Anyone NOT gettting a Social Security Number for their children? - Page 2

[zinemama]

To the op: Could you provide maybe a short list of reasons why you don't want to get a ssn for your child? I'm seeing a lot of reasons why it's a crucial thing to have (and I agree with them), but I haven't seen you state your reasoning behind not getting one (other than that bit about the "slave state"), and I'm very curious.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by carolynrosa

What's presumptuous is to assume that my child will WANT to be hooked into the grid from birth in the first place. It's a lot easier to hook yourself in than it is to ever get yourself out. At least she has a choice this way -- how could you possibly consider it presumptuous to give her the choice and not presumptuous to plug her in for life?

I think it's amazing that even in an open, alternative group such as this, that simply asking advice about something that some may disagree with gets you attacked by people afraid to stand up to the government they claim to dislike, even when they know the government is wrong.

You sound like any other fear mongering government minion out there trying to make people feel guilty for standing up for themselves. Would you DARE raise a Christian child in a muslim-extremist world? How DARE you use your child to make a religious point in a place that shuns christianity?!! How irresponsible and selfish of you to be so presumptuous! How do you know that your child will even WANT to be Christian?

Back-off, thank you very much.

I'm not here to make enemies. If I wanted to do that I'd ask the Social Security Administration.

First of all, you're not "attacked". It's called a difference of opinion. I've been here for 3 years and sometimes I get challenged too. It makes you a better person/parent if you let it. On to the topic at hand...

No, it is harder to plug in than to un-plug. And it is getting harder by the day. A pp said that she got an SSN for dc and doesn't disclose it unless it is absolutely necessary. To me, that's a good compromise that doesn't include your child in your political fight. I got an SSN late in life and it was not easy, even in the '70's. I can guarantee that if future administrations maintain similar policies, it will become almost impossible to get the single most important item of citizenship... an SSN. Your daughter will be considered an alien, and most likely, a threat to this paranoid government. Fight the fight where it makes a difference... don't make your daughter suffer. And on the other note of your message...


Would you DARE raise a Christian child in a muslim-extremist world?

Honey... you DO NOT EVEN WANT TO GO THERE with me!!! This makes me madder than hell!! You want a fight on your hands.... let's have at it. Our family is Armenian, dh raised in Turkey. You haven't even the SLIGHTEST clue about ethnic genocide or growing up Christian in a Muslim world (otherwise you would not have made your inane comparison). Families butchered before your eyes, refugees, families torn apart. You are an ignorant person to even equivocate such a thing as getting SSN to ethnic cleansing.

(In case you're not inclined to know or look it up... google for Armenian Genocide and then come back here and make your comparisons.)

[carolynrosa]

*sigh*
The Social Security program is a Ponzi scheme. Just because it's government run, does not make it a good idea. As a voluntary 'retirement' plan, I am choosing not to enroll my child. She can always join the bandwagon later, if she chooses.
At best, SS is a raw deal. At worst, it's the perfect way to track and control people in a Nazi Police-State. Either way, I don't plan to allow my child to be taken advantage of or branded with this ID number. Luckily, it's still my choice.

Thanks for all the 'advice.' I guess next time I'll remember not to post about things that aren't 'conventional' enough.

Funny, but if I had asked for advice about, say, breastfeeding past 18 months, I imgaine I would have had a lot more support, or at least less criticism. Or even non-vaxing. I've never seen 'open minds' respond so negatively to something they obviously don't know much about.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

BTW, about the SSN being required for the Child Tax Credit:

I'm fairly certain that you can get a Tax Identification Number (TIN) for your child if you want to claim him/her on your taxes. You can contact the IRS to find out the procedure.

The IRS website I referenced says this is only available for children adopted outside the country while waiting for legal citizenship. I thought that would be possible as well.

[velochic]

*sigh*

People back off when their views are not met with 100% approval.

Stick around Carolyn... you'll find people that agree and disagree. I see that you're new, and don't let this thread put you off. It's hard to have people disagree, but it will happen more than once during your tenure here.

(I still think that SSN has nothing to do with thwarting the gov't. )

[mollyeilis]

Originally Posted by Cheshire

I got the letter from Lexis Nexis that my information may have been hacked...

