A Critical Review of Waldorf Resources - Page 3

[Rhonwyn]

And why should they repeat what is said elsewhere so well.

I always check out links. I am always interested in what a site feels is important to link to.

I see no conspiracy here.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Rhonwyn

And why should they repeat what is said elsewhere so well.

Um... because it's important?

I always check out links. I am always interested in what a site feels is important to link to.

Like commercial products, advertisments, pop-up ads?

I see no conspiracy here.

Pete

[ratlover]

So, anthroposophy doesn't have such a prominent place on the website as you think it deserves. Your whole point had been that it wasn't mentioned at all. Then that misinformation was built upon to imply that the school was hiding anthroposophy like a dirty secret:

Susquehanna Waldorf School one goes a step further. No mention of Anthroposophy AND no mention of Rudolf Steiner either. Parents looking for information are hard-pressed to find it here. Lots of pictures on both sites - kids having lots of fun and doing interesting projects. Oh well... perhaps the failure to mention Anthroposophy is just an oversight.

Now the bar has changed from needing to mention anthroposophy at all to needing to put it in a certain place on the websites and probably to give it quite a few paragraphs as well. It would be nice to put as much information on the school websites as possible (well, you wouldn't want to crowd the pages too much), but I don't think it's sinister to just give a link to anthroposophy without delving into it.
And as other posters have said, if you're going to be laying out $8,000-$10,0000 a year in tuition, you'll probably be doing a little research into Waldorf. We're in a parent-tot class, but before enrolling we stumbled upon the Waldorf Critics site as well as lots of others that mentioned anthroposophy with a simple internet search.
Janine

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ratlover

So, anthroposophy doesn't have such a prominent place on the website as you think it deserves. Your whole point had been that it wasn't mentioned at all. Then that misinformation was built upon to imply that the school was hiding anthroposophy like a dirty secret:

Now the bar has changed from needing to mention anthroposophy at all to needing to put it in a certain place on the websites and probably to give it quite a few paragraphs as well. It would be nice to put as much information on the school websites as possible (well, you wouldn't want to crowd the pages too much), but I don't think it's sinister to just give a link to anthroposophy without delving into it.
And as other posters have said, if you're going to be laying out $8,000-$10,0000 a year in tuition, you'll probably be doing a little research into Waldorf. We're in a parent-tot class, but before enrolling we stumbled upon the Waldorf Critics site as well as lots of others that mentioned anthroposophy with a simple internet search.
Janine

I'm not in debate mode - if someone doesn't agree with me, that's absolutely fine. I'm providing my viewpoint here. If anyone thinks linking to a site is enough to clue parents in that Anthroposophy and Waldorf are intertwined, that's fine - they have their answers.

Nobody says anyone has to agree with me. I'm not going to debate whether you or anyone else thinks this is pointless - I'm just pointing out the facts and letting people decide for themselves. The facts are the two sites don't mention Anthroposophy and one doesn't even mention Steiner. One provides a few links to sites that mention Anthroposophy among lots and lots of other positive reinforcement of Waldorf. Whether or not that's honest disclosure or intentional deception is up to everyone who reads this thread to decide for themselves.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion based on information they can see and read for themselves. I've provided links to the sites. People can read for themselves about these schools and what they disclose. There's no point in debating whether or how each individual uses the internet links what anyone expects parents to do when researching a school. I'm staying out of debates like these from now on. People can read for themselves.

Pete

[ratlover]

I'm not in debate mode - if someone doesn't agree with me, that's absolutely fine. I'm providing my viewpoint here.

Very admirable, but it is hard to resist debating with you when you post inflamatory statements about particular schools. Maybe put "support only" in your thread title?
Janine

[Rhonwyn]

Originally Posted by Pete

Um... because it's important?

Pete

The schools are talking about themselves and providing more information if someone wants it through links.

Originally Posted by Pete

Like commercial products, advertisments, pop-up ads?

Pete

Yes, if I am at someone's website, such as a school or something I am researching, then yes I check out the links. JCPenney or Amazon, then no.

Originally Posted by Pete

Pete

Now I think you are being snarky and I would appreciate it if you would remain civil.

[Rhonwyn]

Three local websites:

http://www.seattlewaldorf.org/waldorf.htm

http://www.brightwaterschool.org/about.htm
http://www.brightwaterschool.org/waldorf_curriculum.htm
http://www.brightwaterschool.org/waldorf_resources.htm

http://www.threecedars.org/programs/we.htm


Each of these schools often rely on parent time and energy to put these websites together so some have more information than others on Steiner and anthroposophy.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ratlover

Very admirable, but it is hard to resist debating with you when you post inflamatory statements about particular schools. Maybe put "support only" in your thread title?
Janine

If factual statements are inflamatory - I don't know what to do about it.

The schools in question make no statement about Anthroposophy. That's a fact. One makes no mention of Steiner. That's a fact. One has links to websites that do. That's a fact. Other schools are much more open about their connection to Anthroposophy. That's also a fact. People can decide for themselves. That may not be a fact but it is my hope anyway.

