It isn't. My sons teeth came through his gums with erosion already on them.

two of my son's teeth did, too.

[zjandosmom]

The idea of caries as infectious disease is totally ridiculous. Good hygiene makes a difference to a point, but dental caries is completely diet based (except for cases of pregnancy antibiotic use)I am quoting Toraji because I find this statement untrue and very upsetting. Caries are a bacterial infection and diet is NOT the only cause. Many of us have spoken of our children's teeth erupting with decay already on them. My ds had decay on the teeth before he ever even tasted a solid. Please dont' make people feel any worse than they already do. Saying it is strictly diet implies the fault is that of the parent only. We feel guilty enough.....don't add more especially with false information. Sorry- but I am tired of misinformation and guilt regarding this topic.

bubbysmom- Wow-your plate is so full right now. My heart goes out to you and your family. Wish I could help.

[bleurae]

I did the flouride treatments form before solids as well. We had to wait until he was 13 months just to have someone remove them without GA. I may have had anti-biotics when pregnant but I know plenty of women who have had them without it. Also if it was diet based why so many families have one child with them and the rest without.
I have to agree with zjandosmom in saying that the remarks about diet are not only unfounded, but hurtful. I also think some have no idea what it can be like, a little decay with some spots is one thing, my sons teeth started breaking in the course of 3 months until they were broke off at the gumline. His latest tooth went from great to breakage in a matter of weeks. This is not something rubbing some flouride on would stop, but I tried over and over in vain for those months while waiting for a dental referral and a doctor who wouldn't put him to sleep.

[kimmysue2]

I think its from genes. I have one cavities thanks to braces, my husband has TONS and lots of missing teeth because he nor his parents took care of them and by the time I came into his life it was horrid. Right now there is about 8000 more worth of work to save and fill in holes in my husband month.

Upsettingly for me our son got his dads teeth. I was so sure I was brushing them faithfully but around 2ish I saw the cavities. He has 6, 3 of which were filled by four of us holding him down (horrid experense) BUT saver then GA in my opinion. I have been using a electric brush but it is still hard to use it long enough to get everything clean. I did purchase the evil flouride and use a drop on a q-tip once a month. He has not gotten any more cavities and I hope now that he is 3.5 he will be able to sit still better and have them filled. I do talk to him about it every night in hopes he will be able to get the other three cavities filled.

[JaneS]

For all who think it is genes, you might be interested in the research of the dentist Weston Price.

In visiting many different races and ethnic groups across the globe, comparing those who ate a native diet vs. those who ate a modern diet: cavities are from the lack of proper nutrition not genetics.

http://www.mercola.com//forms/nutrit...generation.htm

www.westonaprice.org

[zjandosmom]

JaneS- very interesting reading. My pediatric dentist has said they are seeing a large increase in young children with tooth decay. I really feel it has to be some type of environmental thing. We eat pretty healthy here and oddly enough all the foods that Dr says to avoid we do. My first 2 children are almost5 and almost 7 and neither have had any cavities. Ds3 has had horrible problems which 1st appeared when his teeth erupted! I have tried researching and asking dentists, doctors, nutritionists, etc what I can do during pregnancy to insure healthy teeth and no one can give me an answer. I read once that candida had been linked to tooth decay and oddly enough my ENTIRE 3rd pregnancy I had a yeast infection (yuck). Once the babe was born and I never had another one. I wonder if that constant exposure to yeast and treatments had something to do with it. I don't think I will ever have an answer. I feel horribly guilty that my son has had to go through so much with his teeth, but we just do the best we can. I try not to cringe whenever he eats anything I feel converts to sugar! It isn't realistic to say he can never try ice cream or an occassional cookie, etc. We just encourage water after eating and brushing is non-negotionable. I have rambled! Sorry.

[toraji]

Originally Posted by zjandosmom

I am quoting Toraji because I find this statement untrue and very upsetting. Caries are a bacterial infection and diet is NOT the only cause. Many of us have spoken of our children's teeth erupting with decay already on them. My ds had decay on the teeth before he ever even tasted a solid. Please dont' make people feel any worse than they already do. Saying it is strictly diet implies the fault is that of the parent only. We feel guilty enough.....don't add more especially with false information. Sorry- but I am tired of misinformation and guilt regarding this topic.

