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Anyone NOT gettting a Social Security Number for their children? - Page 7

post #121 of 205
I was thinking that to work in the US you needed a SS# to fill out the I-9 forms, but I just checked and it turns out you don't. And, as another poster pointed out, it's also not necessary for a passport. Doesn't seem like going without one would be all that bad- though I still think you should be sure to get a legal birth certificate.
post #122 of 205
SSN are not required for anything (to my knowledge) except the child tax break. I don't care for taking a tax break for making a decision for my child that he/she could make without any problems later in life. If you don't have one then there is another tax form to fill out when getting a job and you just have to get a TIN. There's no shirking on taxes going on and no reason for anyone to get upset about this issue. It doesn't hurt anyone except the parent who chooses it because of less money back from the government.

At least that's what I've gotten from this thread and from my research a year or so ago when dh and I decided we wouldn't get our dc a SSN.

They can't require something that's not mandatory to get in the first place and it says nothing about one's patriotism or love of country if one does or does not have a SSN. I have one and wish I didn't. I love my country for the land and the people here. Not necessarily for the government though I won't get into that now. My retirement plan is my children and Creator (who has always taken care of me) and I never plan on taking advantage of my SSN. Things may change and I may be glad I have one someday, but that's a "what if" and I choose not to live my life expecting the worst.

I am very happy that we have freedoms in this country (what few we have left) and that one of those freedoms is the freedom to choose whether or not we get our dc a SSN. You can still check the box that says "no" and therefore it is a viable option.

I also am a bit confused at the furor this thread caused in the beginning. Live and let live and don't judge others for their personal decisions... if it makes their lives harder, how does that impact anyone else? With a proper birth certificate/documentation it is no trouble for anyone to get a SSN later in life.

love and peace.
post #123 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic
As far as a retirement program your kids don't need, well... I don't agree with that at all. In fact, my mother, who is 64 years old LIVES off of her social security. She has no savings and this money is everything to her. I'm glad that you are wealthy enough to be able to thumb your nose at social security. We're not.

I pick my battles and SS isn't one of them. It does indeed personally irk me that people like my mother put in her dues for 50 years and because you have some issue with Big Brother, you don't. It's not just about you... you do, after all, live in a SOCIETY. As a consumer in this society, you have some things you don't like along with the benefits you do. All my opinion, and I rarely ever get into such online discussions, but this one just hit in the right place, I guess. I mean, my mother would be homeless without social security.
Ok, this is a warning, I am going to drudge up an old and oviously very hot topic. I do not hold conventional beliefs so what I am about to say may very likely piss off a whole lot of you...

Velochic, I am very sorry that your mother only lives off of her paltry SS check. Her life choices made it that way. No one is to blame here other than your mother. She CHOSE not to save for her future. So please tell me, how is it MY responsibility to pay for your mother's mistakes? Right now I am paying into a system that will not be around when I retire. Social security will be gone and will I get back the 6.5% I have paid over my lifetime? Of course not! So I am being robbed of my hard earned income to pay for your mother's mistakes. That 6.5% that is being stolen from me could have been my retirement fund. If I had that money available to me to invest as I see fit, by the time I retire, I would have alot more saved up than what the SS check would ever be able to provide for me. I am being robbed of my future to pay for other's mistakes.

You say that you just aren't wealthy enough to afford not having social security. Do you know who benefits the most from social security? Well look at it this way, who lives longer men or women? Women of course. Who lives longer rich people or poor people? Well rich people do since they can generally afford better care and nutrition. So, who is living the longest and benefiting the most from social security? Rich women. All the money that is being robbed from the poor is mostly benefiting the rich. That doesn't sound like the kind of system you want now is it? Also, what does being wealthy have to do with saving money? No one in my family is particularly wealthy, all of my grandparents live well off of their own savings. They put away a little bit at a time and by the time they retired, they had a conciderable sum to live comfortably on for the rest of their years. My dad, when my sister and I were born, was working at a minimum wage job. He worked there for the first 1/2 of my life. Even though money was very tight back then, he was still saving for both my sister and I to go to college AND he was saving for his retirement.