We currently have a moratorium on critical debat - so I'm observing this and posting only what I view as information. I'm sorry if some people don't like this information.

If you want to debate me on anything you believe to be inflamatory, I'll gladly accomodate you if and when the moratorium is lifted. Fair enough?

Pete

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Rhonwyn

Three local websites:

http://www.seattlewaldorf.org/waldorf.htm

http://www.brightwaterschool.org/about.htm
http://www.brightwaterschool.org/waldorf_curriculum.htm
http://www.brightwaterschool.org/waldorf_resources.htm

http://www.threecedars.org/programs/we.htm


Each of these schools often rely on parent time and energy to put these websites together so some have more information than others on Steiner and anthroposophy.

Funny, it's almost as if the parents are unaware that it's even in the school. :LOL

Pete

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Rhonwyn

Now I think you are being snarky and I would appreciate it if you would remain civil.

I always remain civil. It's just that some people interpret me in a very different way. I would appreciate it if they didn't.

Pete

[Rhonwyn]

Originally Posted by Pete

Funny, it's almost as if the parents are unaware that it's even in the school. :LOL

Pete

One of these schools is my children's school. I do not believe that parents are unaware. I just don't think they care. Our school, as well as least one other (we get their community info), often has parent information nights on anthroposophy, Waldorf curriculum, etc. A few people show up but not many.

Also, the teachers do parent education in the class meetings. Our Kindergarten teachers often talked about Steiner and anthroposophy and how they interpreted it and used it in the classroom.

We also have Sound Circle, an anthroposophical group, who does teacher training, eurythmy, etc. They are constantly publishing their offerings to the school community.

It is all there, if parents are interested.

[Rhonwyn]

Originally Posted by Pete

I always remain civil. It's just that some people interpret me in a very different way. I would appreciate it if they didn't.

Pete

Rolling your eyes, even with smilies, is not conducive to discussion.

Also, I would say that you are presenting facts and others are pointing out other interpretations of the facts. You choose to see them one way, others choose to see them in another light.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Rhonwyn

Also, I would say that you are presenting facts and others are pointing out other interpretations of the facts. You choose to see them one way, others choose to see them in another light.

Be my guest. It's an open thread - so far...

Pete

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Rhonwyn

One of these schools is my children's school. I do not believe that parents are unaware. I just don't think they care. Our school, as well as least one other (we get their community info), often has parent information nights on anthroposophy, Waldorf curriculum, etc. A few people show up but not many.

Also, the teachers do parent education in the class meetings. Our Kindergarten teachers often talked about Steiner and anthroposophy and how they interpreted it and used it in the classroom.

We also have Sound Circle, an anthroposophical group, who does teacher training, eurythmy, etc. They are constantly publishing their offerings to the school community.

It is all there, if parents are interested.

Waldorf websites are often a prospective parent's first exposure to Waldorf. It's not "all there" for prospective parents.

Pete

[ratlover]

If factual statements are inflamatory - I don't know what to do about it.
The schools in question make no statement about Anthroposophy. That's a fact. One makes no mention of Steiner. That's a fact. One has links to websites that do. That's a fact. Other schools are much more open about their connection to Anthroposophy. That's also a fact. People can decide for themselves. That may not be a fact but it is my hope anyway.

I think the misunderstanding comes from your first statement:

Susquehanna Waldorf School one goes a step further. No mention of Anthroposophy AND no mention of Rudolf Steiner either.

I think most people would understand that statement to mean that anthroposophy wasn't found AT ALL on the site, when it was actually on the links page. But I'm assuming that you wanted the web site to have something written up about anthroposophy. It just wasn't clear from what you'd written.

We currently have a moratorium on critical debat - so I'm observing this and posting only what I view as information. I'm sorry if some people don't like this information.

And I don't think that the nature of this thread (outing schools) is as innocuous as you do, and so there will surely be debating (until it gets locked).
Janine

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ratlover

I think most people would understand that statement to mean that anthroposophy wasn't found AT ALL on the site, when it was actually on the links page.

I think that this school is linking to sites that, among other things, include information about Anthroposophy without explaining that Anthroposophy (or Steiner) has a relation to Waldorf or even mentioning the words Steiner or Anthroposophy on their website AT ALL (except for those links) is something parents should be aware of and look for in their own reviews and research of Waldorf schools.

But I'm assuming that you wanted the web site to have something written up about anthroposophy. It just wasn't clear from what you'd written.

Even a one-liner - Rudolf Steiner based Waldorf Education on his world philosophy, Anthroposophy. That would at least give the parents two words they know they need to Google - Steiner and Anthroposophy. If a parent is made to understand that there is a philosophy connected with a school (big red flag for many parents) then they know they should look into the philosophy.

And I don't think that the nature of this thread (outing schools) is as innocuous as you do, and so there will surely be debating (until it gets locked).

Well, at least the agenda is clear now.

Pete

[Rhonwyn]

Originally Posted by Pete

Waldorf websites are often a prospective parent's first exposure to Waldorf. It's not "all there" for prospective parents.