I did not mean to make other people feel guilty, I was sharing the knowledge that I obtained after my DD developed rampant decay in the hopes that someone reading it could change their diet and environment in time. How many people talk about prenatal nutrition and antibiotic use, and how much it can affect baby's developing teeth? Enamel forms in the womb, and that is why teeth can erupt with malformed or missing enamel and decay. And that is also why baby teeth can decay only with breastmilk, which is what happened to my DD. I went through months and months of mama guilt, plus the added stress of dealing with the "vegan traitor" aftereffects of changing my diet.

I have seen personally and heard from friends online how much of a difference diet change made in their DC's rampant decay. I believe it to be a big factor in stopping my DD's decay, as well as fixing mysterious health problems in both DH and I (major brain fog going away, improving poor circulation and poor healing). We are all trained to think "Just eat the 4 food groups, just eat 5 a day, low fat, margarine" bull pucky when it is poor diet that is killing us all.

If caries were a bacterial infection, why don't dentists just prescribe routine antibiotics and be done with it? In fact, on this thread uccomama posted "Dr Marc Harmon, a dentist, testified before the Los Angeles County Medical Milk Commission, saying that his medical education trained him to blame disease and decay on bacteria and virus. But the genocide of microbes has not reduced dental decay any more than it has reduced disease in general. Dr Harmon concluded that the war against microbes is futile in eradicating disease." http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=180439

As for different children having different decay patterns (or no decay) the first child born is usually the most robust. This child will usually be the strongest and most resistant to tooth decay unless prenatal nutrition was deficient (which was my case). The pregnancy and lactation will drain mama of nutrients and unless the mama takes care to eat high-nutrient foods to replenish, then the next child will suffer the effects. With each progressive pregnancy and lactation each child will get progressively weaker and so usually the last child born will have the most decay. This of course does not always pan out true, because of the effect of mama's diet before conception of each child and during their gestation. Also nutrient deficiencies can be passed on through the generations which is why it can look like a genetic component.

Candida would be indicative of poor digestive system, so it's not surprising that it would be linked to tooth decay. Poor absorption of nutrients would definitely have an impact on the body, but I don't think that the yeast would be the cause of decay, more like a symptom that something is wrong with the overall health of the body.

Thanks JaneS for posting about Dr. Price! That is exactly where I have gotten a lot of my info. It is inarguable evidence of the effect of diet on health. More info can be read about his findings online here, in this online review of the Price book http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0203...ppnf/PPNF.HTML and in chapter 5 of "How and When to be Your Own Doctor" by Isabelle Moser http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201...oser05ch5.html

I've said my peace, and I will go now. How I wish that I could have found this "misinformation" when I was struggling with my DD's decay!

[kiminsac]

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[zjandosmom]

kiminsac- good info, thanks for sharing. It is a difficult and complex problem. I really wish someone would do a comprehensive study and find out what exactly the problem is. My ds was 'diagnosed' with enamal hypoplasia.....not that that really means anything. We too eat a mostly organic diet, no soda, no juice,etc. I am very health conscious. It makes me so mad to see kids slurping down the sodas, bottles of juice, candy and no ill-effects on their teeth and my poor child has had extensive oral surgery at 19m and I am now "afraid" to let him try ice cream as all I can think is "sugar=cavities=more dental work".

Toraji-thanks for clarifiying your post. Much of your second post makes sense. I have been wondering and asking my health care providers what I can eat/supplement myself with during pregnancy to better insure healthy teeth. No one could give me an answer. Very frustrating. I do prefer a low-fat diet....can my lack of fat intake affect future teeth? My 1st ds was 2m premature.....good teeth?!

I wish there were some cut-and-dried answers, but there really don't seem to be. I am very happy with my ped. dentist, but he can't give me any of the "why" answers I crave. You can search the net, but can find any answer to support any theory you can come up with. I am 22wks pg with #4.....is this child's teeth doomed? Can I add something to my diet now to help "save" his/her teeth? That is a serious question and responses are VERY welcomed.