Is it possible for you to explain that, even in a PM, to me? My hubby got a job with them *right* after that happened, and no one is talking about it, so we don't know what happened. As far as he can tell, his company doesn't have info like that to be let loose, so to speak, so we're really curious!


Back on topic, sort of.

carolynrosa, I am very familiar with the reasons people don't do SSNs and don't file taxes and all that. Became familiar while doing my time in chiropractic school.

A really great way to get people to hear you is to simply explain things, not use phrases like "Ponzi scheme" which few people can define or have even heard of, or wild comparisons, or really any explanation that sounds even wilder than the initial idea of not getting a SSN.

The off-grid stuff you are doing can be presented in a really good and understandable way, but presenting as though people already know what you are talking about is not that way. Explaining from the beginning helps.

As for me, I considered it, but ultimately I don't really care if people are watching me. I'm not doing anything illegal under current laws, well, except maybe speeding every so often, and if people want to watch me, so be it. I also had to give up all ideas of being unwatched when I found out my new stepdad worked (and still contracts with) for the CIA, and that my mom would be working there, too. Her last job with them was with the counterterrorist group; alas she was diagnosed with leukemia and then died exactly 1.5 years before the Towers...since it had been her job/specialty to monitor "chatter" in the, well, area where the guys came from, but no one had been in her computer or at her desk from mid-December to mid-March, I can't help or stop wondering what crucial information was lost with her, and what could have been different if she hadn't died. She had a really unique way of putting things together, and if I let myself think about it too much I'll go crazy...

ANYWAY that's a topic for another time! Point is, most of my family works for government now, nothing I can do about that, so me trying to hide myself or my family is pretty laughable. Very few degrees of separation, and all that.

[carolynrosa]

The first thing I want to wrap my head around here is that I'm not being attacked... hmm...

Anyway, I think your emotions are keeping you from recognizing my point. The good news is, you made it for me. Thanks.

When I brought up raising a Christian child in an un-christian world, what I'm trying to say is that if you believe something is right, you have an obligation to raise your child according to your beliefs -- religious, political, or otherwise. Regardless of how "hard" life will be for them, it is better to be right and hated for it than to duck and cower and go with the flow. Hence the analogy.

I do not plan on indoctrinating my child into what I believe is a corrupt, evil system. I agree that life with a ssn is easier, in some ways, but that's not the point. Of course it's easier. Hitler made it easy to get numbered if you were a Jew, and Bush is making it easy to get numbered and thrown into Gitmo. If you honestly believe that it is more difficult for an American citizen to get out of the system than it is to get in, there is no reason for me to continue this discussion with you. They couldn't make it any easier.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not looking for enemies here. I don't understand how people can get so upset when they hear someone else's honest opinions. We all have different backgrounds and different beliefs, and we all have reasons for our beliefs. If I'm wrong, show me how I'm wrong. Prove it -- don't just get "madder than hell" because you dislike what I have to say. There are people being slaughtered and killed all over the world. The one thing all of these people have in common is that they were killed by government. Our government has killed more innocent people in Iraq than Saddam ever did (between the sanctions and the war).

There is nothing evil or wrong with Civil Disobedience. As long as there are honest people out there who never recieved a SSN at birth, the government will have to continue to make exceptions for them. I thought I was asking informed people about this; that was my mistake. There are millions of Americans who do not pay income taxes at all. Look it up. The government wants you to fear them -- and most people do. But I don't. I was irresponsibly raised to believe that you should stand up for yourself and your beliefs. My presumptuous mother thought she should raise me based on her own beliefs, not the beliefs of the main stream. I'll tell her how I learned today that she was wrong.

Regards

[oceanbaby]

You need to have a SSN to claim the child as a deduction. We just got a SSN for ds2 (he's a year old) last week to file our 2004 taxes.

For ds1, the insurance we had at the time mandated a SSN within 6 weeks in order to cover him. I probably could have fought them on it, but with a newborn and postpartum health issues I just wasn't up for it. I figure he's going to need one eventually anyway.

