Anthony Wolf, The Secret of Parenting

[johub]

In one of the punishment threads the book The Secret of Parenting was recommended to me by one of the posters.
I have now finished it and I have to say I really liked it.
(my last post I had just started it)
I highly recommend this book for anybody who wants to get away from punishment but doesnt think that parents have no business trying to "manipulate' their children.
As to the original discussion.
I have learned that WOlf describes punishment very differently than myself or other authors I have read.
While I disagreed with his statement in the introduction that punishment equals the purposeful inflictoin of suffering. As I read further he advocated most of the things that I do that I call punishment. But he just doesnt consider it to be the same.
Removing the means of misbehavior to him is just "grounding from" (the playstation, the phone whatever) in my reportoire.
SOme think that any parent controlled consequence (even "logical") is equal to punishment. This author does not take that line.

Anyway, I liked this book and I agree with most of it.
I do not think it goes against AP necessarily, however I do think that some AP parents with children of particularly sensitive temperaments would find that this method is not really AP for them. (make any sense?)

I really appreciate the recommendation I am having dh read it next.
I am also recommending it to my API Chapter.

Joline

[Fuamami]

Johub, I like the Secret of Parenting, too, I just re-read it.

One thing I noticed when I read it this time, though, is that Wolf advises telling your children, "I don't like it when you do blah-blah-blah." He thinks the main reason kids behave is for parental approval, which is stronger than we realize, right?

However, does that set you up for a power struggle? Wouldn't it be better to talk about why someone might not do blah-blah-blah? Or how it's harmful? It just seems like telling my dd that "I" didn't like how she acted would raise her hackles.

Any input on this? How about Maya44, I know you're a Wolf disciple.

Thanks!

[The4OfUs]

I read this book recently too on the recommendation of maya44 (thanks!), and also ejoyed it - I am using it to bridge the gap between my own gentle feelings towards parenting, and DH's views, as he was brought up in a threaten/punish/spank type household (my upbringing was on the other hand, very gentle). I have already seen DH using some of the things we've talked about with our 18-month old, and it thrills me like you cannot imagine. I think he *WANTS* to be gentle and nonpunitive, he just never really thought about how to do it or where to start.

I do still have a few thoughts I'm processing from the book that I'm not entirely sure of, but overall I enjoyed the read (found myself nodding my head a lot), and agree that it's not necessarily hard core AP, but it is miles away from mainstream. I've even talked it up to a few of my close girlfriends who are pretty mainstream, and they all seem interested (to break the cycle of how they were raised, too ) - one even borrowed it from the library and is reading it now.

I think this book appeals to those who do indeed respect their children, but don't necessarily consider them 'peers/equals', as I believe was discussed in another thread - but please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Overall, I like to think that our family is going to be a team, and DH and I will just be the co-captains, but not the "coach" (which seems to me more authoritarian that I would like us to be, versus "authoritative" - one previous post on another thread mentioned "learned advisor" - I like that a lot).

I also just got "Playful Parenting" since it has been recommended so many times here - I'm only a few chapters into it, but am very pleased to find out that so far, I am apparently a very playful parent already! I laughed out loud at the one statement Cohen made when talking about if your child calls you "stupid", go to the extreme and pretend you can't tell the difference between them and a pillow, and start calling the pillow by their name and talking to it - he then says (paraphrasing) that sometimes it takes "a village idiot" to raise a child - :LOL I loved that line...

I think between the two books, DH and I will find our groove...he's pretty goofy himself, so I think the playful parenting will come fairly easily to him, too.

I always find it interesting to read here on the forums about the broad range of parenting styles that fall under the spectrum of "GD", and have gained so much perspective on parenting from this forum - I didn't partcipate in several of the recent threads about punishment because I didn't really think I had much to add, but I read them with GREAT interest.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by natensarah

One thing I noticed when I read it this time, though, is that Wolf advises telling your children, "I don't like it when you do blah-blah-blah." He thinks the main reason kids behave is for parental approval, which is stronger than we realize, right?

However, does that set you up for a power struggle? Wouldn't it be better to talk about why someone might not do blah-blah-blah? Or how it's harmful? It just seems like telling my dd that "I" didn't like how she acted would raise her hackles.