Pete

Your opinion. Not mine. Our website is more informative than it was when I was looking and I found all the answers I needed to get started. I knew nothing about Waldorf before my child was 4 and we were looking for preschools. I looked at Montessori and Waldorf thoroughly and then checked out schools. I then asked more questions at all 4 of the preschools I looked at. Both Waldorf schools were very helpful and friendly. One Montessori school was while the other was cold and awful. The point is, the websites were jump off points and each of them helped me find the information I wanted and needed.

Sometimes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

[Rhonwyn]

Montessori is a philosophy on child learning. Many schools are founded on differing philosophies. I guess I don't understand why that word would be a red flag. Even public school operate under a philosophy that came from German state schools.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Rhonwyn

Your opinion. Not mine.

Let's just leave it right there for today. OK?

Pete

[Pete]

This is a rare opportunity for us here - that on this Critical Review of Waldorf Resources thread - we have the actual author of one of the largest and arguably most often linked Waldorf resource websites. I cannot pass this up without a discussion of your website.

Originally Posted by WaldorfAnswers

The site of Waldorf Answers, that is advertised widely on the net gives a clear short overview of the basic philosophy of Waldorf education as this comes out of anthroposophy (http://www.waldorfanswers.org/Waldorf.htm)

As the OP of this thread, I am obligated to question the credibility of Waldorf Answers, Sune. Let's start with the general tone of the site.

The education mirrors the basic stages of a child's development from childhood to adulthood, which in general reflects the development of humanity through history from our origin, far back in past times up to the present.

This is the kind of Anthro-speak anyone can hear at any parent orientation. Someone who hasn't done much research might wonder if they have somehow missed some universal knowledge about "the basic stages of a child's development" and how it "reflects the development of humanity through history". Is this some universal knowledge about child development or is it something else - an opinion perhaps, a theory of some sort, maybe even Anthroposophy? And just between us, Sune, I'm not sure you realize how over-the-top some of this stuff is - or at least seems to parents. But let's go on...

"The central focus for the Waldorf teacher is the development of that essence in every person that is independent of external appearance, by instilling in his/her pupils an understanding of and appreciation for their background and place in the world, not primarily as members of any specific nation, ethnic group or race, but as members of humanity and world citizens.

The sentence above is so wrong in so many ways... You're basically saying - It doesn't matter your external appearance, or your background or your place in the world, your Waldorf teacher can help you transcend your nation, ethnic group or race to stand up and become a member of humanity and world citizens. : Some of us like to think we're already members of humanity.

"And in the upper grades and high school, this leads in steps to an ever more conscious cultivation of an observing, reflecting and experimental scientific attitude to the world, focusing on building an understanding of what is true, based on personal experience, thinking and judgment.

Someone who is not aware of Waldorf would read the above sentence as something to do with science and logical thought instead of the building of a thinking process that discards practically everything that is known in the field of natural science. "building an understanding of what is true, based on personal experience, thinking and judgment" has little to do with scientific method - in fact it has nothing to do with scientific method. It has everything to do with "spiritual science". It's a question about what it is to "know" something and how that "knowledge" can be arrived at through introspection and without regard to established scientific fact. If Waldorf websites are linking to your website and if parents are supposed to learn anything from your resource, don't you have some obligation to be clear about what you are telling them?

"While anthroposophy forms the philosophical and theoretical basis of the teaching methods used in Waldorf schools and is reflected in the attitudes of many Waldorf teachers and in the general structuring and orientation of Waldorf education during the different stages of development, anthroposophy is not taught as such to the students in the overwhelming majority of Waldorf schools world wide.

"If anthroposophy is taught in some form by an individual teacher, it is done against the basic Waldorf tradition and in complete contradiction of the intention of Waldorf education, as expressed by Rudolf Steiner as the founder of Waldorf education

We've already discussed here how misleading the above statement is... and then the statement below it furthers the deception. Anthroposophy, as a subject is not taught. But Anthroposophy is contained in all subjects, not just in content, but in the way they are conceived, presented and assessed - and clearly what you have expressed here doesn't imply that at all and in fact implies the opposite. Again, misleading to parents.

"In the future Waldorf schools may increasingly be based on school vouchers. This will make a basic Waldorf oriented education freely available to all as one option among others, irrespective of the socioeconomic status of the parents.

Can you support this claim... While I imagine it might be a great hope for Waldorf, that someday poor children might finally get into their schools, I don't see any recent news in support of vouchers. Maybe you know something we don't know? Or are you asking people to ignore the disproportionate number of wealth kids that are in Waldorf while they hold out hope for a new voucher program that might someday bring much-needed diversity to Waldorf schools? If you cannot support the implication of this claim, then I would have to say, again, it is misleading.

Anyway, keep up the good work Sune - some people find this fascinating. Waldorf Answers makes good sense to Anthroposophists but I suspect turns off others from what I can tell. It is, in fact, one of the websites I intend to critically review soon - of course, in great detail. I wish I had more time tonight... but alas...

Pete