[carolynrosa]

mollyeilis --

Thanks for the kind words. I understand that my mistake was assuming people here had heard the arguments before. Luckily, no one knows where I live.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by carolynrosa

There is nothing evil or wrong with Civil Disobedience. As long as there are honest people out there who never recieved a SSN at birth, the government will have to continue to make exceptions for them.

I totally agree that there is nothing at all wrong with civil disobedience. I do think, though, that you'll find that the government isn't going to make many exceptions for people who don't have SSNs. When the government is not requiring a person's involvement in something, they generally do not have to make exceptions for people who opt out for religious, philosophical, etc. beliefs.

I thought I was asking informed people about this; that was my mistake. There are millions of Americans who do not pay income taxes at all. Look it up.

I'm pretty informed on the Constitution. My reading on the websites of people who claim taxes are unconstitutional tells me that they generally are not. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Truly. It's not often that I get the opportunity to hear directly from a person who believes this, as I'm mostly surrounded by people who study the Constitution for a living and have yet to find a Constitutional scholar who holds this belief.

You're certainly not the only person here who was raised to think for yourself. You're just picking a different battle than some of us here do. That doesn't mean that your battle is any less important than ours or that, because we haven't chosen your battle, we are all sheep being led around by our noses.

[oceanbaby]

Okay, just read the rest of the thread.

Isn't having a birth certificate being "hooked into the grid?"

Is it THIS government you don't want to be hooked into, or any government? I am anti-Big Brother, but not enough to move. My parents were anti-US enough to move to Canada when I was a baby.

I prefer it here (US). And I personally don't really care who is watching me. I figure SSN or not, they'll find out what they want to, so I might as well pick and choose what works for me. I'll get a SSN, but I'm not vaccinating. I'll pay my property taxes, but I most likely won't be enrolling my child in school.

My parents spent most of their lives avoiding government (for no reason other than principal), and I can say that it made my life pretty difficult, especially as a teenager. I hated all the lying and hiding and crapola. It kind of turned me into a real rules follower as a young adult, and I have spent the last 10 years trying to find a better balance.

But, unlike spanking, not getting a SSN doesn't hurt a child, so I can honeslty say, to each their own.

[NiteNicole]

I don't understand how people can get so upset when they hear someone else's honest opinions. We all have different backgrounds and different beliefs, and we all have reasons for our beliefs. If I'm wrong, show me how I'm wrong. Prove it -- don't just get "madder than hell" because you dislike what I have to say.

But you're the one who seems upset and "madder than hell" - people are just asking questions, no one has attacked or even seemed anything other than curious.

Perhaps you've been burned on this before and are reading tone that isn't intended or even there?

I admit I'm still not clear on exactly why you don't want an SSN. Other than not being "plugged in" - but then I'm not sure why being "plugged in" is a bad thing.

Honest questions.

[TiredX2]

carolynrosa---

We considered not getting our children a SS# but ended up doing so. I do not like the choices it removes from them (such as living off the grid). It is, IMO, much harder to remove yourself from the system than to get into the system given you keep good records.

Our reasons:

Tax deduction. When DD was born we were eligible for the EIC and chose the $.

Passport availability.

I really don't like that we are making this political/economic choice for our child that really only applies to them when they are an adult, but thats what we ended up doing.

A lot of places ask for social security numbers you do NOT need to give them to (even universities can give you a student ID # not associated w/your SS#). For example, my kids are going to camp in another week or so without the space for SS# filled in. The camp alleges that it is for in case of an emergency so they could get medical attention They already have our insurance info, so I know that is untrue.

I do not believe taxes are illegal or unconstituational, but I realize that others feel differently. I really respect people who live off the grid and make less than they would need to be taxed. I do NOT respect people who simply commit tax evasion. That, IMO, does not qualify as civil disobediance since the majority of people who take that route do to save $ rather than for political principal. Additionally, the job my DH has would not allow him to not pay taxes and that is definately the job he wants (it would not matter as much for some people).

While Social Security was not originally fully a Ponzi Scheme, IMO, not only has it become one, it has become ripe for graft. Not only are the people at the top of the pyramid taking from the people on the bottom, with them having little to no hope of recouping but people "outside" the scheme altogether (other federal programs) are also helping themselves to the pot.