Thanks,
Kathy

[JaneS]

Kathy,

You might want to read Nourishing Traditions, the cookbook and nutritional guideline based on Weston Price's research. There's so much information there on nutritional research and how what we eat directly effects what kinds of bodies we build.
http://www.mercola.com/2003/mar/8/no...traditions.htm

It's not only what we don't eat (sugars, processed foods) but what we do eat: high vitamins and minerals and good quality food. And how effective our digestion is to assimilate the nutrients.

A low fat diet is deficient in Vitamin A and hampers the absorption of minerals. Also will influence the fat quality of your breastmilk. I also feel (and have read) that a low fat diet contributed to my yeast problems.

I can tell you what I would do: cod liver oil, coconut oil, bone broths, homemade kefir or yogurt, free range eggs and raw pasture fed dairy. All of those every day in addition to fresh fruits/veggies and antibiotic free meats.

www.rawmilk.org

[toraji]

My apologies for a somewhat cranky post last time...it was really late that night and I was not at my best. Hey, it's late tonight too but I have not had a chance to respond until now so I thought I should do so while I could.

Originally Posted by kiminsac

Toraji, if you think tooth decay has nothing to do with bacteria, why are you using fluoride? Do you think the fluoride is in some way inhibiting the bacteria?

Well the fluoride thing is a bit complicated. AFAIK, it does not really work by stopping the bacteria, it works by strengthening the enamel which makes it more resistant to acid attacks. Since my DD had such a poor start in life with poor enamel, we needed that advantage to fully beat the decay. With the radical diet change, the decay slowed dramatically to the point where I thought it had stopped, but when I visited the ped. dentist he said that it was still going albeit extremely slowly. So we did the fluoride so that we could finally stop it completely.

If we had been eating properly during pregnancy, I feel that we would not have had to resort to using fluoride. But being faced with the option of GA at the hospital or trying the fluoride method, we jumped on the latter option.

Here's a quote from Dr. Palmer's website (the dentist who is a big advocate of nursing not causing tooth decay):
"Factors other than infant feeding may also impact the development of caries. Torney found that maternal bereavement or stress, reduced intake of dairy products, illness, and antibiotic use during pregnancy were associated with increases in infant caries.11 " with the footnote 11 being Torney PH, Prolonged, On-Demand Breastfeeding and Dental Decay: An Investigation. Unpublished MDS Thesis.1992 Dublin.

Pubmed has some studies but they seem to be limited to tetracycline during pregnancy. Perhaps in some dental journals there may be some studies on antibiotic use during pregnancy?

It also makes me crazy about children who eat nothing but junk food but they did not have the same incredible rapidly disintegrating teeth that my DD had. The only thing I could think of was that the fortification of the packaged foods was enough to give them the edge over my DD, who was nourished in utero with organic whole foods. If you read Dr. Moser's chapter that I linked to above, she gives an excellent explanation of the "poor start" theory along with a primer on soil health and how it affects the consumer of produce grown on these soils. Even organic is not enough.

Kathy, ITA with JaneS's recommendations. My only difference is that I put an extremely high emphasis on fresh vegetables, ingested in any way possible, both raw and cooked, with something raw at every meal (whether it be veggie(preferably), fruit, or animal based). There is a good chance that you can make a difference as the enamel is supposedly forming in 3rd trimester. Good luck!

[zjandosmom]

Oh thanks so much for all the good info Tarija and janeS! I will ramp up my veggies and dairy. I did not know that about enamel and the 3rd trimester....I thought that when the toothbuds formed in the 1st trimester that was it and I was a bit nervous. I have had no issues with yeast this time so I do feel that my ph levels are "normal" this time and that helps peace of mind too.

Torija- I feel I must too say "sorry" as I think I jumped on you after your first post. I was feeling so heavy with guilt already and took it all personally. Thanks for not 'flaming' me in response!

I have gotten such good info here and I really appreciate it! Off to the farmers market!
Kathy

[Harry's Mom]

Ga

Hi All!