Some people suffer hardships in their lives and mabye life just didn't turn out the way they planned. Would I want to turn a cold shoulder to them and say "well too bad for you, you made too many mistakes"? Of course not, I am not a cold hearted person. I genuinely care about people and I don't like to see others suffer. So if there were a private orginazation that provided care to people who had suffered hardships in life and needed assistance, I would donate all I could afford in a heartbeat. Many others would do the same. That is how people work, we are charatible and caring. Many of us libertarians are accused of being cold hearted. It is acutally the opposite. We believe in the good in people. We trust others to care for those that need help. We don't rely on the government forcing people to care about one another, we know that people will do that of their own free will.
post #124 of 205
to those who said "well at least we don't have a national ID like some countries have"... Well guess what! We do now!!! It has just been passed through being called the "real ID act". It is expected to be implemented in May of 2008. They aren't clear yet what kind of information it will have on it, but some are concidering DNA samples among many other things. As it stands now, they can add whatever information they'd like to see on the card any time they like. So mabye it won't contain DNA data from the start. Well give it a year and it will. So it looks like the use of a SS number as an ID will finally be put to rest, no one will have to fight that battle again. Now we will have to fight something much more powerful. I am sure many of you were completly unaware that this happened. Seeing as many of you have stated that you don't mind being tracked by the government, I'm sure this is no big deal to you either. To people like me and the OP, this is a scary scary thing. I should not have to live every day of my life in fear of my government as I do now.

To the op, we still have not decided if we are going to get our daughter a SSN. We could really use the tax break, but to enroll our daughter in a failed system just for our benefit is cruel. For some reason people think it is hard to get a SSN. They must be delusional, the government WANTS you in their system! They will do anything they can to get you into the system. I applaud you for your strength in fighting for what you believe in. We need more people like you who will stand up and fight for our freedoms more than we need people who just say "get out if you don't like it".
post #125 of 205
One last thing, I promise!

Someone mentioned that most jobs won't pay cash. This has not been my experience, every job I've held except for one I was paid in cash with no taxes taken out. I can think of other people I know who only work in cash as well, tattoo artists, independant contractors for various jobs. As the owner of a small business I can choose to only let my clients pay in cash. I don't need a SSN to work. Sure, you may not be able to be a drone at a company without one, but I hope that my daugher wouldn't have to work at a place like that with or without a SSN.
post #126 of 205
I don't know . . . I think about getting out of the U.S. system almost daily. To me, it's as simple as packing up and moving to a remote part of Africa where my people are from. SS# or not, it's possible and I know a few folks who have. My humble opinion, if you want to live off the grid, get off the grid. If you're still on the grid, living in the U.S., there's certain things you must swallow or just spend lots of energy fighting tooth and nail. I got my son a SS# because it was important to me that he have a passport so we can travel/leave whenever we get ready or whenever it becomes necessary. I didn't know you could get a passport without it. Eventually, I'm going to get off this grid/fall of the face of the earth. But that's me. Maybe my children want to be all up on the grid. I guess it's best to give them that option. This thread has got me thinking.
post #127 of 205
We go to the food bank ect and a SS# is required for social services, so we have a SS# for both our kids.
post #128 of 205
In some states, maybe all a child has to have one before being allowed to attend public school. I know because my childs card waslsot and it was a big dealwith the school.
post #129 of 205
we already got our dd, we never would think not to...I think you need it for the parents taxes....someone may have mentioned , i don't have time to read all the posts.
post #130 of 205
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey228
One last thing, I promise!

Someone mentioned that most jobs won't pay cash. This has not been my experience, every job I've held except for one I was paid in cash with no taxes taken out. I can think of other people I know who only work in cash as well, tattoo artists, independant contractors for various jobs. As the owner of a small business I can choose to only let my clients pay in cash. I don't need a SSN to work. Sure, you may not be able to be a drone at a company without one, but I hope that my daugher wouldn't have to work at a place like that with or without a SSN.
I, too, have mainly been paid in cash for my jobs. In fact, being asked to pay taxes usually turns me off a job. $12/hour is fine, but if I have to pay taxes on that, it's just not enough. Now, this may not be a feasible option for some people, but I have certainly never had a problem securing a decently paying job without paying taxes.