I would like to add one more thing and I hope it does not offend you. Your first post seemed to be asking for opinions in a *questioning* manner, but the tone of your other posts made the first seem like kind of a set up. If, in the future, you want only positive reactions you can increase your luck by putting something like ****SUPPORT ONLY**** in the title. You'll still get some negative opinions, but not as much. And while I knew all your terms I do not see how you could (and I am not saying you do) consider them *value neutral* terms which tends to be inciteful.

[BlueStateMama]

Huh I was actually just troubleshooting/thinking out loud about the implications of not having a social security number. I thought you were sort of bouncing the idea off of the group as something you were considering. I agree that putting "support only" in your title would keep others with any input that didn't mesh with your opinion out of the thread...

[kerc]

Can someone define Ponzi scheme for me? I'm trying to follow this arguement and want to be sure I have a precise definition.


To answer the original poster's question - no I never considered it. I knew that I believe in paying taxes because I use the services that those taxes pay for. I drive my car on federal highways, attend a state university, am an employee of the state of minnesota, etc. I guess I might feel differently if I lived totally off the grid, but overall even though my candidate isn't in the white house I think the representative democracy is doing ok. Sure there are things I don't agree with, but I think sometimes having an understanding of the history of the system/law helps to understand how it got to be that way. Is there all kinds of dumb politics and handshaking that goes on? yes, but I don't know of a country with a better system for me.

[Dragonfly]

For you, kerc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

[DesireeH]

I do not plan on indoctrinating my child into what I believe is a corrupt, evil system.

I dont think you are doing this if you do decide to get a ss#. We have one for our son. I am having a homebirth this time and we have to go apply for it within one year of her birth. I guess I shouldnt say "HAVE to" but in order to avoid problems, the midwife suggests doing it within a year.

I also do not want to be part of this corrupt government (or any of man's governments, not just US) but I think you can still avoid all the things you want while still having a SS# for jobs, taxes, insurance, credit, travelling, etc.

Example: we dont vax either but we also dont go to the doctor unless absolutely needed, we dont sign vaccine waivers from the office, and we would refuse to be part of the national vaccine registry. We also are well informed on vaccination laws and our rights to refuse so if we ever do run into a problem we can fight it and win.

We also would never take part in the military or anything of that sort but we have our ducks in a row for that too should a draft or anything ever come up (or if all else fails go to jail before we ever took any part!) My brothers were sent post cards telling them they had to register for selective service or whatnot at 18 y/o and it freaked my mom out (they also do not believe in military/war) but they just put their name in and if they ever got drafted they would just refuse (and try to use conscientous objector). We dont vote and you dont have to register for that either but I am still glad I have a SS# for jobs, taxes, etc. I do agree sometimes it would be nice to not have anyone track us but they still can.......for example.......here in California you can still get jury duty or whatever based on DMV records. There will be always be some way to track you unless you have no car, no insurance, no ownership of home, no anything..........ykwim?

I also agree to each their own but I am glad I have one.

[Mackenzie]

Originally Posted by carolynrosa

I have looked into the future, that's why I'm doing this.

If she wants a SSN in the future, it's a very simple process. The government makes it VERY easy to sign up for their slave numbers, believe me.

Is no one here aware of how our SSN are being used as a national ID these days? It's even required for a driver's licence- even though that is illegal.

When the Social Security Administration first introduced the SSN, they promised it would not even be used as an ID number.... now it's used specifically as an ID number everywhere!

Not in every state. But unfortunately that is about to change here as well. I am quite upset.

[kerc]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

For you, kerc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

thanks.

[GranoLLLy-girl]

In regards to SS#s and being issued a license to drive:
in Virginia, you can get what's called a T number on your license, and then you won't have to have your SS# on your license or ID, in case of theft or otherwise. When you write a check anywhere in Virginia and the clerk asks to see your license, they look at the date of expiration and the T number or SS#. I've never been hassled by anyone regarding this information.
I don't know if that helps or not.

Also, I didn't get a SS# until I was about nine or ten. I'll have to ask my mom (who is still alive) what she did until that time when it came to filling out taxes when claiming the kids as dependents. She didn't get me a number before that because it wasn't really necessary (I assume). Anyway, I am in my 40s--and I know things have changed since that time.