Funny you should mention this - I cross posted with you....this is the one thing I'm still processing, only I'm seeing it as more of a guilt-trip type of thing (more than a power struggle), and want to guard against that. So, I'm trying to figure out how you go about making it more about being conscientious, kind, hoenst, etc. with good character, VERSUS - my approval or disapproval about things....like trying to be more matter of fact about things than, "I didn't like when you did (or didn't do) that." type of thing. That's my one reservation, I don't want to become a guilt-trippy mom, KWIM?

As natensarah said, any thoughts on this would be much appreciated!

[johub]

Originally Posted by natensarah

One thing I noticed when I read it this time, though, is that Wolf advises telling your children, "I don't like it when you do blah-blah-blah." He thinks the main reason kids behave is for parental approval, which is stronger than we realize, right?

However, does that set you up for a power struggle? Wouldn't it be better to talk about why someone might not do blah-blah-blah? Or how it's harmful? It just seems like telling my dd that "I" didn't like how she acted would raise her hackles.

Thanks!

Well I dont think he implies that we shouldnt tell him the real reason behind why we say "no" or "please do this" but that their primary motivation when they are young is our approval.
I think that kids want parental approval long before they can internalize other motivations. We teach them the whys. But we want them to be able to follow a simple direction or behave in an appropriate way before even they are capable of understanding those reasons.
For example. I dont know if even my 13 year old really understands why it bothers other people if she is loud and wild in a restaurant. If she doesnt break anything so what? SHe isnt hurting anything. The whole idea of wanting to eat in peace still has not really sunk in.
However she knows , and has known since she was a toddler that I expect certain behavior in restaurants. And she follows those guidelines even if she cant really have empathy for the others present who might not want to hear her latest rendition of her favorite song.

Maybe it can lead to some power struggles. I think that depends on the temperament of the child, and parent.
Some children will create a power struggle no matter what you do.
WIth my oldest the more I try to explain the real reason behind something. The more she tries to argue how that doesnt particularly apply to her or this situation etc. . .
Joline

[johub]

Originally Posted by donosmommy04

So, I'm trying to figure out how you go about making it more about being conscientious, kind, hoenst, etc. with good character, VERSUS - my approval or disapproval about things....like trying to be more matter of fact about things than, "I didn't like when you did (or didn't do) that." type of thing. That's my one reservation, I don't want to become a guilt-trippy mom, KWIM?

Well I think that our approval/disapproval is the litmus test children use to determine what kinds of things are kind/honest etc. . .
They look to us as in "is this ok?" all the time. Eventually they learn that it is ok because it is the conscientious thing to do , and that is why it pleases mom. And the final step is making a conscientious choice even if mom isnt around to see because she has taught you that those things are good.


I dont really like the whole guilt trip thing either. But I usually think that guilt trips involve not getting on with things. Not letting go when it is already over.
It isnt a guilt trip to say "I asked you to clean your bathroom and you didnt. SO I had to do it this time." But it IS a guilt trip if you dont leave it alone and you say it 50 times and huff and pout about it.
Kids should know when we disapprove of their behavior. But once we let them know it should be over. IT is just another form of torture to not let it go.

My only real point of disagreement is his reasons for just accepting a child who steadfastly refuses to obey etc. . .
He says if we let them know they have their own power, they will fight for it less.
HOwever like giving in to a tantrum. My fear is that it teaches a child that if they just hold out a little longer they will enevitibly get their way.
However it was a worthy point to be considered. Even if I am not entirely convinced.
Joline

[maya44]

Sorry, I have been away. Y'all know I would want to be a part of this thread!

As for the "I don't like it when..." statements a careful reading of Wolf's book shows that he does not advocate using this with great frequency and when he does it, to me, really makes sense.

Its more like "I asked you to pick up your toys. You did not. I had to do it. I don't like that. Next time I expect you to do it."

Said in a calm but serious voice this is not much of a gulit trip.

Telling you child "I had to do it and now I am very tired" or "I am very sad that you dont' listen to me" or some such would be too much of a guilt trip. But the simple statment to me does not seem minipulative at all to me.