-on another note-

I might add that is certainly not that I don't want to help people out. After Hurricane Katrina, we had 12 people and 11 of their pets living with my husband and me in our new house, free of rent. We did this out of sympathy for these families. No one had to confiscate a portion of my income to give to these families. Every dollar and hour of assistance was offered volunarily, out of kindness.
Had they demanded that we help by seizing my income forcibly (like the IRS does), that would have been theft, not charity at all.
post #131 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by rootzdawta
I don't know . . . I think about getting out of the U.S. system almost daily. To me, it's as simple as packing up and moving to a remote part of Africa where my people are from. SS# or not, it's possible and I know a few folks who have. My humble opinion, if you want to live off the grid, get off the grid. If you're still on the grid, living in the U.S., there's certain things you must swallow or just spend lots of energy fighting tooth and nail. I got my son a SS# because it was important to me that he have a passport so we can travel/leave whenever we get ready or whenever it becomes necessary. I didn't know you could get a passport without it. Eventually, I'm going to get off this grid/fall of the face of the earth. But that's me. Maybe my children want to be all up on the grid. I guess it's best to give them that option. This thread has got me thinking.
This seems to be everyone's opinion. They either say "if you don't like it get out" or "I want to just live off the grid, it's the only way to be left alone". I would rather stand and fight for what I believe in, rather than just oblige to the government or run away from my problems. I want to live in society. Society is NOT the government!!! Everyone here seems to think that society=government, if you don't like the government, you shouldn't be living in "our" society. It used to be that you only had to deal with the government if you did something wrong, but now EVERYONE deals with the government EVERY DAY. The government has taken over our society. They have become a serpent slowly squeezing the life out of every one of it's citizens. It has reduced people to thoughts of either "I have to conform, it's too powerful to fight" or "I have to leave, it's too powerful to fight". I personally refuse to take either one of these options. And yes I will be raising my kids with the same beliefs, just as a christian parent would raise their kids with their beliefs. Many of you accused the OP of only thinking about herself and using her kids to fight her battle. NO, she is just raising her children with her beliefs. If she does not want her child automatically enrolled in the system, she should not only be able to do that, ALL of you should support her whether you agree with her position or not. You would expect her to support YOUR decision to raise your kids as you see fit as well. I am not saying that you have to support her choice, you have every right to disagree with her not wanting to get her children a SSN, but you should support her RIGHT to choose if you expect the same right. We here are all in the same position, we face criticisim and sometimes prosecution because we don't agree with what everyone else thinks about raising kids. Why are you doing the same thing that people do to you that you don't like? The thing about freedom is that if you want freedom for youself, you MUST be willing to respect the fact that others have the same freedoms even if you don't like what they are doing. We can not pick and choose who gets what freedoms. You can't say "well 59% of the population agrees with this, that means the other 41% must either comply or face prosection". What if they decided one day that you must give birth in a hospital and 59% of the population agreed? You would be outraged that your RIGHT to do as you wish with your body and your child was just robbed from you. Rights should not be taken away from the minority by the majority. And we as mostly minorities in the parenting world should support one another's right to choose whether or not we agree with that choice because one day, it may be your choice that they're comming after. Complying and running away are not options. If you want freedom for yourself, you must stand and fight for those freedoms.
post #132 of 205
Quote:
This seems to be everyone's opinion. They either say "if you don't like it get out" or "I want to just live off the grid, it's the only way to be left alone". I would rather stand and fight for what I believe in, rather than just oblige to the government or run away from my problems. I want to live in society. Society is NOT the government!!! Everyone here seems to think that society=government, if you don't like the government, you shouldn't be living in "our" society. It used to be that you only had to deal with the government if you did something wrong, but now EVERYONE deals with the government EVERY DAY. The government has taken over our society. They have become a serpent slowly squeezing the life out of every one of it's citizens. It has reduced people to thoughts of either "I have to conform, it's too powerful to fight" or "I have to leave, it's too powerful to fight". I personally refuse to take either one of these options. And yes I will be raising my kids with the same beliefs, just as a christian parent would raise their kids with their beliefs. Many of you accused the OP of only thinking about herself and using her kids to fight her battle. NO, she is just raising her children with her beliefs. If she does not want her child automatically enrolled in the system, she should not only be able to do that, ALL of you should support her whether you agree with her position or not. You would expect her to support YOUR decision to raise your kids as you see fit as well. I am not saying that you have to support her choice, you have every right to disagree with her not wanting to get her children a SSN, but you should support her RIGHT to choose if you expect the same right. We here are all in the same position, we face criticisim and sometimes prosecution because we don't agree with what everyone else thinks about raising kids. Why are you doing the same thing that people do to you that you don't like? The thing about freedom is that if you want freedom for youself, you MUST be willing to respect the fact that others have the same freedoms even if you don't like what they are doing. We can not pick and choose who gets what freedoms. You can't say "well 59% of the population agrees with this, that means the other 41% must either comply or face prosection". What if they decided one day that you must give birth in a hospital and 59% of the population agreed? You would be outraged that your RIGHT to do as you wish with your body and your child was just robbed from you. Rights should not be taken away from the minority by the majority. And we as mostly minorities in the parenting world should support one another's right to choose whether or not we agree with that choice because one day, it may be your choice that they're comming after. Complying and running away are not options. If you want freedom for yourself, you must stand and fight for those freedoms.
I competely agree.
post #133 of 205