I've been lurking here around dental issues for a while. Hope you don't mind my butting in with some comments about our recent experience with a GA. My ds is 22 months old and just had 7 cavities filled and one tooth extracted under a general anasthetic. It was certainly scary for dh and I, but we didn't actually have any problems at all and I don't for a minute regret that we had it done because ds could have ended up in a lot of pain if we'd put it off. We night nurse and I don't want to stop but we get lots of conflicting feedback about whether it's played a role in our cavities' development. Two of ds' molars just never formed properly, although I had no problems, fevers, or antibiotics during my preg. Maybe the other cavities were worsened 'cause of my own poor dental hygiene and the fact that we share utensils, etc. How many new mom's have time to really brush our own teeth properly? But, that's water under the bridge.

As for the GA, ds is a very sensitive boy and he would never have been able to handle being awake for the treatment he required. The GA was the only option that sounded like it wouldn't be traumatic. We had to have the work done in a hospital 'cause ds has extra-large tonsils that could have obstructed his breathing. (They didn't, but we wanted to be in a setting where he would be as safe as possible in case of an emergency.) We have Kaiser, so I had to find a pediatric dentist with Kaiser privileges, but that made it cheaper 'cause we only had to pay for the dental work itself, not the anasthetic, etc. In the course of finding treatment, I talked with 4 anasthesiologists about the proceedure, their concerns about ds' tonsils, apnea history, snoring, and related stuff. We saw two earn-nose-throat specialists, two dentists, his pediatrician...etc. Everyone was very helpful, and talking to the anasthesiologists made a world of difference in our being comfortable with the proceedure. They were all informed, articulate, and understanding. In short, I wouldn't rule out doing a GA just cause it's a big scary thing. Sometimes it may really be the best option, less traumatic, and easier in the long run. DH and I could be with ds before surgery, and he was able to wake up in my arms. The Kaiser staff were all fantastic.

We were able to nurse until 4 hours before surgery, and the only rough part was telling ds he couldn't nurse for those last 4 hours and keeping him distracted once we got to the hospital. Since he's not a food-centered boy anyhow, it was ok. Now, his appetite is actually better than before!

I know we all want what's best for our little ones, and dental issues seem to be a really huge issue for lots of families. If we'd been able to find an alternative to having that molar extracted, we'd have jumped at it. As it is, ds may need orthodontics because the loss of the baby tooth will effect the placement of his adult teeth. I am sooooo glad we didn't put off treatment, especially since sometimes it takes months to get on a dentist's schedule once you commit to having the work done. Dental issues are scary for lots of reasons, but we need to keep the long-term picture in mind. I really encourage everyone not to just ignore cavities (unless they're really small) and to act on the side of insuring your babies' long-term health.

As for me, I'm gonna look for that xylitol gum asap, we are vigilant about brushing now, and I really appreciate all the tips on this thread.

Thanks and good luck!

[kimmysue2]

I ate very well while pregnant nor had any medication.
Also my son did not get cavities until he was 2ish.

I faithfully brushed his teeth but the dentist said I wasn't brushed well or long enough. I also can't tell if cavities are in the genes. My husband teeth are horrid (much better now that we are caring for them). I mean the night before we got married he had a tooth pulled.

How many new mom's have time to really brush properly?

Wow this is something that should be done no matter what.I make the time twice a day for my son. Teeth aren't something you can just leave to chance.

[zjandosmom]

I love my Sonicare! It allows me to be lazy by buzzing everytime I need to switch 'quadrants'! My dh has pretty bad teeth, but I make him stay on top of cleanings, etc. His mouth has been very expensive as we are taking care of things he should have YEARS ago!! What is it about men that they feel that taking care of their teeth is optional? Between dh and ds3 we have spent a small fortune in dental care this past year. Too bad dental insurance is not 100% like much of medical is.

When we had ds's work done I was able to find a dentist who used sedation. I was able to nurse ds until he was out cold. He slept through the procedure and for several hours after and bounced back pretty quickly. I am glad we had the work done and don't regret it at all. I am hyper vigilant with his teeth and take him in for rechecks at the slightest stain just to be sure. So far we seem to have taken care of the problem and I just hope that we are out of the woods for now. I rambled again..sorry!

[kiminsac]

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