Rather it is a statment of fact.

I just don't think this is overdoing it at all.

And johub, with your dd being the age she is I highly recomend that you read his other book "Get out of my life, but first could you drive me to the mall." Which may give you a very interestsing take on parenting a teen!

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by maya44

Its more like "I asked you to pick up your toys. You did not. I had to do it. I don't like that. Next time I expect you to do it."

Said in a calm but serious voice this is not much of a gulit trip.

Telling you child "I had to do it and now I am very tired" or "I am very sad that you dont' listen to me" or some such would be too much of a guilt trip. But the simple statment to me does not seem minipulative at all to me.

Originally Posted by johub

I dont really like the whole guilt trip thing either. But I usually think that guilt trips involve not getting on with things. Not letting go when it is already over.
It isnt a guilt trip to say "I asked you to clean your bathroom and you didnt. SO I had to do it this time." But it IS a guilt trip if you dont leave it alone and you say it 50 times and huff and pout about it.
Kids should know when we disapprove of their behavior. But once we let them know it should be over. IT is just another form of torture to not let it go.

Ah, OK - I see both of your points here.

A simple, calm "I didn't like that I had to do that" , and then drop it

versus

"it made mommy sad/tired/etc. because you didn't/did..." , which does probably induce more guilty feelings...that does make sense, now that I thik about it.


I think I can remember that distinction (Or save this thread to my computer when it's done so I won't forget! )

I've been through the book twice now, and think I will a third time before I make up a summary for DH to read through and reference (I know he would not read the whole book, but he will read a synopsis...I have had a hard time whittling it down, because so much of it was good - I have practically the whole thing highlighted - ha!).

Thanks, ladies for your input~

[johub]

I've seen the other book, before I ever heard of Wolf, I had seen the book at the bookstore.
Now that I have read The Secret of Parenting I am now more interested in the other book.
(before it was only one of a dozen or two books on parenting adolescents so I didnt pay much attention)
Joline

[maya44]

I do think that one thing that some of you have mentioned is important. This book can really bridge the gap between an AP mama and a DH who wants to punish.

Many very AP mama's who might not want to use these methods feel fairly comfortable with their DH using them.

And they consider them a far better means than anything else their DH's are willing to do.

DH's who are not AP tend to like this book very much!

[PikkuMyy]

I like that "stupid" example a lot! Here's one of my own from the other day:

I went with my student (6), his sister (5), and his mom to a big new playground in a park in the big city (read: new, unfamiliar place, with MANY children all running around and no gate/fence around it). He had to pee so his mom took him to the bathroom and while they were gone, sister decided she didn't want to stay in the location where mom had left us, but I said we needed to because otherwise they wouldn't be able to find us and might get worried. Sister did NOT like this at all, and whined, etc. and tried to go by herself to the other part. I walked calmly over and took her hand and brought her back to the first area. She then stamped her foot as we were talking, and I said something like "What are you doing with your foot? Is there a bug that you are trying to squash? Where is it?" and pretended to look all around the ground for the bug. She did it again a minute later and I did the same, looking through the sand for the ants. She laughed, I found a cool stone in the sand, and we ended up looking at the rocks, stones in the sand until mom came back.

[The4OfUs]

PikkuMyy, that is so great. You know, the more I read, the more all of this makes sense, and seems so right for me to do!

[johub]

Originally Posted by maya44

I do think that one thing that some of you have mentioned is important. This book can really bridge the gap between an AP mama and a DH who wants to punish.

Many very AP mama's who might not want to use these methods feel fairly comfortable with their DH using them.

And they consider them a far better means than anything else their DH's are willing to do.

DH's who are not AP tend to like this book very much!

I read the introduction aloud to my DH. HE is all over AP but he doesnt quite understand GD. He is convinced about not spanking but he has this underlying anxiety that our kids will be wild.
So I read him the introduction which I felt explained very well why children are less obedient today etc. . . and I felt that it justified my feelings that a 'reasonable amount" of obedience is enough etc. . .
And his response?
"Well maybe we ought to go back to beating kids. . ." Of course he was joking. (he loves to make me mad)
Joline