My dd doesn't have an ss#

I have read this entire thread before responding. For those of you who have not, here is a wrap-up of the cans and can'ts without a SS#.
CAN:
Refuse to participate in the SS payout
Be a citizen
Get a Driver's License
Vote
Get a Passport
Get the Child Tax Credit (see top of pg. 3 for the "how to")
Work
Get an apartment
Get into college

CAN'T:
Refuse to pay the SS tax
take advantage of most welfare programs
PERHAPS CAN'T:
Get a credit card
Get a loan/mortgage, etc.
My dh and I chose not to get a SS# for our dd when she was born. Getting a SS# is the only contract you can legally force someone else into without their permission. It IS a contract. You cannot get out of it once you are in without renouncing citizenship and becoming an ex-pat. My dh and I both have one but we felt it was important for our dd to make her own choice someday. It's not living off the grid...we don't anyway. I'm in the legal profession and my dh holds a federal license for his business. It's simply agreeing with the following post:

In the words of one member:
"What I have a problem with is using the number for everything from tax deductions to student ID numbers. it is being used improperly and dangerously."

Most of my family was annihilated in Europe during WWII. They were identifiable and it was a police state. My ideal is to no longer be traceable. I am working toward that goal. Yes that goal means not being indebted to anyone (wouldn't that be great), not having my personal info of any kind floating around. In addition, I am a citizen of my state, my state is a member of a confederation. Our country was founded as, and still is, a republic...not a democracy (it is nowhere in our founding documents and it is not how we actually do things) and yet we are moving toward being a totally socialist society. I find it supremely sad that there are so many people who take such little personal responsibility for themselves that they rely on the government to take care of them in old age and, up until recently, our bankruptcy courts to discharge huge amounts of debt they were too irresponsible to not accumulate in many instances.

As a responsible member of society, I will be living off my own retirement fund, painstakingly saved over the course of my life. As a responsible member of society, I will be self insured so the government doesn't have to do it for me. As a responsible member of society, I will care for my elders rather than be annoyed that they can't care for themselves and foist them off on the government and its programs. As a responsible member of society, I will teach my children to do the same.

I will miss the 6.5% I pay into the system but I know it won't be there in 30 years. I will consider it a tax on our stupidity for thinking it will. However, I will be damned if I am going to allow my children to believe looking to the government is the answer. Personal responsibility is.
Side note: The reason the Amish don't have one, (aside from it being against their religion) is in part because they, as a community, have a commitment to caring for each other through their family and their church. No one in their community goes hungry or without medical care. Perhaps we should take them as an example and for those who need it, look to our smallest unit (the family) first, then to our churches/temples, neighborhoods, towns, state, etc. Not first to our federal government.
post #134 of 205
Right on ! We just had DD 2 months ago and im not getting her one. I will wait until she ie older to let her decide. I had my purse stolen and my ss card it was very easy to get a new one in fact eerily easy and to tell you the truth I wish I didnt have one the person racked up 12,000 dollars in debt that im trying to fix as we speak. As far as my babe we pay cash for doctor visits so no red tape with insurance. SS#s can be harmful if you examine it a little more.
post #135 of 205
It is something I considered but right now the way we are living we really needed one more than not. (we fell into some rough times and needed state aid with food and cash for a little while so we needed to have them for our kids) DH and I do hope that at some point in the future we will be able to live self sufficient. His dream is a solar powered home and mine is a big ol veggie garden etc.... Even so , I would wanrt to be sure no problems come for my child. If mine needed to get one as an adult thjough, it is a fairly simple process. As far as the tax refund thing, I would forgo it and not give two hoots. I think you as the parent must make the choices YOU think are right as long as you are leaving an open door for your child as an adult. Isnt that the point of parenting alternativly? So we can raise children who are not little robots, who actually think for themselves. So if my child grows up not wanting a SS# or wanting one, I know he came to that choice through his own will power and thoughts.
Sorry you are being attacked about this. Seems silly to take it so personally. Its not liek you are taking away THEIr ss#.
I got the same slack doing a unassisted homebirth....people telling me I was risking the life of my child. Or unschooling. People telling me my kids would fall way behind and not get into college. Etc..... You do what is right for YOUR family and forget about the rest of the world. Isnt that the point? I find I am having to learn to shrug alot off recently the more off the beaten path I venture.
Tonia
post #136 of 205
Well, since this topic has been bumped:

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryliz75
To the OP....
No government is perfect, there are things that all of us disagree with, but in order to enjoy the freedoms of the USA, compared to the lack of in other countries, then you have to become a part of our system. You should not expect to live in the USA and enjoy the freedoms of our great country at no cost to you. We have become a part of the system and in turn enjoy our freedoms, what make you or anyone else that make the same choices as you so special?
This is seriously one of the most insular comments I've seen on MDC. I'm not sure you understood how that would read to someone outside the US when you wrote it. It's fine to be a flag waver, but seriously, have you ever read the constitution? Are you aware that the US Constitution is a set of rights given to the government by the people and not a set of freedoms people are allowed to have by the government?

And please don't compare the US to the rest of the world with smug superiority. The violation of civil liberties that takes places routinely every day in the US is nauseating. You have very little right to privacy any more, and your right to due process is seriously being eroded. I've lived in the UK and Ireland for a decade, and let me tell you, I've been way more free in both countries than I ever was in the US.
post #137 of 205
Oh, you said that well Hells_Bell.
post #138 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey228
Velochic, I am very sorry that your mother only lives off of her paltry SS check. Her life choices made it that way. No one is to blame here other than your mother. She CHOSE not to save for her future.
Bailey228, this is an outrageous statement. You know nothing about Velochic's mother's situation. Has it ever ocurred to you that there are people who literally cannot afford to save money for their retirement? That there are people whose entire income go to rent, food and keeping their kids clothed? That there are people who are alone in old age, with no relatives to take them in?

Exactly how do you propose that such elderly people survive? Your arrogance is breathtaking.
post #139 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa P
My ideal is to no longer be traceable. I am working toward that goal. Yes that goal means not being indebted to anyone (wouldn't that be great), not having my personal info of any kind floating around.
I respect that you don't want to be part of any system. Perhaps you do or do not realize... every time you log on to MDC, make a connection on the internet, you are identifiying yourself and sending out your personal information. If you really don't want to be traceable, you shouldn't be using the internet. Each time you obtain and IP address to get on the internet, your provider knows that you are online. If you really want to be untraceable, you have to give up technology altogether. That's the tough part - it's all in, or all out, but there's no in between.

If you really live off the grid, you won't be here, right?
post #140 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinemama
Bailey228, this is an outrageous statement. You know nothing about Velochic's mother's situation. Has it ever ocurred to you that there are people who literally cannot afford to save money for their retirement? That there are people whose entire income go to rent, food and keeping their kids clothed? That there are people who are alone in old age, with no relatives to take them in?

Exactly how do you propose that such elderly people survive? Your arrogance is breathtaking.

Thank you, zinemama.
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